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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:18:38 PM EDT
[#1]
 Medal of Honor Warfighter | SEAL Team 6 Combat Training Series Episode 7 -- Breaching |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:20:27 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What percentage of doors will not open? Be precise. You know every door in every school. How often will you be right? And I’m really not trying not to get in a pissing match with you. I think a lot of people are frustrated and feel very helpless. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:28:18 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ouch!!! At least FD has jumped in and realized they need to get in there on an active. It is only training for medical though and not doing entry, which we may need to reconsider. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: We carry these on our fire trucks. This exact model. Pretty much standard equipment that makes commercial doors a breeze. Rabbit tool. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/43482/74E1D432-7AD6-4A08-8C83-EA49B26DF766_jpe-2398048.JPG Need a hell of a lot longer handle being staged blocks away!  Ouch!!! At least FD has jumped in and realized they need to get in there on an active. It is only training for medical though and not doing entry, which we may need to reconsider. Exactly. I would bet a dollar that the FD has more expertise on getting through commercial rated fire doors that the PD does. Use the resources you have instead of twiddling your thumbs. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:28:25 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryThat video cost more to make than many agencies' training budgets. 
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:28:33 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And I’m really not trying not to get in a pissing match with you. I think a lot of people are frustrated and feel very helpless. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What percentage of doors will not open? Be precise. You know every door in every school. How often will you be right? And I’m really not trying not to get in a pissing match with you. I think a lot of people are frustrated and feel very helpless. I would rather die than do nothing. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:34:22 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Put a fucking sawzall in the jamb and cut through the bolt. Do the same with a K12 rotary saw. Both methods can be pretty damn quick with the right blade In what fantasy world is this practical? |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:35:59 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In what fantasy world is this practical? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Put a fucking sawzall in the jamb and cut through the bolt. Do the same with a K12 rotary saw. Both methods can be pretty damn quick with the right blade In what fantasy world is this practical? |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:37:26 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fire fighters will not respond in to a situation thats still active @tc556guy Horse shit! Set a perimeter and fire will stage on a dime. You’d have firemen loaded with haligans, saws, porta-powers, rabbits, axes, saws, San Angelo bars and every other demo device known to man lined up around the fucking block, ready to walk a mile barefoot, through broken glass, hell fire and everything else without a stitch of cover, on PD’s word to get a door open. The only reason you don’t “go now” is because your entry could make things worse than it already is inside. The wisdom used to be not to force the baddies hand. Now, it is much more get in quick and put a stop to it before it gets worse than it already is. But who knows? Maybe intelligence on the ground was that there were too many innocents in the way of the bullet that fuck stick deserved. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:40:03 PM EDT
[#9]
I kept a giant pry-bar in my patrol vehicle trunk when I worked the road, along with rubber door stops (they work both to keep doors open, and keep them closed, to some extent) in my active shooter rig.
Had given thought to getting a post driver and keeping it in the trunk too, but I never did: 
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:44:22 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would rather die than do nothing. And that’s not unusual. Think secondary devices on bomb calls. They are used because people respond to that emotion. And I certainly understand yours and everyone else’s. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:45:12 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In what fantasy world is this practical? I get that some people are not mechanically inclined, but fucks sake! There is not a door in the world that an elementary school kid uses that I can’t get through in under a minute with what’s on any fire truck. Saw or not, I can make door a very temporary obstacle. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:49:04 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In what fantasy world is this practical? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Put a fucking sawzall in the jamb and cut through the bolt. Do the same with a K12 rotary saw. Both methods can be pretty damn quick with the right blade In what fantasy world is this practical? But I would have taken both off my engine and offered them to PD on scene. Both are child proof. Both are straightforward. Enter into slot, cut, open. Much fucking faster that pounding a duckbill of a haligan into the jamb and trying to pull out with it. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:51:54 PM EDT
[#13]
OK, one thing I don't get: Why the heck do any of you "Just ram it with a SUV" people not understand that A) You can't fit a SUV down the hallway of the school, and even if you could, the door in question would be beside you, NOT in front of you, and B) Commercial buildings are built on a raised slab that would stop any patrol car dead in its tracks before it did much more than crack and push in the wall some. No way would there be a man-size hole unless you hit right under a window AND bucked the wall high enough to take out the window, which may or may not be very low probability.
