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Posted: 1/22/2021 4:10:31 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Me too. OP thinks God should just make robots. Oooor he could have just made life with negatives that didn't involve suffering like children dying horrible deaths from disease and such. It would make a loving God sound more plausible  I don't even like seeing varmints suffer and I'm a dickhead. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 4:23:25 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oooor he could have just made life with negatives that didn't involve suffering like children dying horrible deaths from disease and such. It would make a loving God sound more plausible I don't even like seeing varmints suffer and I'm a dickhead. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Me too. OP thinks God should just make robots. Oooor he could have just made life with negatives that didn't involve suffering like children dying horrible deaths from disease and such. It would make a loving God sound more plausible I don't even like seeing varmints suffer and I'm a dickhead. Honest question: Why would that logically make a it more plausible to believe in a loving God? God's been quite clear that he does not enjoy the suffering of anyone, regardless if they deserve it or not, and will give justice to those who inflict misery on others they don't deserve. We humans, on the other hand, are a pretty screwed up lot, there's generally at least one group of people most would relish to make suffer, so we haven't a leg to stand on there. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 4:28:12 PM EDT
[#3]
OP has a 12 year old's grasp of God. There are plenty of great YouTube Bible studies if you want to learn. I doubt it will happen in this thread.
The concept of disproving God because he doesn't appear to exist in your mind's image is a common one. Makes about as much sense as observing that gravity kills children who fall out of windows and then say "I dont believe gravity exists!" |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 4:31:39 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Not a troll ( unless you feel asking a logical question is an attempt to annoy you ). Bit of background for you - the reason I stopped believing in religion at 12yo ( and in a small town in West of Ireland at the time so "sticking my head above the parapet" does not even begin to cover the shit show I willingly let myself in for )........................ As a 12yo boy who spent most of his time reading and IMHO having a fair grasp of logic - I had a problem when I observed the evil that exists in the world. And the suffering of innocent people ( disease etc ) Because God created all those humans engaged in evil. And all those humans getting diseases. I asked my relisious education teacher the following question............. If God created us and had free reign in our design and specifications etc - why did he not hard wire us with the inability to harm another human. Why did he build in horrible diseases ? I backed up that question with the example of a robot manufacturer deliberately choosing to create a product with the ability to do harm to his other robots when he has the ability to manufacture one hard wired to rule it out. Or a car manufacturer deliberately making an exquisite car. The very epitome of luxury and reliability. But deliberately taking 1 in every 100 on the production line and building in a flaw that makes it a write off in its first year of use - why would a manufacturer do that ??? Free will I hear some say ? He gave us free will and WE have messed it up. Well ok then - my logic still applies. God thought free will might be a good idea. But that has turned out to be a terrible idea ! So, surely God would withdraw that free will ? If he can create us - he can fix flaws too ? This has kept me away from the Church for 40 years. I still try to be the best human I can be - I do not fcuk with others where its not needed. My values are decent for the most part. I read of a USGI who was dealing with rescuing the inmates from a WW2 death camp. On the side of one of the bunks he found the following ( or similar ) scratched into the wood ( by the dead occupant )......... "IF, there is a God - when I finally meet him, he will have to get on his knees and beg my forgiveness" It says it all for me................. You can have faith and not have it all be logical. When you start thinking that Gods plan is going to make any sense to you or that there even is one for your specific moment in time you are kind of doing it all wrong. God gives you the tools. God gives you the strength knowledge wisdom etc to do the right thing. people doing the right thing makes gods plan happen. Don't rely on any of that. It's like the story of the guy that had his boat sank and he started praying. A boat came by and asked if he needed help. He said no thanks god has a plan, a helicopter same, another boat. Then when he was dead he asked god why his prayers had not been answered. Gods reply was that he did answer the prayer he sent 2 boats and a helicopter. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 4:39:08 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can have faith and not have it all be logical. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Not a troll ( unless you feel asking a logical question is an attempt to annoy you ). Bit of background for you - the reason I stopped believing in religion at 12yo ( and in a small town in West of Ireland at the time so "sticking my head above the parapet" does not even begin to cover the shit show I willingly let myself in for )........................ As a 12yo boy who spent most of his time reading and IMHO having a fair grasp of logic - I had a problem when I observed the evil that exists in the world. And the suffering of innocent people ( disease etc ) Because God created all those humans engaged in evil. And all those humans getting diseases. I asked my relisious education teacher the following question............. If God created us and had free reign in our design and specifications etc - why did he not hard wire us with the inability to harm another human. Why did he build in horrible diseases ? I backed up that question with the example of a robot manufacturer deliberately choosing to create a product with the ability to do harm to his other robots when he has the ability to manufacture one hard wired to rule it out. Or a car manufacturer deliberately making an exquisite car. The very epitome of luxury and reliability. But deliberately taking 1 in every 100 on the production line and building in a flaw that makes it a write off in its first year of use - why would a manufacturer do that ??? Free will I hear some say ? He gave us free will and WE have messed it up. Well ok then - my logic still applies. God thought free will might be a good idea. But that has turned out to be a terrible idea ! So, surely God would withdraw that free will ? If he can create us - he can fix flaws too ? This has kept me away from the Church for 40 years. I still try to be the best human I can be - I do not fcuk with others where its not needed. My values are decent for the most part. I read of a USGI who was dealing with rescuing the inmates from a WW2 death camp. On the side of one of the bunks he found the following ( or similar ) scratched into the wood ( by the dead occupant )......... "IF, there is a God - when I finally meet him, he will have to get on his knees and beg my forgiveness" It says it all for me................. You can have faith and not have it all be logical. That's false. You can't understand and believe that squares are spheres. No-go. If you can believe that, you can also believe that God will always tell the truth and that means he lies. That horse doesn't even make it into the starting gate. I am not saying our understanding is complete, but we do know the knowledge we have been given. God does not and can not contradict himself, and he is not the author of confusion. The confusion is on us, not him. He gave us knowledge in his word sot hat we could know, not so that we could be confused and shrug. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 4:41:11 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Honest question: Why would that logically make a it more plausible to believe in a loving God? God's been quite clear that he does not enjoy the suffering of anyone, regardless if they deserve it or not, and will give justice to those who inflict misery on others they don't deserve. We humans, on the other hand, are a pretty screwed up lot, there's generally at least one group of people most would relish to make suffer, so we haven't a leg to stand on there. If he doesn't like it he could have prevented it. He must enjoy it. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 4:55:59 PM EDT
[#7]
I don’t blame God for evil people. I blame Democrats that evil people are celebrated as martyrs and difficult to remove from the earth legally.
