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Posted: 2/26/2021 1:56:17 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Relying on a consumable item to ensure longevity of the engine is a huge engineering oversight. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I agree with that. OP is saying the filters are less restrictive, increasing flow and decreasing pressure. Relying on a consumable item to ensure longevity of the engine is a huge engineering oversight. 
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Posted: 2/26/2021 1:56:49 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lol, no. I don't know what to tell you. I'm one of the lead electrical people here anyway. The lead mechanical guru could explain it better than I ever could anyway. All I know is that Hyundai does some stuff strangly, and aftermarket filters have a history of fucking our shit up and I sometimes I don't have the time to look up every single detail why. I do the occasionals short black or engine replacement but most the time I am doing things like rebuilding a steering album, Diagnosing a sensor or can line communication failure, Other weird customer concerns or sun roof issues, I get all the weird issues so all the Flats are not burdened with it, only one of them can do all the stuff I can as well any way and that is said lead guru who is not quite twice my age. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 1:56:49 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know you have a wealth of knowledge with Kia/Hyundai's. But why, why would someone install a Delco filter on a KIA or Hyundai? We stock Kia/Hyundai filters in my shop for a reason. If you're driving a Kia/Hyundai, you've already demonstrated poor decision making skills. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 1:57:48 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you're driving a Kia/Hyundai, you've already demonstrated poor decision making skills. 
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Posted: 2/26/2021 1:58:27 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Its like 2000s all over again were some non oem filters killed a shit ton of Rio/Accent engines. Kia/Hyundai killed those engines, not any filters. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 1:59:14 PM EDT
[#6]
Not a problem for me. I have never owned a Hyundai or Kia and never will.
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Posted: 2/26/2021 1:59:14 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oil filter not cuasing enough restriction We use the filter itself to raise pressure, very old school. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What's causing the low oil pressure? Intake vacuum? Sounds like a engineering problem with the engine. Oil filter not cuasing enough restriction We use the filter itself to raise pressure, very old school.  |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 1:59:19 PM EDT
[#8]
Yet another reason not to buy a hyundai......
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Posted: 2/26/2021 1:59:41 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How does more oil flow = killed bearings? Does does not equal pressure. See the human body for examples. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:00:43 PM EDT
[#10]
If this thread had a theme song, this would be it.
 Greenskeepers - Lotion |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:02:16 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Kia/Hyundai killed those engines, not any filters. Well to be fair timing belt quality at the time was not the best. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:03:41 PM EDT
[#12]
The factory recommended filters are not expensive or difficult to find/buy.
I've used nothing buy Hyundai recommended filters (I stop by the Hyundai place every couple of years and buy a couple) and Mobil 1 oil in my Coupe. Ten years, 73,000 miles, no issues. Most people just don't care about their cars. Gonna buy/lease them for a few years and then get rid of them and get another little car to drive. Don't care about curb rash on the wheels, don't care about parking lot door dings, don't care about cigarette ash burn holes in the seats, etc., etc., etc. If they get the oil/filter changed they probably take the car to a local oil/filter change shop and who know what they buy? The cheapest filters/oil they can get - to raise profit margins?? |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:04:08 PM EDT
[#13]
God danm
Just trying to prevent people from blowing up their engines Is that so wrong? |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:04:48 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree with that. OP is saying the filters are less restrictive, increasing flow and decreasing pressure. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It makes no difference. The oil has to flow through it all. A restriction at any point will slow it down. Besides, the filter can't be at the end, because oil just drains back to the pan after it's run it's course. Pressure is the result of LESS flow. It doesn't cause more flow. OP is saying the filters are less restrictive, increasing flow and decreasing pressure. Correct, and that is GOOD for the motor, not bad. The filter is between the motor and the pump. Higher pressure between the filter and the pump would mean that less oil is getting to the motor, which would be bad. OP is saying that there is not enough pressure between the filter and pump, which makes no sense. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:04:50 PM EDT
[#15]
Is this a Kia forum?????
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:05:28 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: God danm Just trying to prevent people from blowing up their engines Is that so wrong?