With that, I'm as PO'd as anyone about what we know so far about LEO response. I'll wait for the full story to come out though. I guess the type of Texan LEO that went up against Charles Whitman while civilians and LEO pinned him down with rifle fire from as much as 500 yards away is gone now. 
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:52:33 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And then retreated According to the chief, two of them were shot in the process. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:53:02 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A police Tahoe will takeout the door just use it. Once again, how will the Tahoe get TO the classroom door |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:54:16 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Exactly. I would bet a dollar that the FD has more expertise on getting through commercial rated fire doors that the PD does. Use the resources you have instead of twiddling your thumbs. Once again, fire departments will not respond into an active scene |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:55:05 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would rather die than do nothing. Patton would rather that the other guy die. What does you dying accomplish except creating another victim |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:55:08 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the classroom door was up to standard no you are not getting in. That's the whole point. This has occurred several times in active shooter situations. No, Rural patrol cops are not going to have breaching tools. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:56:39 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @tc556guy Horse shit! Set a perimeter and fire will stage on a dime. You’d have firemen loaded with haligans, saws, porta-powers, rabbits, axes, saws, San Angelo bars and every other demo device known to man lined up around the fucking block, ready to walk a mile barefoot, through broken glass, hell fire and everything else without a stitch of cover, on PD’s word to get a door open. The only reason you don’t “go now” is because your entry could make things worse than it already is inside. The wisdom used to be not to force the baddies hand. Now, it is much more get in quick and put a stop to it before it gets worse than it already is. But who knows? Maybe intelligence on the ground was that there were too many innocents in the way of the bullet that fuck stick deserved. Sorry, but years of experience tells me that neither fire nor EMS will enter an active scene Set a perimeter? There WAS a perimeter at this school and everyone is criticizing the officers on the perimeter. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:57:06 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You tell me bro? What do you do for a living, cop or fireman? How many cops responding to an active shooter have access to a sawzall? There is a way to defeat school locks in every school. A proper active shooter program will/would have addressed that. Let’s just say that through some wizardry, because we are all wizards, that a cop had a sawzall on is belt. It should be on his non dominate side, in a yellow holster, but thats another discussion. How in the world is he going to saw a lock on a door with an armed shooter on the other side? The answer is he isn’t. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:57:12 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: According to the chief, two of them were shot in the process. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: And then retreated According to the chief, two of them were shot in the process. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:58:40 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry, but years of experience tells me that neither fire nor EMS will enter an active scene Set a perimeter? There WAS a perimeter at this school and everyone is criticizing the officers on the perimeter. But yes we are behind cover. We are not front and center with kill teams. We do enter as RTF. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:58:57 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Once again, fire departments will not respond into an active scene Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Exactly. I would bet a dollar that the FD has more expertise on getting through commercial rated fire doors that the PD does. Use the resources you have instead of twiddling your thumbs. Once again, fire departments will not respond into an active scene el oh el |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:59:03 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Patton would rather that the other guy die. What does you dying accomplish except creating another victim Hey! Numb nuts! If he’s busy trying to kill grown ups, who’s job it is to send bad men to hell, he’s not killing kids. ETA: Nineteen dead third and fourth graders. They could have used a quicker, better response. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 8:59:48 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How many cops responding to an active shooter have access to a sawzall? There is a way to defeat school locks in every school. A proper active shooter program will/would have addressed that. Let's just say that through some wizardry, because we are all wizards, that a cop had a sawzall on is belt. It should be on his non dominate side, in a yellow holster, but thats another discussion. How in the world is he going to saw a lock on a door with an armed shooter on the other side? The answer is he isn't. