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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:05:27 PM EDT
[#1]
Welcome to modern MBA tardery.
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:06:32 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some companies, those usually run by the accountants, seem content to be the training ground for their competitors. You just condensed several chapters on “why some companies are fucked up” into one sentence. That’s impressive! 
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:09:07 PM EDT
[#3]
You guys have the pay issue covered, how about the non-pay bullshit? Last place I worked they had a trophy for terminal of the year. Our terminal had won it for 5 consecutive years. The most we got for that was a sweatshirt with the company logo embroidered on it. No pay raise, no bonus check, no extra PTO hours-nothing for all us minions except a sweatshirt. And the terminal manager actually expects us to care about getting the trophy. When it is mentioned that why should we care we get nothing out of it all we hear is crickets. The only reason we won that trophy was because the manager would not spend a dime of his discretionary budget, which kept the profit margin up. It took years of drivers complaining to finally get new pallet jacks to replace the POS ones that would drop the pallet mid move due to leaky hydraulic cylinder seals. I am sure the manager parleyed the trophy for best terminal into pay raises for himself though.
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:16:46 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: At my old work place they used to look at warehouse/operations people as if they were disposable...how hard can it be to hire warehouse people who pick, pack and ship orders?!?!?! They were looking to save some operational expense so they fired a 47 y/o guy in warehouse who worked there for 20+ years. He knew and had experience in everything about the operations and could fill any position as needed. He was paid about $42k per year with maybe $2k bonus. They replaced him with a $12/hr kid who promptly made some serious mistakes on orders which lead to loosing their single largest customer (annually $700k revenue) within 5 months. They were going to fire the kid but before that happened he claimed leg and back injury while at work and promptly filed long term disability and sued. They ended up hiring 2 new people to replace the kid which ended up costing more than the original guy. Saw this bullshit first hand at a previous job. Corporate chased away the terminal manager and the inbound and outbound supervisors to the competition by trying to save 5K a year on the outbound supe's pay. The managers and supes we got after that in a rotating door fashion wound up costing the company at least hundreds of thousands in revenue due to wasteful truck routing, pissing off customers, etc. But corporate spent a dollar to save a dime, and they are soooo smart! |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:18:01 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My company had that realization recently. Long time guy got an offer he couldn't refuse from a competitor. I got a 20% raise almost immediately. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:20:40 PM EDT
[#6]
Your company replaces people when they leave?
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:21:00 PM EDT
[#7]
This is why I'm the tech industry you see a lot of people changing jobs every year or two.
I haven't been in the same company for more than 2 years since 2012 I think. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:21:33 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is no such thing as fair...the highest bidder gets your labor. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I don't negotiate when I find a new position, I feel like it gives the employer an unfair advantage I agree, they should make sure people aren't looking for new jobs in the first place There is no such thing as fair...the highest bidder gets your labor. Not relevant to my comment An employer shouldn't get a second chance when you find a new job, then they'll be conditioned to think your pay doesn't matter, they'll just worry about it when you find a new job and come in to negotiate your departure If everyone that can find more money leaves, it keeps the employer on point There's nothing worse than an employer that thinks they have the power. It's a balanced relationship |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:23:17 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You will always get more pay and advancement by changing jobs Agreed |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:24:43 PM EDT
[#10]
Out of the blue company gave me a promotion last year. It came with a big raise. Then they called me back I two weeks later snd said after review the raise wasn’t big enough, here’s a few more % points.
This year they told me I’m now eligible for an annual bonus that will be based on a decent % of my annual salary. I have very specific skills and would be very hard to replace. My company isn’t perfect by any stretch, but the people at the top understand retention. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:25:41 PM EDT
[#11]
My company realizes that people will leave for more money. Every couple years they will give a raise across the board to be aligned with competitors. Unfortunately it takes a lot of good people leaving first before it happens.
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:27:14 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I disagree with that part in bold because sometimes employers are not up on current market rates and need to see there is an actual offer on the table before they will believe it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I was always told never take the counter offer - if you were worth it, they should be giving it to you already. I disagree with that part in bold because sometimes employers are not up on current market rates and need to see there is an actual offer on the table before they will believe it. Yep that's true. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:28:30 PM EDT
[#13]
That's pretty much how the hotel industry works. You won't keep a good person for long. I knew a bunch of folks that left, went to another place just to come back so they could get a much larger pay out.