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Posted: 1/22/2021 4:57:58 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you have any opinion on why God would create a Satan ? God didn't create Satan. He created the angel that became Satan. Satan made his choices. And those choices involved pride, greed, control, lust for power, jealousy, anger, self-absorption, etc. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:00:36 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Not a troll ( unless you feel asking a logical question is an attempt to annoy you ). Bit of background for you - the reason I stopped believing in religion at 12yo ( and in a small town in West of Ireland at the time so "sticking my head above the parapet" does not even begin to cover the shit show I willingly let myself in for )........................ As a 12yo boy who spent most of his time reading and IMHO having a fair grasp of logic - I had a problem when I observed the evil that exists in the world. And the suffering of innocent people ( disease etc ) Because God created all those humans engaged in evil. And all those humans getting diseases. I asked my relisious education teacher the following question............. If God created us and had free reign in our design and specifications etc - why did he not hard wire us with the inability to harm another human. Why did he build in horrible diseases ? I backed up that question with the example of a robot manufacturer deliberately choosing to create a product with the ability to do harm to his other robots when he has the ability to manufacture one hard wired to rule it out. Or a car manufacturer deliberately making an exquisite car. The very epitome of luxury and reliability. But deliberately taking 1 in every 100 on the production line and building in a flaw that makes it a write off in its first year of use - why would a manufacturer do that ??? Free will I hear some say ? He gave us free will and WE have messed it up. Well ok then - my logic still applies. God thought free will might be a good idea. But that has turned out to be a terrible idea ! So, surely God would withdraw that free will ? If he can create us - he can fix flaws too ? This has kept me away from the Church for 40 years. I still try to be the best human I can be - I do not fcuk with others where its not needed. My values are decent for the most part. I read of a USGI who was dealing with rescuing the inmates from a WW2 death camp. On the side of one of the bunks he found the following ( or similar ) scratched into the wood ( by the dead occupant )......... "IF, there is a God - when I finally meet him, he will have to get on his knees and beg my forgiveness" It says it all for me................. You assume you know what God wants for us. I don't want to sin / oppose God, but I'm glad I'm not a robot. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:09:33 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If he doesn't like it he could have prevented it. He must enjoy it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Honest question: Why would that logically make a it more plausible to believe in a loving God? God's been quite clear that he does not enjoy the suffering of anyone, regardless if they deserve it or not, and will give justice to those who inflict misery on others they don't deserve. We humans, on the other hand, are a pretty screwed up lot, there's generally at least one group of people most would relish to make suffer, so we haven't a leg to stand on there. If he doesn't like it he could have prevented it. He must enjoy it. That's irrational man. You're presuming that if you don't prevent something, the only possible reason you wouldn't prevent it is because you enjoy seeing it happen. If you're going to say stuff for no rational reason, you can say literally anything at all, because you have no standard beyond ... "I want to say this." |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:13:57 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Honest question: Why would that logically make a it more plausible to believe in a loving God? God's been quite clear that he does not enjoy the suffering of anyone, regardless if they deserve it or not, and will give justice to those who inflict misery on others they don't deserve. We humans, on the other hand, are a pretty screwed up lot, there's generally at least one group of people most would relish to make suffer, so we haven't a leg to stand on there. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Me too. OP thinks God should just make robots. Oooor he could have just made life with negatives that didn't involve suffering like children dying horrible deaths from disease and such. It would make a loving God sound more plausible I don't even like seeing varmints suffer and I'm a dickhead. Honest question: Why would that logically make a it more plausible to believe in a loving God? God's been quite clear that he does not enjoy the suffering of anyone, regardless if they deserve it or not, and will give justice to those who inflict misery on others they don't deserve. We humans, on the other hand, are a pretty screwed up lot, there's generally at least one group of people most would relish to make suffer, so we haven't a leg to stand on there. Because even I and millions of others, even as extremely flawed humans, try to prevent suffering of other even lesser creatures when we can, to the point where we may suffer ourselves, and we're not even remotely omnipotent. Don't get me wrong, I've been a Christian since I was 7ish (no matter certain member's assertions to the contrary  ). But there are many things I'll probably never understand.
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:14:48 PM EDT
[#12]
I also believe if you took away free will. Humans wouldn’t be capable of great things.
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:16:30 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Got things figured out at 12 years of age, well done. Now how about that chicken or egg thing? He made a respectful post with the intent of having a respectful discussion with people who hold a different perspective. What do you hope to accomplish with that comment? Change his mind? Make him not want to have a discussion-making it impossible to change his mind? I don't get it. I'm all for rational, respectful discussion and debate. Without it, we're just like the left. If a perspective is well grounded, it can withstand critique. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:21:25 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you want to raise your children to be spoiled brats that take everything for granted, or do you want to teach them how to be proud of earning what they have and to appreciate the good things in their lives? And religion is the only way? Your post is dildos. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:22:40 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seek and you shall find. At this point you are in the "look at me how logical and superior I am in my thinking" stage. Hang in there. Yes. One day he can hope to get to the "look at me how superior and better I am than you because of my faith" stage. 