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:06:10 PM EDT
[#17]
I believe it's an issue of the burst pressure on Kia filters being higher than the aftermarket filters, the aftermarket filters balloon out and fail because of pressure spikes in the oil system, also has to do with changing viscosity of oil used in these engines to a "wrong" viscosity
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:06:44 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: God danm Just trying to prevent people from blowing up their engines Is that so wrong? no it's not wrong, but after all this time you don't know your audience? i could almost guarantee no active member on this forum would have the problem you described. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:07:00 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If it's only an issue with one company's filters and everyone else's work alright, then I'd say you're wrong. It's an engineering issue with whoever designed the offending filters. Eta: Ok, maybe it's a wash. Kia is retarded for relying on the filter to increase pressure. Ford and their 6.0 comes to mind. Aftermarket filters caused havoc in those. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:07:23 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I mean here our tsb on it even, from 2012, has not changed much. https://www.kiasoulforums.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=1920,fit=scale-down/http://www.kiasoulforums.com/members/7226-conwelpic-albums-kia-info-maintenance-picture109145-tsb-114-oil-filter-viscosity-update-june-24-2014.jpg All those symptoms sound like normal Kia noises. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:07:47 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe it's an issue of the burst pressure on Kia filters being higher than the aftermarket filters, the aftermarket filters balloon out and fail because of pressure spikes in the oil system, also has to do with changing viscosity of oil used in these engines to a "wrong" viscosity Viscosity issues only come into effect when someone put say 1030 into 020 engine for us |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:08:22 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because it showed up in an interchange book and happened to be on the shelf? Because it was taken in trade at a GM dealer? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I know you have a wealth of knowledge with Kia/Hyundai's. But why, why would someone install a Delco filter on a KIA or Hyundai? We stock Kia/Hyundai filters in my shop for a reason. Delco has filters for virtually the entire auto industry. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:08:34 PM EDT
[#23]
Yeah AC Delco died in the early 2ks.
Flat garbage now |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:08:40 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: God danm Just trying to prevent people from blowing up their engines Is that so wrong? Nah... we are shitting on Kia's at the moment. Thanks though! (I am a Jeep owner... I have my own electric gremlins going on, the most recent is it thinks the passanger door is always open. I know what the issue is, already traced the offending harness that has been rubbing on a fender mount. I will fix it when it is warm) I didn't mean to cause an issue, I am a diagnosis/root cause kind of person. 
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:09:35 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know what to tell you. I'm one of the lead electrical people here anyway. The lead mechanical guru could explain it better than I ever could anyway. All I know is that Hyundai does some stuff strangly, and aftermarket filters have a history of fucking our shit up and I sometimes I don't have the time to look up every single detail why. I do the occasionals short black or engine replacement but most the time I am doing things like rebuilding a steering album, Diagnosing a sensor or can line communication failure, Other weird customer concerns or sun roof issues, I get all the weird issues so all the Flats are not burdened with it, only one of them can do all the stuff I can as well any way and that is said lead guru who is not quite twice my age. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Lol, no. I don't know what to tell you. I'm one of the lead electrical people here anyway. The lead mechanical guru could explain it better than I ever could anyway. All I know is that Hyundai does some stuff strangly, and aftermarket filters have a history of fucking our shit up and I sometimes I don't have the time to look up every single detail why. I do the occasionals short black or engine replacement but most the time I am doing things like rebuilding a steering album, Diagnosing a sensor or can line communication failure, Other weird customer concerns or sun roof issues, I get all the weird issues so all the Flats are not burdened with it, only one of them can do all the stuff I can as well any way and that is said lead guru who is not quite twice my age. Maybe this will help. Look where the filter is in relation to the pump and rest of the motor. 
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:10:46 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why do you hate job security? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: God danm Just trying to prevent people from blowing up their engines Is that so wrong? OP hates making money. Gets in the way of arf time. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:10:52 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct, and that is GOOD for the motor, not bad. The filter is between the motor and the pump. Higher pressure between the filter and the pump would mean that less oil is getting to the motor, which would be bad. OP is saying that there is not enough pressure between the filter and pump, which makes no sense. More modern engines with tight clearances probably don't need a ton of oil, the pressure to get it everywhere would be more important. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:11:05 PM EDT
[#28]
I'm guessing there is a problem with leak down and subsequent oil starvation, probably worse on cold start. It's an age old problem related to oil filter construction and the internal check valve. We had the same thing at GM many years ago. My Nissan VG30E will clatter on cold start if I don't use Nissan filters.
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:11:20 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Viscosity issues only come into effect when someone put say 1030 into 020 engine for us The article is mentioning the legal problems with Kia changing out filters and oil to go back to the filters/oil Kia recommends, shows many engines being replaced because of the issue |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:11:48 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: God danm Just trying to prevent people from blowing up their engines Is that so wrong? First step for not blowing up your Kia engine is not owning a Kia.