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:29:28 PM EDT
[#14]
I don’t either. Que sera sera.
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:29:40 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You just condensed several chapters on “why some companies are fucked up” into one sentence. That’s impressive! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Some companies, those usually run by the accountants, seem content to be the training ground for their competitors. You just condensed several chapters on “why some companies are fucked up” into one sentence. That’s impressive! When the accountants start running the company it’s only a matter of time before it’s dead. It can certainly continue to exist for a long time afterwards, but it’s just a zombie company. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:31:11 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've seen this all my life in sales. As soon as the sales force has an AMAZING year, corporate finds a way to raise the bar and cut payouts. It usually backfires. Usually that ball starts rolling because some manager somewhere gets his or her pride stung because a commission-based salesman made more $$ than him. “That’s just not right!!! How dare a first-level employee make more than me, a manager/VP/CEO!!!” |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:33:00 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep that's true. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I was always told never take the counter offer - if you were worth it, they should be giving it to you already. I disagree with that part in bold because sometimes employers are not up on current market rates and need to see there is an actual offer on the table before they will believe it. Yep that's true. Agreed, that's horrible advice. A business represents their interests which is to pay you as little as possible and you represent your interests which is typical to want as much pay as possible. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:33:04 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When the accountants start running the company it’s only a matter of time before it’s dead. It can certainly continue to exist for a long time afterwards, but it’s just a zombie company. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Some companies, those usually run by the accountants, seem content to be the training ground for their competitors. You just condensed several chapters on “why some companies are fucked up” into one sentence. That’s impressive! When the accountants start running the company it’s only a matter of time before it’s dead. It can certainly continue to exist for a long time afterwards, but it’s just a zombie company. That's true...and also there are a lot of companies in certain sectors that should not be traded publicly. Look at WholeFoods. Profitable company but not a company that could have exponential growth quarter after quarter. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:34:14 PM EDT
[#19]
You can be pro active about your salary in your own company too. Just asking for a raise is usually denied but if you have a business case with industry comps you may have a better chance.
Also keep track of your contributions and deliverables. My workload increased 400% so I it together a powerpoint illustrating that and asked for an increase. They said no but suggested I apply for another position within the company that had a better salary by about 25 percent. So I did, and got the better position. A year later one of my colleagues got promoted to manager and wanted to hire me back on his team. We discussed it and I told him I was not interested in a lateral move. He came back with an 8% increase. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:35:15 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When the accountants start running the company it's only a matter of time before it's dead. It can certainly continue to exist for a long time afterwards, but it's just a zombie company. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:37:27 PM EDT
[#21]
I just bumped all my hourly people $1.50/hr because the place 10 miles down the road bumped their people $1.50/hr to attract more new hires. I hated to do it, but I need more staff right now and can't afford to lose folks.