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:25:08 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: God didn't create Satan. He created the angel that became Satan. Satan made his choices. And those choices involved pride, greed, control, lust for power, jealousy, anger, self-absorption, etc. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Do you have any opinion on why God would create a Satan ? God didn't create Satan. He created the angel that became Satan. Satan made his choices. And those choices involved pride, greed, control, lust for power, jealousy, anger, self-absorption, etc. And since God is all knowing he knew exactly what he was creating, aaaaand did it anyway. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:26:45 PM EDT
[#17]
You don't have to be a Christian to be a good person. There are way more non-Christians than there are Christians so pretty easy point to make there.
You do however, need to be a hypocrite. Change my mind. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:38:54 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because even I and millions of others, even as extremely flawed humans, try to prevent suffering of other even lesser creatures when we can, to the point where we may suffer ourselves, and we're not even remotely omnipotent. Don't get me wrong, I've been a Christian since I was 7ish (no matter certain member's assertions to the contrary ). But there are many things I'll probably never understand.Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Me too. OP thinks God should just make robots. Oooor he could have just made life with negatives that didn't involve suffering like children dying horrible deaths from disease and such. It would make a loving God sound more plausible I don't even like seeing varmints suffer and I'm a dickhead. Honest question: Why would that logically make a it more plausible to believe in a loving God? God's been quite clear that he does not enjoy the suffering of anyone, regardless if they deserve it or not, and will give justice to those who inflict misery on others they don't deserve. We humans, on the other hand, are a pretty screwed up lot, there's generally at least one group of people most would relish to make suffer, so we haven't a leg to stand on there. Because even I and millions of others, even as extremely flawed humans, try to prevent suffering of other even lesser creatures when we can, to the point where we may suffer ourselves, and we're not even remotely omnipotent. Don't get me wrong, I've been a Christian since I was 7ish (no matter certain member's assertions to the contrary ). But there are many things I'll probably never understand.Yeah, lots of stuff just doesn't make sense. We are just creatures and do not know all that can be known. My experience is that when people have been honest with me on these sort of topics, this boils down to "I know it wouldn't make belief in a loving God more probable, but I just don't like the way things are, why doesn't God do what I want him to?" God planned that there would be evil and suffering in this world, that he would save all who believe Christ died for them, and put the justice they deserved on Christ... and that everyone else would get what they deserve ... and all the wrongs in creation (disease, disaster, corruption) would be righted. This is an incredibly painful world to live in, but that doesn't mean it's wrong(that God planned it this way). |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:39:40 PM EDT
[#19]
You know who hates these topics more than anyone on this site? Satan. The devil would rather one be comfortable and not question anything. Satan has been around in one form or another since before creation. He has seen with his own eyes every thing that has gone on in the world and is doing his best to screw us over because he knows, "his time is short". He knew the plan of salvation. He tried to stop it many times through evil kings. He knows the Bible too and one his most clever deceits was to have people take the scripture and just change a little bit of the truth to add confusion. That is one of the reason we have so many diverse beliefs even though we are studying the same book. ymmv
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:40:27 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And religion is the only way? Your post is *. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Do you want to raise your children to be spoiled brats that take everything for granted, or do you want to teach them how to be proud of earning what they have and to appreciate the good things in their lives? And religion is the only way? Your post is *. He's wrong for saying something is absolute, and why is he wrong ... because he disagreed with what you think is absolute. Waaaaiit ... 
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:47:11 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You don't have to be a Christian to be a good person. There are way more non-Christians than there are Christians so pretty easy point to make there. You do however, need to be a hypocrite. Change my mind. Christians aren't made sinless and perfect when they believe christ died for them. We just wind up in a lifelong war with sin which we will never win in this life. As far as "good person" goes, no human being is actually good in that we can't ever do anything for completely right reasons. Help the old lady across the road because you think that was the right thing to do, but also desire that everyone sees what you did so they can give you credit for it? You mixed in corruption. Nobody gets over that bar. Do things that are outwardly good, like dive on a grenade to save your buddies during war, sacrificing yourself for them? Yep. The fact that we do such things just illustrates the screwed up way things are. We do things that are good and still manage to screw them up. As far as your seemingly saying "only christians can be hyporcites" (if I read you right) ... if you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you really cheap. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:51:25 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I appreciate the input but it does not assist me. I read that as God having a temper tantrum because his creations did not act the way he hoped they would. Before he created us, who was giving him this worship he needed ? This tells me you don't really understand the doctrine of Christianity or the God you claim to not believe in. God doesn't NEED worship. That would imply that without it, He is incomplete in some way. However, He does have angels worshipping Him constantly (as depicted in the Bible). Even without them, God is a triune being and can have fellowship with the members of the Trinity. Now, beyond that, you have the completely wrong idea about evil. I get it -- its a common misconception. You think the existence of evil proves there is no God. You have that exactly backwards. If there is such a thing as evil -- it REQUIRES God to exist. I could try to explain it, but these guys do a much better job: www.str.org. Here are just a few quick results I found when searching. One is a short article and the others are something to listen to. Don't give me the TL:DR stuff. If you ACTUALLY want answers, you have to look over the evidence you are provided with. https://www.str.org/w/evil-as-evidence-for-god-2007?inheritRedirect=true https://www.str.org/w/if-god-is-good-why-is-there-evil-?inheritRedirect=true https://www.str.org/w/the-problem-of-evil-1?inheritRedirect=true |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:52:30 PM EDT
[#23]
consider a world where murder is impossible. let's suppose that god creates a world where we are all sentient clams. since we can't kill other clams as a clam, there are never any cases of murder, ever. all we can do is filter water and shoot water streams at each other. shooting streams of water becomes the new 'evil'. when another clam blows water at us, we may ask ourselves in the same situation 'why does evil exist in the world'. so the current 'evil' is what god is willing to tolerate in exchange for other physical abilities. morality will always be linked to our physical and mental abilities. so it's likely the case that our current existence is the optimum tradeoff.