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:16:33 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't fully understand what OP is trying to say myself. I was only suggesting how it could work given the information provided. I'd like to see a diagram, which would clear everything up. More modern engines with tight clearances probably don't need a ton of oil, the pressure to get it everywhere would be more important. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Correct, and that is GOOD for the motor, not bad. The filter is between the motor and the pump. Higher pressure between the filter and the pump would mean that less oil is getting to the motor, which would be bad. OP is saying that there is not enough pressure between the filter and pump, which makes no sense. More modern engines with tight clearances probably don't need a ton of oil, the pressure to get it everywhere would be more important. Tight clearances = more surface area = more shear friction = more heat Oil is mostly there to transport heat, so tight engines require 7 quarts of 0 weight. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:16:45 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oil filter not cuasing enough restriction We use the filter itself to raise pressure, very old school. The only way that happens is with the use of a bypass filter... which is not something any passenger car OEM I'm aware of, uses. This sounds like your typical full-flow filter that either has an absolute rating too low for a given application, or their bypass valve is not opening at certain conditions, resulting in a large pressure drop. Pressure always drops after a restriction. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:17:59 PM EDT
[#33]
I'm just trying to understand how a oil filter raises oil pressure is a good thing
When you oil an engine it leaks out everywhere. It leaks out of the main and rod bearings it leaks out of the cam bearings.. i mean have you ever seen an oil return hole inside an engine (not drain holes) that pressurized oil is fed to then returned to the oil pan after its used? Lol Where do you put the filter at the end of a system that bleeds out everywhere to raise the system pressure? |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:21:26 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm guessing there is a problem with leak down and subsequent oil starvation, probably worse on cold start. It's an age old problem related to oil filter construction and the internal check valve. We had the same thing at GM many years ago. My Nissan VG30E will clatter on cold start if I don't use Nissan filters. The guy who mentioned oil pump pressures exceeding the cheap filter rating & breaking shit internally (such as a check valve, depending on its design) seems more likely than this "squeezing oil through the engine between the pump and filter" thing. That or the oil passages are designed so poorly that increased oil velocity due to wimp-ass filter flowing past a port causes its static pressure to drop & stop flowing (Bernoulli principle or Pitot tube effect), starving that area of the engine of oil. That's definitely a Kia problem, though. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:21:28 PM EDT
[#35]
That is some horrible engineering then! Been making cars for over 100 years, why does this shit still happen?
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:23:37 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm just trying to understand how a oil filter raises oil pressure is a good thing When you oil an engine it leaks out everywhere. It leaks out of the main and rod bearings it leaks out of the cam bearings.. i mean have you ever seen an oil return hole inside an engine (not drain holes) that pressurized oil is fed to then returned to the oil pan after its used? Lol Where do you put the filter at the end of a system that bleeds out everywhere to raise the system pressure? I don't know why, I'm not an engineer, i can only guess that it somehow affects oil return or something. All I know is that oil filters can cause a low pressure event for the system which can starve the entire thing of oil, I do not know completely why, just is. Eventually this is only going to matter so much anyway, Dealer management is inquiring on when the training centres gonna be open again because of all the Coming electric vehicle models and I would be one of the 1st people going to get training on it |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:24:12 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm just trying to understand how a oil filter raises oil pressure is a good thing When you oil an engine it leaks out everywhere. It leaks out of the main and rod bearings it leaks out of the cam bearings.. i mean have you ever seen an oil return hole inside an engine (not drain holes) that pressurized oil is fed to then returned to the oil pan after its used? Lol Where do you put the filter at the end of a system that bleeds out everywhere to raise the system pressure? More importantly, "everywhere" is all at the same pressure behind the pump...unless you have static/dynamic pressure effects going on where the ports split off the main inlet. Maybe Kias use some crazy M C Escher type lubrication system? 
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:25:40 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know why, I'm not an engineer, i can only guess that it somehow affects oil return or something. All I know is that oil filters can cause a low pressure event for the system which can starve the entire thing of oil, I do not know completely why, just is. Eventually this is only going to matter so much anyway, Dealer management is inquiring on when the training centres gonna be open again because of all the Coming electric vehicle models and I would be one of the 1st people going to get training on it |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:26:43 PM EDT
[#39]
So is engine damage/failure caused by a non-OEM filter covered under factory warranty?