Of course some of my employees where dumbfounded. I even had one lady ask if it meant that she had to work for me 5 years or something, and of course, others were pretty happy. I'll probably have to bump them at least another dollar before the year ends. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:38:08 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not relevant to my comment An employer shouldn't get a second chance when you find a new job, then they'll be conditioned to think your pay doesn't matter, they'll just worry about it when you find a new job and come in to negotiate your departure If everyone that can find more money leaves, it keeps the employer on point There's nothing worse than an employer that thinks they have the power. It's a balanced relationship It is relevant...everyone gets a chance...just as long their checks clear. If finding another job is what it takes to get the raise I desire...I don’t care...the end result is all I care about. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:39:19 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I just bumped all my hourly people $1.50/hr because the place 10 miles down the road bumped their people $1.50/hr to attract more new hires. I hated to do it, but I need more staff right now and can't afford to lose folks. Of course some of my employees where dumbfounded. I even had one lady ask if it meant that she had to work for me 5 years or something, and of course, others were pretty happy. I'll probably have to bump them at least another dollar before the year ends. You get it...good on you |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:40:00 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Welcome to most service depts. at auto dealerships. Because of the poor labor times paid by the manufacturers people are leaving right and left. Then the dealership owners think I will raise the labor rate for customer pay work so they loose those customers. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If your company is set up where key positions require retention...it might not be a bad idea to make sure those people are paid near the top of their pay scale in that industry. Sitting there with your dick in your hand each time someone quits for a better pay and scrambling for 6-10 months while an appropriate person is hired and trained can’t be more efficient than paying them to stay. I get that some jobs are set up to be entry level across all educations and skill sets and the expectation is to see a 2-5 year turnaround, but these aren’t key positions. I love it even more when the employer tries to match the competing offer...pay that amount in the first place so people in those roles don’t even begin to look for other employment. Welcome to most service depts. at auto dealerships. Because of the poor labor times paid by the manufacturers people are leaving right and left. Then the dealership owners think I will raise the labor rate for customer pay work so they loose those customers. Yep |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:40:28 PM EDT
[#25]
It’s cheaper in the long run to overwork and underpay your old employees than to pay market rates for all of them.
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:43:02 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They don't care because they expect the other employees to pick up the slack. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:45:00 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is relevant...everyone gets a chance...just as long their checks clear. If finding another job is what it takes to get the raise I desire...I don’t care...the end result is all I care about. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Not relevant to my comment An employer shouldn't get a second chance when you find a new job, then they'll be conditioned to think your pay doesn't matter, they'll just worry about it when you find a new job and come in to negotiate your departure If everyone that can find more money leaves, it keeps the employer on point There's nothing worse than an employer that thinks they have the power. It's a balanced relationship It is relevant...everyone gets a chance...just as long their checks clear. If finding another job is what it takes to get the raise I desire...I don’t care...the end result is all I care about. I want an employer that keeps up with market rates, not one that waits for me to do all the work to show them a market rate I don't want to go on a job search every couple years to prove what I'm worth on the market An employer doesn't deserve a second chance, it's an imbalance in the relationship |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:46:59 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was always told never take the counter offer - if you were worth it, they should be giving it to you already. As far as discussing salaries... some of us work for the gubmint and our salaries are available via public records request, and get requested every 9-15 months and published in some newspaper or online. So discussion of them has always been discouraged, but never against any rule. For any young guys following along (say 18-30) .... I was thinking about pursuing a masters or PhD in psychology about 13 years ago. To make a long story , the local State U had this big 3 ring binder behind the circulation desk that everybody called “The Book”. The Book listed all the salaries of everybody at the State U. I flipped to the psychology department. All the professors had to have a PhD. There were 20 or 30 of them listed there. Only 4 prof’s made more than $50,000 a year. I basically said “FUCK THAT SHIT!" I made more money being a carpenter. Soooo....you young guys could use that as a barometer of what a particular field in your area is getting paid. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:49:27 PM EDT
[#29]
My wife works for a company that makes it a point to not loose good talent because of pay or work/life balance. Wife likely to retire for there (in 20+ years) if the culture remains the same
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:54:57 PM EDT
[#30]
Trade jobs can pay pretty good with little training if you're a quick learner and hard worker, but you have to push to get the money.
Be sure your employer knows that you know you're important, don't need to be a dick, it's just business. Like buying a car, be ready to walk, don't bluff. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 3:06:36 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Many companies have the attitude that "everyone is replaceable". But they forget to ask "at what cost". Losing the knowledge that someone had from 10 years of working there, knowing the ins and outs of every system, and knowing why those ins and outs existed in the first place is not something you can just buy. The loss of knowledge and efficiency is rarely considered when deciding to keep people.  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 3:08:48 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wage compression is real. Best way for financial advancement is employment with a industry competitor. Networking is a critical skill. More vital is a skill stack that allows for it. Some jobs/careers run out of islands, quickly. If you're too specialized, or your position is unique enough, you can't frog hop forever. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 3:10:44 PM EDT
[#33]
I owned a recruiting firm for a good number of years. Many companies have no idea what others are paying, and get sticker shock when they find out what it's going to cost to replace them.