it could well be the case that we are also retarded versions of real humans. for example, if god created much smarter humans that had much better technologies, they would be capable of real evil. so instead of limiting the physical, we are now damned with a limited mental capacity that can't, for example, understand many aspects of the universe. for example, if humans could alter the past or teleport, etc, it could well be the case that genocide wipes the race. in which case, our current mental capacity is the limit of understanding 'evil' that god determined to be acceptable. as an example, we are much more likely to build a house with a hammer than we are to kill another human with a hammer. as a result, the use of tools is a net gain for humanity, despite the opportunity for evil it produces. basically, evil is relative and we don't know what scale it really exists. if our window of 'evil' is actually a fraction of what could've been, we should thank god every day for the things that were banned from our existence that were worse than murder and disease. for example, let's say our world had a 'soul purge' and the amount of evil that resulted was banned by god - no living human would know if it were banned by god because it was. . . banned. so saying god didn't/doesn't stop evil makes no sense, it could be that there are billions of things already banned. if god bans the current 'evil', we may have extremely reduced mental and physical abilities. it's likely that the current balance of abilities and 'evil' is a good tradeoff (look at healthcare and mortality rates of the world). |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:54:06 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Also ponder this: When you say there is evil, aren’t you admitting there is good? When you accept the existence of goodness, you must affirm a moral law on the basis of which to differentiate between good and evil. But when you admit to a moral law, you must posit a moral lawgiver. Who might that be? Exactly. This is known as the Moral Argument for God's existence. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:55:57 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not my point and I don't give 2 shits what you believe. I don't believe in any 1 religion being correct but what I did have happen to me with a NDE, which I posted here, leads me to believe 100% you will not be a tough guy questioning God. IF what I got to see is not some bullshit my brain conjured up, God will not be asking you for forgiveness and things become much more clear why life on earth is the way it is. Face to face with the maker of all things and you think you're going all tough guy act because, well you're not seeking forgiveness is fucking laughable. I hope I get to witness this questioning of God when your moment comes. Good luck with whatever it is you're trying to accomplish in this thread. I'll leave it be, but man you are in for 1 rude of awakening...lot's of bible thumpers are in for one also so dont think I'm picking on the non-believer or whatever you claim to be. Did you ever do a thread on your NDE? I'd like to read it, if so. Those fascinate me. @dex71 |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:58:30 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You make a thought provoking point ! Pending said thought, my initial response is that I am only aware of good and evil because I am capable of both based on my observations of the world around me. You're missing the point. What makes anything inherently "good". You have to reference a standard to judge something by. The standard of good and evil have to be defined by something that exists outside of humans, otherwise its just subjective feels. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 6:01:46 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So, upon his return, for the 1000 year reign, he will rectify the free will flaw that allowed "death and suffering". If that was his plan - why wait ? Why not do it when FIRST creating us ? Why knowingly create us flawed, know that wecwill fuck up and come back later to fix it ??? Of all the questions anyone can ask, even with all the resources the doctrine of the Bible, that is the ONE question that we can never know the answer to: "Why did God..." or "Why didn't God...". If it isn't explained in the Bible, then how can we know? |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 6:07:37 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If he doesn't like it he could have prevented it. He must enjoy it. LOL. I don't like taking my kids to get their shots and I can prevent it by just not taking them. They hate the shots and it hurts them. Therefore I must be evil and love making my kids suffer, right? Or maybe it's just not possible to explain to a baby that this small moment of pain means they are being vaccinated against a disease that could kill them. Limited perspective and people assume too much. Same story since the dawn of time. "Who can know the mind of God?" Indeed, who can? |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 6:10:48 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's irrational man. You're presuming that if you don't prevent something, the only possible reason you wouldn't prevent it is because you enjoy seeing it happen. If you're going to say stuff for no rational reason, you can say literally anything at all, because you have no standard beyond ... "I want to say this." Is God perfect? Is God all knowing? If you you say he is perfect and all knowing then he knew from the moment of creation exactly what would happen. He must know how everything plays out or he is not perfect and all knowing. A person can rationalize anything that fits his beliefs, no matter how illogical. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 6:12:38 PM EDT
[#30]
Vic....
I’ve been a follower of Jesus for 45+ years. I don’t have any of the answers to your specific questions but I do know this; that you need to get on your knees and ask Him to forgive you for nailing Him to a cross. Once you understand the reason for doing that everything else will fall into place and the rest will fade to insignificance. I hope you find the peace you are looking for. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 6:20:10 PM EDT
[#31]
The Bible does NOT say he will return to this earth for a thousand year reign. It says we are caught UP to go to heaven for a thousand years. Where do you think the houses he is providing for us will be when he says where I am, you also will be.