ETA: As per screenshot above- probably not. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:31:29 PM EDT
[#40]
@littlepony - if you were to buy a Palisade which option package(s) would you get? Are you confident in its powertrain to last 250k+ miles with proper maintenance?
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:31:30 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't fully understand what OP is trying to say myself. I was only suggesting how it could work given the information provided. I'd like to see a diagram, which would clear everything up. More modern engines with tight clearances probably don't need a ton of oil, the pressure to get it everywhere would be more important. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Correct, and that is GOOD for the motor, not bad. The filter is between the motor and the pump. Higher pressure between the filter and the pump would mean that less oil is getting to the motor, which would be bad. OP is saying that there is not enough pressure between the filter and pump, which makes no sense. More modern engines with tight clearances probably don't need a ton of oil, the pressure to get it everywhere would be more important. That's not how pressure and flow work. The pump doesn't provide pressure. It provides dlow. Pressure is the resistance to that flow, caused by the tight passages and restrictions in the engine. The pump has to be able to provide flow, despite the back pressure. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:32:00 PM EDT
[#42]
Good heads up; if the OEM filters are easy to find and of good quality; it is good to use those.
The oil flow picture don't look quite right; but that could easily be an error on my side. What looks odd is the far right side diagram - return line location/connection |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:33:10 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm guessing there is a problem with leak down and subsequent oil starvation, probably worse on cold start. It's an age old problem related to oil filter construction and the internal check valve. We had the same thing at GM many years ago. My Nissan VG30E will clatter on cold start if I don't use Nissan filters. That was my guess. It probably loses prime, and won't re-prime itself at idle. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:34:34 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why the hell would you pump dirty sump oil through the entire engine and then filter it right before putting it back into the sump? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I think the confusion is over where the filter is placed in the system. From what you're saying it seems like it would be at the end. Others seem to be thinking it's at the beginning. Why the hell would you pump dirty sump oil through the entire engine and then filter it right before putting it back into the sump?  Car designs are dumb, but low pressure. Typically you want them on the return side. Especially with high pressure systems so you don’t nuke the filter. 
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:36:16 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm just trying to understand how a oil filter raises oil pressure is a good thing When you oil an engine it leaks out everywhere. It leaks out of the main and rod bearings it leaks out of the cam bearings.. i mean have you ever seen an oil return hole inside an engine (not drain holes) that pressurized oil is fed to then returned to the oil pan after its used? Lol Where do you put the filter at the end of a system that bleeds out everywhere to raise the system pressure? Raising system pressure like that could only result from reducing flow throughout the entire engine, providing less oil everywhere. That's not how it works. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:36:35 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's not how pressure and flow work. The pump doesn't provide pressure. It provides dlow. Pressure is the resistance to that flow, caused by the tight passages and restrictions in the engine. The pump has to be able to provide flow, despite the back pressure. What I don't know is what the oil system in whatever kia engine OP is talking about looks like. How would a less restrictive oil filter cause lower pressure then? |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:36:53 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A more restrictive oil filter will do that, I understand that. But manufacturers need to accommodate the use of any off the shelf product that is available. Knucklehead counter jockey at O'Reilly's won't care if he even knows enough to care. The engineering needs to be done on the front end with consumer products like that Forte to prevent issues.. Having been in manufacturing for most of my life, you have to anticipate idiots being idiots. I am not shitting on you or Kia. A less restrictive oil filter shouldn't be an issue, but it it is. You're saying that OEMs should make their engines to work with aftermarket filters? That's some backwards ass logic. Aftermarket manufacturers should make their filters to meet OEM specs before they list them as compatible |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:39:28 PM EDT
[#48]
Kia can't accept certain oil filters without destroying it's engine. Meanwhile, not only does Toyota have no issues with oil filters many of their midsize trucks have the filter mounted conveniently on the top of the engine. That's quality.
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:40:09 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That was my guess. It probably loses prime, and won't re-prime itself at idle. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm guessing there is a problem with leak down and subsequent oil starvation, probably worse on cold start. It's an age old problem related to oil filter construction and the internal check valve. We had the same thing at GM many years ago. My Nissan VG30E will clatter on cold start if I don't use Nissan filters. That was my guess. It probably loses prime, and won't re-prime itself at idle. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 2:42:47 PM EDT
[#50]
Has this been reported with any other brands/manufacturers?
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