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Posted: 2/25/2021 3:12:56 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Companies that don't figure out compensation quickly get eaten by their competition. Self resolving issue. As an employee, do your research going in. My last two employers would not counter offer so I moved on. Both went out of business within a year. How do senior executives get their positions if they make decisions like this? |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 3:14:02 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hah. Every corporation views the employee salary as a bottomless pit of thirsty overhead. *Nods head in Joseph Stalin 
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Posted: 2/25/2021 3:14:35 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Welcome to modern MBA tardery. This. I was just about to post the same and I saw this one. This is how they are trained. The problem is the out of touch/date assholes teaching these courses. If I were running a company, an MBA would be an immediate ref flag against hiring anyone into a management position. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 3:14:59 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I disagree with that part in bold because sometimes employers are not up on current market rates and need to see there is an actual offer on the table before they will believe it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I was always told never take the counter offer - if you were worth it, they should be giving it to you already. I disagree with that part in bold because sometimes employers are not up on current market rates and need to see there is an actual offer on the table before they will believe it. That's a management failure. If the first they know that their salaries are too low is when people start bailing, they're WAY behind the power curve. I work in IT, I'm absorbing knowledge from the one long-time employee (one retired just as I started) as fast as I can, I suspect the reason he's not in the group I'm in (which was just formed) was because they bumped him into a position where they can pay him more just because of the institutional knowledge he has, he's pretty much by himself on the org chart. My boss estimates we'd have at least six months of pain trying to sort things out if something were to happen to him today. That's six months of just trying to figure out what he already knows, not doing any other project work, upgrades, etc... |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 3:17:26 PM EDT
[#38]
Best way to move up is to move out. That's the way the game is played these days. Being loyal to an employee or employer is a thing of the past. True in sports and business.
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Posted: 2/25/2021 3:18:37 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You guys have the pay issue covered, how about the non-pay bullshit? Last place I worked they had a trophy for terminal of the year. Our terminal had won it for 5 consecutive years. The most we got for that was a sweatshirt with the company logo embroidered on it. No pay raise, no bonus check, no extra PTO hours-nothing for all us minions except a sweatshirt. And the terminal manager actually expects us to care about getting the trophy. When it is mentioned that why should we care we get nothing out of it all we hear is crickets. The only reason we won that trophy was because the manager would not spend a dime of his discretionary budget, which kept the profit margin up. It took years of drivers complaining to finally get new pallet jacks to replace the POS ones that would drop the pallet mid move due to leaky hydraulic cylinder seals. I am sure the manager parleyed the trophy for best terminal into pay raises for himself though. My company loves to sprinkle wampum at the savages, instead of money. Their brilliant bread and circus routine are awards (in the form of magnetic signs) that you get awarded for doing well, but they're not even from the company. They're from co-workers who nominate you. You bust your ass or make a really great move that helps the company grow, and you get a fucking refrigerator magnet from Sally in sales. You're supposed to stick them on your filing cabinet or something, like a buckeye sticker on a football helmet for every touchdown. I've earned a couple dozen, and they're all in a landfill somewhere. Insulting, IMHO, so they go where the idea should have, in the trash. I work for money, nothing else. Attaboys do not pay my rent, feed my dog, or help me retire faster. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 3:22:36 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Best way to move up is to move out. That's the way the game is played these days. Being loyal to an employee or employer is a thing of the past. True in sports and business. While it's true, it's also a horrendous trend and our society is going to pay dearly for it. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 3:23:43 PM EDT
[#41]
Most people don’t leave due to salary. They may cite that, but there are other underlying reasons. They would leave even if you paid them more.