Where is the Father's House in this scripture? ohn 14:2-6 NKJVIn My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 1 Thessalonians 4:17, KJV: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 6:24:44 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I quoted this particular response as an example that is occurring throughout It’s an example of “not answering the question” The OP asked: “why wait?” And the responder gave....well, what he gave, which is another version of what a lot of people have said, which is what they believe “happens now”. The OP is asking why “now” was even allowed to happen. He wants to know why an omnipotent God would create Adam and Eve when he knew they would sin and be cast out of His light. Why not create humans Incapable of sinning? The response will be that sin is a by product of free will. The Op will then ask “why? Why did sin have to be a byproduct of free will? He’s “God”, and acts in ways beyond understanding, are you saying God is incapable of creating a world with free will but also without sin?” The response will be “of course, He is God and capable of all things”. To which the OP will then respond “then why didn’t he?” They can’t answer your question, OP. At some point, you have to blindly accept any religion. It’s just that simple. If God requires man ask for forgiveness and accept his grace in order to be brought again into his light, why wasn’t this resolved when humans finally did? If Adam and Eve asked forgiveness for their “Sin” from God, why wasn’t that the end of the story? Why require generation after generation of human to suffer for the actions of their progenitors? Is that mercy? Would not mercy be forgiveness, once granted, is everlasting? A “return to grace” as it were, and then remaining in grace. God exists outside time. So to him the 2000 years since Christ’s death, or the thousands of years since our creation, are but a...moment? Not even a moment, because moments are a function of time.....so really it’s nothing....but surely an omnipotent being would know that we exist inside time, and that we are now suffering for the sins (literally) of our fathers....so why allow that? If God is all merciful, why is there a generational return to grace? The Epicurus quote presented here is a good one. To the OP, I submit that no one here can answer you. They can quote you Bible until they’re blue in the face, but these questions are not answered there. Heck, some of them are not even asked there. Reality is they have chosen and accepted this explanation for the unknown, the what happens “now, from this point forward”, and have stopped asking those questions. They have accepted that there isn’t anyone with the answer, except for them, God and they are comfortable not knowing all the answers. For them, having their lives “in God’s hands” is where they’ve found peace. And that’s ok. For me, once I realized that, life got easier. Religions around the world differ on who (or what) the supreme being is, but most of them agree on a code of morality. It doesn’t matter if you’re born and raised in the heart of Africa you’re probably taught murder is wrong. You’re on the right track in trying to live a good and caring life. What Christians would call a “Christ-like” life. It’s what I try and do. I do unto others. I love my neighbor. I try not judge (this one is really hard). I am flawed. I make mistakes. When those mistakes harm others I ask their forgiveness, make amends, and try and do better the next time. I try and raise my children to have those same values. And if when I die my failure to embrace an organized religion means I am destined for hell, I will have to accept that as a consequence for my choice. If it’s just darkness I will die hoping I left the world and the people who knew me better off for that experience. And I think that’s all I can do. There is one difference. I try and do these things because, looking at the balance, I believe they are the right thing to do. Not for fear of God. Or hell. Or to earn an eternal reward. I do it because I do believe in morality and freewill, and that choosing to do the right thing, and living in a moral society that prescribes to those things as well, makes my life better, the lives of my children better, and the lives of those around me better. And I want to live the best life in the best society i can. I believe that happens by the most people adhering to societal norms for good” and eradicating what society calls “evil”. Just about every atheist and agnostic I know adheres to a similar moral code as the Christians I know. I do believe in a God. I’m just not sure humanity is capable of defining who God is, which is what most organized religion tried to do. Good luck with your searching. I won’t be reading the responses to my answer here. I’ve been called a heathen and non-believer enough in my life. The joys of growing up Catholic and asking these types of questions. To everyone in here. Be well. I sincerely hope peace finds you in wherever you seek it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: So, upon his return, for the 1000 year reign, he will rectify the free will flaw that allowed "death and suffering". If that was his plan - why wait ? Why not do it when FIRST creating us ? Why knowingly create us flawed, know that wecwill fuck up and come back later to fix it ??? Free will is not a flaw and needs NO correcting as ALL those that will be there for the 1000 year reign already exercised their FREE WILL accepted Christ as their path to eternal life and accepted that death and suffering were part of it (as well as love and compassion) and are now rewarded for it. I quoted this particular response as an example that is occurring throughout It’s an example of “not answering the question” The OP asked: “why wait?” And the responder gave....well, what he gave, which is another version of what a lot of people have said, which is what they believe “happens now”. The OP is asking why “now” was even allowed to happen. He wants to know why an omnipotent God would create Adam and Eve when he knew they would sin and be cast out of His light. Why not create humans Incapable of sinning? The response will be that sin is a by product of free will. The Op will then ask “why? Why did sin have to be a byproduct of free will? He’s “God”, and acts in ways beyond understanding, are you saying God is incapable of creating a world with free will but also without sin?” The response will be “of course, He is God and capable of all things”. To which the OP will then respond “then why didn’t he?” They can’t answer your question, OP. At some point, you have to blindly accept any religion. It’s just that simple. If God requires man ask for forgiveness and accept his grace in order to be brought again into his light, why wasn’t this resolved when humans finally did? If Adam and Eve asked forgiveness for their “Sin” from God, why wasn’t that the end of the story? Why require generation after generation of human to suffer for the actions of their progenitors? Is that mercy? Would not mercy be forgiveness, once granted, is everlasting? A “return to grace” as it were, and then remaining in grace. God exists outside time. So to him the 2000 years since Christ’s death, or the thousands of years since our creation, are but a...moment? Not even a moment, because moments are a function of time.....so really it’s nothing....but surely an omnipotent being would know that we exist inside time, and that we