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You tell me bro? What do you do for a living, cop or fireman? How many cops responding to an active shooter have access to a sawzall? There is a way to defeat school locks in every school. A proper active shooter program will/would have addressed that. Let's just say that through some wizardry, because we are all wizards, that a cop had a sawzall on is belt. It should be on his non dominate side, in a yellow holster, but thats another discussion. How in the world is he going to saw a lock on a door with an armed shooter on the other side? The answer is he isn't. Are you a cop or a fireman....or an opinionated GD'er who doesn't know. ETA: here is a hint. Fire and police form a unified command. Fire and police command stand together. While the initial kill team may not have a sawzall or K12, subsequent kill teams will. Every fire truck on scene will have both a K12 and batter powered sawzall with carbide or diamond blades. Those tools would be given to PD and their people could use them....if they were called for. But the answer is YOUR ANSWER IS FUCKING WRONG. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:01:09 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OK, one thing I don't get: Why the heck do any of you "Just ram it with a SUV" people not understand that A) You can't fit a SUV down the hallway of the school, and even if you could, the door in question would be beside you, NOT in front of you, and B) Commercial buildings are built on a raised slab that would stop any patrol car dead in its tracks before it did much more than crack and push in the wall some. No way would there be a man-size hole unless you hit right under a window AND bucked the wall high enough to take out the window, which may or may not be very low probability. With that, I'm as PO'd as anyone about what we know so far about LEO response. I'll wait for the full story to come out though. I guess the type of Texan LEO that went up against Charles Whitman while civilians and LEO pinned him down with rifle fire from as much as 500 yards away is gone now. I was wondering the same thing. Very well articulated. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:02:08 PM EDT
[#27]
So I heard on Fox just now, the shooter was outside shooting for 12 minutes before he went inside?!
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:02:58 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry, but years of experience tells me that neither fire nor EMS will enter an active scene Set a perimeter? There WAS a perimeter at this school and everyone is criticizing the officers on the perimeter. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: @tc556guy Horse shit! Set a perimeter and fire will stage on a dime. You’d have firemen loaded with haligans, saws, porta-powers, rabbits, axes, saws, San Angelo bars and every other demo device known to man lined up around the fucking block, ready to walk a mile barefoot, through broken glass, hell fire and everything else without a stitch of cover, on PD’s word to get a door open. The only reason you don’t “go now” is because your entry could make things worse than it already is inside. The wisdom used to be not to force the baddies hand. Now, it is much more get in quick and put a stop to it before it gets worse than it already is. But who knows? Maybe intelligence on the ground was that there were too many innocents in the way of the bullet that fuck stick deserved. Sorry, but years of experience tells me that neither fire nor EMS will enter an active scene Set a perimeter? There WAS a perimeter at this school and everyone is criticizing the officers on the perimeter. If that’s the truth, then I feel for the people of New York. The first responders there used to be made of tougher stock. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:03:22 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Jesus. Monday morning quarterback commandos. Has anyone been to the school? Was it a fire rated door? Metal frame? Did it open in or out? I'm sure all of GD would have just picked the lock with their EDC items though  |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:03:41 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Every facility I had charge of, had a locked red box that had a master key and master key card available for the fire dept. and the police. They both brought out ever swinging dick to see where they were located and got a complete tour of the entire facility so if they were called, it wouldn't be the first time there. There is NO excuse for that not to be in place at every school. What you don't seem to grasp is that school districts and administrators are largely anti-gun and anti-police. Austin PD has been told straight out that they would NOT get tours or use any school property for training. Been that way since before Columbine. We had to go to San Marcos to use a school building there. The interior of every AISD high school is a complete unknown to first responders patrolling the very neighborhood the school sits in. There certainly isn't a key. Fire has to call for it. This is NOT a rare thing. More like SOP for a lot of school districts. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:03:50 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: EVERY FUCKING ONE THAT RESPONDED IN MY CITY I WORK FOR Are you a cop or a fireman....or an opinionated GD'er who doesn't know. Not on their belt. Not available when responding to an active shooter. If they have time to go out to a fire truck then its probably not an active shooter. And relax, you get way too angry. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:04:08 PM EDT
[#32]
Everyone is missing this one thing.