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Posted: 2/25/2021 3:23:46 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Out of the blue company gave me a promotion last year. It came with a big raise. Then they called me back I two weeks later snd said after review the raise wasn’t big enough, here’s a few more % points. This year they told me I’m now eligible for an annual bonus that will be based on a decent % of my annual salary. I have very specific skills and would be very hard to replace. My company isn’t perfect by any stretch, but the people at the top understand retention. Sounds like a good company. I was employed by Netscape - it was at a time when everyone in tech wanted to work there, and they actually came to ask me if I wanted a job ... I was in the right place at the right time with the right skillset. Anyway, part of the deal was that I would get evaluated on MY work and results and would earn bonus and possibly stock options based upon MY work. It worked well. My quarterly bonus usually came in ~ $15k, and I got a boatload of stock options. I worked really hard in those days, put myself out when required because my work was being appreciated and rewarded. After Netscape was acquired by AOL/Sun, that stopped. I got lumped in with a bunch of other people I didn't know and had no control over and my bonus now varied between $0 and $1000 per quarter. A really good case study in how to demotivate people. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 3:28:05 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Most people don’t leave due to salary. They may cite that, but there are other underlying reasons. They would leave even if you paid them more. I don’t think that’s correct |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 3:31:32 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don’t think that’s correct Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Most people don’t leave due to salary. They may cite that, but there are other underlying reasons. They would leave even if you paid them more. I don’t think that’s correct I’ve personally seen it time and time again. Almost every employee we have made a counter offer to who stayed left within six months of accepting our counter offer. And there is some good literature out there on the topic. At the end of the day, you spend at least 8-10 waking hours a day at work, which is most of your life. It takes more than money to keep most people around. You have to make work a place they want to be. Not through gimmicks (like the magnets above) but by establishing a culture that people want to be a part of. An unhappy employee is like cancer, even if they are doing a good job. They kill the company from within and their unhappiness spreads. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 3:31:49 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hah. Every corporation views the employee salary as a bottomless pit of thirsty overhead. And they should view salary as an ROI calculation. Investing $X in this person/position enables the company to do.... |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 3:35:31 PM EDT
[#46]
It’s a myth that money equals retention. People leave jobs mainly because of their direct supervisor, how they are treated in general, and lack of overall job satisfaction and passion.
The inverse is why highly talented and skilled people choose to work at non-profits for next to no money. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 3:36:59 PM EDT
[#47]
This is a major problem at my company.
They are starting to come around, but it's potentially too little too late. But hey, at least for a few years our costs went way down with all the young green engineers hired to replace the seasoned guys they lost to competition (or laid off), and bonus: they're all the right skin color / gender, because that's an important trait for an engineering company.  Get woke, go broke. It's slow, but certain. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 3:40:55 PM EDT
[#48]
I work for the state, the dept im under and specifically my division had such high turn over it was starting to effect operations. They gave us a 20% raise to stop that bleed and over the 2 following years we got an additional 5% total. People are still leaving in droves and this isn’t the type of job that anyone can do. It takes federal licenses and lots of training.
They are hiring like crazy, or at least attempting to. They aren’t going to like it but they will have to give us another raise soon. It’s worth it to me, I work a week on/off schedule and get to go home every night. It’s not as stressful as what I was doing and has good benefits. However if they close my particular operation down I’ll be going back to what I was doing. It’s not worth it to me to transfer to another operation where I’ll no longer be able to go home at night. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 3:41:19 PM EDT
[#49]
Lots of good stuff covered in this thread.
My recent experience. Office closed because of Rona last year and we worked from home for a few months. We were very effective, met all deadlines, and were actually able to accomplish a few things more easily without the constraints of a normal office day. Banner sales year for the company on top of this. With the lease coming up on the building we are in we thought management would make the move to work from home and maybe retain a small office space. Lots of savings there. Nope. They built a Taj Mahal office in another state and gave us termination letters. Someone mentioned businesses ran by accountants being trainers for competitors and that looks to be what will happen with this company based on their new hires. They are sparing no expense on the new office and equipment while hiring a bunch of fresh faces and disposing of a small group of hard chargers in a less expensive market. Crazy to see. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 3:44:02 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And they should view salary as an ROI calculation. Investing $X in this person/position enables the company to do.... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Hah. Every corporation views the employee salary as a bottomless pit of thirsty overhead. And they should view salary as an ROI calculation. Investing $X in this person/position enables the company to do.... This is exactly how we look at it. We would never deliberately underpay someone. And if they generate ROI above what we expect/budget, we increase their bonus that year. |
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