are now suffering for the sins (literally) of our fathers....so why allow that? If God is all merciful, why is there a generational return to grace? The Epicurus quote presented here is a good one. To the OP, I submit that no one here can answer you. They can quote you Bible until they’re blue in the face, but these questions are not answered there. Heck, some of them are not even asked there. Reality is they have chosen and accepted this explanation for the unknown, the what happens “now, from this point forward”, and have stopped asking those questions. They have accepted that there isn’t anyone with the answer, except for them, God and they are comfortable not knowing all the answers. For them, having their lives “in God’s hands” is where they’ve found peace. And that’s ok. For me, once I realized that, life got easier. Religions around the world differ on who (or what) the supreme being is, but most of them agree on a code of morality. It doesn’t matter if you’re born and raised in the heart of Africa you’re probably taught murder is wrong. You’re on the right track in trying to live a good and caring life. What Christians would call a “Christ-like” life. It’s what I try and do. I do unto others. I love my neighbor. I try not judge (this one is really hard). I am flawed. I make mistakes. When those mistakes harm others I ask their forgiveness, make amends, and try and do better the next time. I try and raise my children to have those same values. And if when I die my failure to embrace an organized religion means I am destined for hell, I will have to accept that as a consequence for my choice. If it’s just darkness I will die hoping I left the world and the people who knew me better off for that experience. And I think that’s all I can do. There is one difference. I try and do these things because, looking at the balance, I believe they are the right thing to do. Not for fear of God. Or hell. Or to earn an eternal reward. I do it because I do believe in morality and freewill, and that choosing to do the right thing, and living in a moral society that prescribes to those things as well, makes my life better, the lives of my children better, and the lives of those around me better. And I want to live the best life in the best society i can. I believe that happens by the most people adhering to societal norms for good” and eradicating what society calls “evil”. Just about every atheist and agnostic I know adheres to a similar moral code as the Christians I know. I do believe in a God. I’m just not sure humanity is capable of defining who God is, which is what most organized religion tried to do. Good luck with your searching. I won’t be reading the responses to my answer here. I’ve been called a heathen and non-believer enough in my life. The joys of growing up Catholic and asking these types of questions. To everyone in here. Be well. I sincerely hope peace finds you in wherever you seek it. I can only add my perspective to this. Why does a blacksmith heat iron red hot and then beat the snot out of it? Is he mad at the iron? Punishing it? Rather he heats the iron to make it maleable, and strikes it to re-arrange the grain structure of the metal, to make it stronger and shaped for its intended purpose. We exist, and the choices we make on this plane of existence matter, (to me), as they are transformative to our soul, and thus make us more fit for our designed purpose. Of course, not every soul reaches the desired end, just as some pieces of iron are scrapped, rather than becoming horseshoes. However, it seems to me the point of the existence is the choices that we make, and the faith that we do, or do not, exercise. This doubtless falls under the spiritual laws I spoke of earlier - laws that we perceive dimly and imperfectly. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 6:29:19 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: God didn't create Satan. He created the angel that became Satan. Satan made his choices. And those choices involved pride, greed, control, lust for power, jealousy, anger, self-absorption, etc. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Do you have any opinion on why God would create a Satan ? God didn't create Satan. He created the angel that became Satan. Satan made his choices. And those choices involved pride, greed, control, lust for power, jealousy, anger, self-absorption, etc. What's his ARFCOM handle? |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 6:30:50 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If he doesn't like it he could have prevented it. He must enjoy it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Honest question: Why would that logically make a it more plausible to believe in a loving God? God's been quite clear that he does not enjoy the suffering of anyone, regardless if they deserve it or not, and will give justice to those who inflict misery on others they don't deserve. We humans, on the other hand, are a pretty screwed up lot, there's generally at least one group of people most would relish to make suffer, so we haven't a leg to stand on there. If he doesn't like it he could have prevented it. He must enjoy it. Mad at God? That's OK - He has shoulders big enough to carry that load. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 6:30:58 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not my point and I don't give 2 shits what you believe. I don't believe in any 1 religion being correct but what I did have happen to me with a NDE, which I posted here, leads me to believe 100% you will not be a tough guy questioning God. IF what I got to see is not some bullshit my brain conjured up, God will not be asking you for forgiveness and things become much more clear why life on earth is the way it is. Face to face with the maker of all things and you think you're going all tough guy act because, well you're not seeking forgiveness is fucking laughable. I hope I get to witness this questioning of God when your moment comes. Good luck with whatever it is you're trying to accomplish in this thread. I'll leave it be, but man you are in for 1 rude of awakening...lot's of bible thumpers are in for one also so dont think I'm picking on the non-believer or whatever you claim to be. @dex71 do you have a link to where you discussed your NDE? I have always been intrigued by those experiences people have. I would consider myself to be in a similar situation as the OP, but reading about experiences others have is one of those things that makes me believe I may very well be wrong in my way of thinking. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 6:31:20 PM EDT
[#36]
Suffering and death exist because that's how life diversifies and adapts to the changing conditions inherent in any natural habitat we're aware of.
Whether that's by God's design or not really depends on how you define God, assuming you think putting God in a box small enough to do that seems reasonable. Of course people didn't understand any of that when middle eastern religions began, so they had to come up with something, so we have powers and principalities of darkness, Eve and the apple, the deification of evil, original sin, scapegoating, blood sacrifice, apocalyptic prophecy, holy wars, disdain for creation, and all the rest. So, extra suffering and death. There's really no reason to blame God in either case. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 6:35:35 PM EDT
[#37]
You can probably guess my answer.