It's been stated in several articles that the shooter once inside the school, entered an OPEN classroom door,then locked himself in. I'm not blaming the teachers, not at all. But once class is in session those doors are to be closed and locked. Been that way since I last worked in a school over a decade ago. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:05:30 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've lived in the South almost 65 years and only storm doors/screen doors "open out". |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:06:01 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the classroom door was up to standard no you are not getting in. That's the whole point. This has occurred several times in active shooter situations. No, Rural patrol cops are not going to have breaching tools. Yes, rural cops DO have breaching tools. I carry a ram, sledge and Halligan in my car and I am well versed in their use. Every patrol car in the dept has a sledge and several others have rams. I can't imagine we're the only department that has prepared to make forced entry into a structure. Also, as an active shooter instructor and breaching instructor I make sure to cover alternate methods of making entry to the building..., windowws and use of vehicles is top of the list. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:06:06 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did the 18 yo have a key? No, of course not. If he got in the freaking coppers could. Did they shit their collective pants? We were told some days it sucks to be acop, active shooter is one of those days. Get in as fast as you can any Way you can. You don't need a key when the door is open. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:06:25 PM EDT
[#36]
Aim this at the locking bolt and I bet about after 5 second the door would swing free. There should be one in every few police trunks.
https://www.allhandsfire.com/Ventmaster-3120K-Fire-Rescue-Cut-Off-Saw |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:06:27 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hey! Numb nuts! If he’s busy trying to kill grown ups, who’s job it is to send bad men to hell, he’s not killing kids. Back to my question. What good does a well intentioned guy who's letting his emotions get the best of him going to do by going and becoming a dead citizen. I get it that people want to "do something" in these scenarios. But almost all of the recommendations in these threads aren't going to work. You cant drive an SUV down a school hallway to get at the classroom door. You aren't going to batter a wall down with a sledgehammer. And so on and so on. People are throwing a bunch of stuff out there that they think would work. Good for them. But its not going to work, and they'd get themselves killed for nothing to show for it |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:07:34 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: So it sounds like the local cops claim part of the problem is they claim they couldn't locate a key. Regardless of whether there's more to the story is breaching a door really a task beyond a regular patrol officer? I thought about it because I know a police officer who lost of the tip of a finger when he accidentally got his finger between a battering ram and a door. Great police officer, accidents happen. But the point is the old Smallville, NY cops back home used to breach doors and they were regular old small town cops. I only remember being aware of the ram being used when there was a warrant though so I assume it was in a closet at the police station most of the time, not in a car trunk. If I had to get into a door I'm confident I could do it with a sledge hammer. At least unrelated to needing a team of riflemen to cover you and then enter and clear the room. There used to be a TV show where men competed at various "tactical stuff" and one of them was breaching doors by mule kicking, using a sledge and, I think, a ram. @Aimless I don’t know how they do it in Texas, but where I work we have keys that allow up to enter any door at any public school in our county. We also have access to sledge hammers, crow bars and other tools within our squad in separate cars. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:07:52 PM EDT
[#39]
Well what started as an interesting thread on door breaching has now gone to shit.