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Posted: 1/22/2021 6:35:40 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL. I don't like taking my kids to get their shots and I can prevent it by just not taking them. They hate the shots and it hurts them. Therefore I must be evil and love making my kids suffer, right? Or maybe it's just not possible to explain to a baby that this small moment of pain means they are being vaccinated against a disease that could kill them. You didn't create the disease that could kill them, God did. Therefore being a loving parent and rational person you take your kids for their shots to protect them. God could protect them but instead he created diseases. It should be a little difficult to rationalize such things but as we have seen anything can be rationalized by people who don't want to look at a thing that is completely illogical and see it as so. Limited perspective and people assume too much. Same story since the dawn of time. "Who can know the mind of God?" Indeed, who can? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If he doesn't like it he could have prevented it. He must enjoy it. LOL. I don't like taking my kids to get their shots and I can prevent it by just not taking them. They hate the shots and it hurts them. Therefore I must be evil and love making my kids suffer, right? Or maybe it's just not possible to explain to a baby that this small moment of pain means they are being vaccinated against a disease that could kill them. You didn't create the disease that could kill them, God did. Therefore being a loving parent and rational person you take your kids for their shots to protect them. God could protect them but instead he created diseases. It should be a little difficult to rationalize such things but as we have seen anything can be rationalized by people who don't want to look at a thing that is completely illogical and see it as so. Limited perspective and people assume too much. Same story since the dawn of time. "Who can know the mind of God?" Indeed, who can? |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 6:38:05 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is God perfect? Is God all knowing? If you you say he is perfect and all knowing then he knew from the moment of creation exactly what would happen. He must know how everything plays out or he is not perfect and all knowing. A person can rationalize anything that fits his beliefs, no matter how illogical. A small example. Ever play solitaire with a deck of cards? Did you look at the cards under the top card, or did you play fair? Why play at all, when you can just sort the cards into whatever order you like without playing by some game rules? Yet people do play solitaire, even though they have the power to force the game to go the way they wish, or jsut skip right to the end result that they are playing for. So, long way 'round the bush to say that things are the way they are due to God's will, and probably spiritual laws of creation that we do not understand. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 6:51:58 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: Because God created all those humans engaged in evil. And all those humans getting diseases. I asked my religious education teacher the following question............. If God created us and had free reign in our design and specifications etc - why did he not hard wire us with the inability to harm another human. Why did he build in horrible diseases ? If thusly hard wired, the resultant creature would not be human. I backed up that question with the example of a robot manufacturer deliberately choosing to create a product with the ability to do harm to his other robots when he has the ability to manufacture one hard wired to rule it out. Again, If thusly hard wired, the resultant creature would not be human. Or a car manufacturer deliberately making an exquisite car. The very epitome of luxury and reliability. But deliberately taking 1 in every 100 on the production line and building in a flaw that makes it a write off in its first year of use - why would a manufacturer do that ??? God didn't chose this. Humans did. Each human reinforces this by violating His laws. Free will I hear some say ? He gave us free will and WE have messed it up. Well ok then - my logic still applies. Not really, but we'll continue. God thought free will might be a good idea. But that has turned out to be a terrible idea ! So, surely God would withdraw that free will ? If he can create us - he can fix flaws too? Yet again, if free will was removed, the resultant creature would not be human. Alternatively, instead of a mindless robot, it would be a miserable creature that had the desire to do an action but would always fail. This has kept me away from the Church for 40 years. I still try to be the best human I can be - I do not fcuk with others where its not needed. My values are decent for the most part. You have just said that you refused God and demand he acquiesce to your demands. It doesn't work that way. "Trying" is not 100% success and 'decent' isn't good enough. A perfect God only can accept perfection. Thus, the need for Jesus's sacrifice on your behalf so that He can plead your case that you are already pardoned on that fateful day when everyone will have to account for every word, thought, and deed. I read of a USGI who was dealing with rescuing the inmates from a WW2 death camp. On the side of one of the bunks he found the following ( or similar ) scratched into the wood ( by the dead occupant )......... "IF, there is a God - when I finally meet him, he will have to get on his knees and beg my forgiveness" It says it all for me................. You have no claim to demand that. You have stated that you have refused to follow God's rules on His planet. And question His wisdom in creating a race of beings that were designed to be His family. You are the same type of rebel that Lucifer became when he fell to be Satan. You will have the same end. You may not want to hear and/or believe this; but, that is the way it is. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 6:54:34 PM EDT
[#41]
I struggle with this question a lot myself. At one point I tried telling myself that most others, possibly everyone else but me, out there in the world are not real people. Maybe we are living in a simulation of sorts (see the movie vanilla sky). Maybe it would make sense if ultra bad guys and horrible things were there for a reason, either as a test, or more likely as just another of millions of quests for us to keep busy (a better word isn't coming to mind atm). But then the bible says the devil has a lot of power down here so I feel like that is what is going on. He tempts and sways us all to one extent or the other.
I also don't understand why God would be so unfair to people...like with a scenario where I grew up with religious parents that taught me about the bible and took me to church and managed to teach me that killing people is a no no versus a kid raised without parents that turned to the streets to live a life of crime and kill a few innocents. But maybe that killer finds Jesus in prison and ends up in heaven while I struggle my entire life to accept him and end up not in heaven. Food for thought. Anyhow, I don't have the answers either. Self awareness is a crazy thing. I don't think we are meant to understand everything or even capable of it. I think and hope we can get some answers when we die. The older I get the more I believe though. I had a dream around the time of my heart attack that helped me with my faith. I believe we are also here to help each other get to heaven. God's holding the bus door open for us and there are plenty more seats so climb aboard. I don't think you want to miss this bus. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 6:55:10 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A small example. Ever play solitaire with a deck of cards? Did you look at the cards under the top card, or did you play fair? Why play at all, when you can just sort the cards into whatever order you like without playing by some game rules? Yet people do play solitaire, even though they have the power to force the game to go the way they wish, or jsut skip right to the end result that they are playing for. So, long way 'round the bush to say that things are the way they are due to God's will, and probably spiritual laws of creation that we do not understand. That has nothing to do with anything. Is god all knowing or not? If he is and he created a four dimensional universe that is at least 93 billion lightyears in diameter that includes warped time and space he must have known something as simple as original sin. Now, he could have just forgiven her but instead we create this illogical tale of how he would have to wait thousands of years then have a son that he must make suffer and die to forgive humanity. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 6:57:52 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: If he doesn't like it he could have prevented it. He must enjoy it. LOL. I don't like taking my kids to get their shots and I can prevent it by just not taking them. They hate the shots and it hurts them. Therefore I must be evil and love making my kids suffer, right? Or maybe it's just not possible to explain to a baby that this small moment of pain means they are being vaccinated against a disease that could kill them. You didn't create the disease that could kill them, God did. Therefore being a loving parent and rational person you take your kids for their shots to protect them. God could protect them but instead he created diseases. It should be a little difficult to rationalize such things but as we have seen anything can be rationalized by people who don't want to look at a thing that is completely illogical and see it as so. Limited perspective and people assume too much. Same story since the dawn of time. "Who can know the mind of God?" Indeed, who can? I don't know how I posted in the middle of a quote but it happened, sorry. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 7:00:38 PM EDT
[#44]
That's an easy question to answer. But it's absolutely impossible to convince anyone to believe the true answer unless God Himself changes their heart first.