I did learn some things from people with door demo experience in this thread, so thanks for that. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:07:55 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What you don't seem to grasp is that school districts and administrators are largely anti-gun and anti-police. Austin PD has been told straight out that they would NOT get tours or use any school property for training. Been that way since before Columbine. We had to go to San Marcos to use a school building there. The interior of every AISD high school is a complete unknown to first responders patrolling the very neighborhood the school sits in. There certainly isn't a key. Fire has to call for it. This is NOT a rare thing. More like SOP for a lot of school districts. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Every facility I had charge of, had a locked red box that had a master key and master key card available for the fire dept. and the police. They both brought out ever swinging dick to see where they were located and got a complete tour of the entire facility so if they were called, it wouldn't be the first time there. There is NO excuse for that not to be in place at every school. What you don't seem to grasp is that school districts and administrators are largely anti-gun and anti-police. Austin PD has been told straight out that they would NOT get tours or use any school property for training. Been that way since before Columbine. We had to go to San Marcos to use a school building there. The interior of every AISD high school is a complete unknown to first responders patrolling the very neighborhood the school sits in. There certainly isn't a key. Fire has to call for it. This is NOT a rare thing. More like SOP for a lot of school districts. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:08:39 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m a random nobody and I have a fire extinguisher, first aid kit, and a modified Stanley Fubar in my car. It’s definitely Monday morning quarterbacking now, but why don’t rural cops have entry gear? You realize EVERYTHING that goes in that car has to be approved by policy and the city lawyers, right? I was written up for having an axe way back in the day. It was not for breaching, but for cutting downed trees out of the street. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:09:00 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not on their belt. Not available when responding to an active shooter. If they have time to go out to a fire truck then its probably not an active shooter. And relax, you get way too angry. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: EVERY FUCKING ONE THAT RESPONDED IN MY CITY I WORK FOR Are you a cop or a fireman....or an opinionated GD'er who doesn't know. Not on their belt. Not available when responding to an active shooter. If they have time to go out to a fire truck then its probably not an active shooter. And relax, you get way too angry. You have no concept of how these things work, IT APPEARS. Maybe you are holding back, or maybe you are just trolling. But with what you have said, you don't have the slightest clue. Its a very fluid situation. There are multiple teams that go inside. Fire, in my city, is dispatched and responds WITH police. We do not work with kill teams, but can give them access to tools. We do work in the RTF teams, stopping the bleed and extracting. There is a lot more but why waste the time explaining. You are already not grasping the simplest of what could go on. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:10:15 PM EDT
[#43]
Why didn't they go through a window?
Why is there no mention of windows at all? Kids jumped out the windows, what is stopping someone from shooting from outside in? wtf? |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:10:49 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What you don't seem to grasp is that school districts and administrators are largely anti-gun and anti-police. Austin PD has been told straight out that they would NOT get tours or use any school property for training. Been that way since before Columbine. We had to go to San Marcos to use a school building there. The interior of every AISD high school is a complete unknown to first responders patrolling the very neighborhood the school sits in. There certainly isn't a key. Fire has to call for it. This is NOT a rare thing. More like SOP for a lot of school districts. We have done all our active shooter training to date exclusively in schools in the summer. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:11:21 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You don't need a key when the door is open. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:12:33 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If the classroom door was up to standard no you are not getting in. That's the whole point. This has occurred several times in active shooter situations. No, Rural patrol cops are not going to have breaching tools. You would be incorrect |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:12:44 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You realize EVERYTHING that goes in that car has to be approved by policy and the city lawyers, right? I was written up for having an axe way back in the day. It was not for breaching, but for cutting downed trees out of the street. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:12:59 PM EDT
[#48]
I’m trying to hold my outrage until accurate information is released but the Uvalde PD is doing themselves no favors by letting this issue swirl around full of conflicting “facts.”
If the shooter did in fact do all his killing in one classroom behind a locked hardened door, none of the methods discussed in the thread would have been fast enough to open the door before he was done. And if the shooter has stopped firing, and is in a barricaded situation, and you don’t know if the other side is a hostage situation with live kids, or a sick fuck in a room full of corpses, you have a tougher decision to make about breaching because if it is a hostage situation, you don’t want to precipitate killings. I don’t think this was the “standard” shooter roaming the campus, available to confront, situation. I do know that aggressively entering, by yourself if necessary, has been standard protocol for decades. I imagine most patrol guys have at least a sledge hammer in the car? That would be a tough task with the school doors here. |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:13:05 PM EDT
[#49]
 Attached File Attached FileI know this is just an example someone posted, but I would like to know why everyone assumes that the door is the only point of entry? |
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Posted: 5/26/2022 9:13:43 PM EDT
[#50]
I learned to breach when I was a Prison officer on the Disturbance Control team, we learned to breach everything from the lightest interior doors to heavily hardened cell doors. I now work as maintenance in one of the country's largest school systems. There are several methods to breach school doors with minor equipment there are other ways to breach the building that don't involve doors, but you have to be willing to attempt an entry instead of hiding while children are slaughtered.
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