Feel free to PM me if you ever want to discuss this from a historical Christian (meaning, biblical) perspective. But there's no way I'm going to wade through 2.5 pages of heresy and try to compete with what's already probably been said here. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 7:06:47 PM EDT
[#45]
If you really want to understand, you'll have to read the bible, it makes it pretty clear.
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Posted: 1/22/2021 7:22:40 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Not a troll ( unless you feel asking a logical question is an attempt to annoy you ). Bit of background for you - the reason I stopped believing in religion at 12yo ( and in a small town in West of Ireland at the time so "sticking my head above the parapet" does not even begin to cover the shit show I willingly let myself in for )........................ As a 12yo boy who spent most of his time reading and IMHO having a fair grasp of logic - I had a problem when I observed the evil that exists in the world. And the suffering of innocent people ( disease etc ) Because God created all those humans engaged in evil. And all those humans getting diseases. I asked my relisious education teacher the following question............. If God created us and had free reign in our design and specifications etc - why did he not hard wire us with the inability to harm another human. Why did he build in horrible diseases ? I backed up that question with the example of a robot manufacturer deliberately choosing to create a product with the ability to do harm to his other robots when he has the ability to manufacture one hard wired to rule it out. Or a car manufacturer deliberately making an exquisite car. The very epitome of luxury and reliability. But deliberately taking 1 in every 100 on the production line and building in a flaw that makes it a write off in its first year of use - why would a manufacturer do that ??? Free will I hear some say ? He gave us free will and WE have messed it up. Well ok then - my logic still applies. God thought free will might be a good idea. But that has turned out to be a terrible idea ! So, surely God would withdraw that free will ? If he can create us - he can fix flaws too ? This has kept me away from the Church for 40 years. I still try to be the best human I can be - I do not fcuk with others where its not needed. My values are decent for the most part. I read of a USGI who was dealing with rescuing the inmates from a WW2 death camp. On the side of one of the bunks he found the following ( or similar ) scratched into the wood ( by the dead occupant )......... "IF, there is a God - when I finally meet him, he will have to get on his knees and beg my forgiveness" It says it all for me................. This is a different approach but stick with me. The Bible speaks of predestination. A thorough study of the doctrine reveals that some people are innately open (as a function of their free will) to the possibility of God. Others are predisposed to reject God. People who are open to at least the concept of God eventually find Him. After all they're not in this alone; God is fully engaged. People who are hostile to the possibility of [a good and loving] God will never find Him. They have used/use their free will to wall themselves off to the possibility. Jesus spoke of this situation in a parable. Luke 16: 27 And he [a formerly rich sinner who has died and gone to hell] said, 'Then I request of you, father [Abraham], that you send him [a poor man who died and is now in heaven] to my father's house 28 for I have five brothersin order that he may warn them, so that they will not come to this place of torment as well.' 29 But Abraham *said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' 30 But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'" Jesus told this parable knowing that He Himself would rise from the dead and most would still reject Him. [He also told it to illustrate that one man had his good things on earth and his bad things afterwards; the other man had bad things on earth and good things afterward.] This is the bottom line. There's no point in asking about God if you have ruled out the possibility of a good and just God a priori. Otherwise, seek and you will find. That's a promise. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 7:33:39 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: Not a troll ( unless you feel asking a logical question is an attempt to annoy you ). Bit of background for you - the reason I stopped believing in religion at 12yo ( and in a small town in West of Ireland at the time so "sticking my head above the parapet" does not even begin to cover the shit show I willingly let myself in for )........................ As a 12yo boy who spent most of his time reading and IMHO having a fair grasp of logic - I had a problem when I observed the evil that exists in the world. And the suffering of innocent people ( disease etc ) Because God created all those humans engaged in evil. And all those humans getting diseases. I asked my relisious education teacher the following question............. If God created us and had free reign in our design and specifications etc - why did he not hard wire us with the inability to harm another human. Why did he build in horrible diseases ? I backed up that question with the example of a robot manufacturer deliberately choosing to create a product with the ability to do harm to his other robots when he has the ability to manufacture one hard wired to rule it out. Or a car manufacturer deliberately making an exquisite car. The very epitome of luxury and reliability. But deliberately taking 1 in every 100 on the production line and building in a flaw that makes it a write off in its first year of use - why would a manufacturer do that ??? Free will I hear some say ? He gave us free will and WE have messed it up. Well ok then - my logic still applies. God thought free will might be a good idea. But that has turned out to be a terrible idea ! So, surely God would withdraw that free will ? If he can create us - he can fix flaws too ? This has kept me away from the Church for 40 years. I still try to be the best human I can be - I do not fcuk with others where its not needed. My values are decent for the most part. I read of a USGI who was dealing with rescuing the inmates from a WW2 death camp. On the side of one of the bunks he found the following ( or similar ) scratched into the wood ( by the dead occupant )......... "IF, there is a God - when I finally meet him, he will have to get on his knees and beg my forgiveness" It says it all for me................. What you're describing is a garden variety argument from evil. It's been hashed and re-hashed by philosophers and theologians much smarter than you and me for millennia, and there will never be a cute, neatly-packaged solution to the problem. As it turns out, the same is true of pretty much all the meaningful questions we can ask about the nature of reality and human existence, so it's not particularly unique in this regard. To answer your question whether a world in which free will obtains is superior to one in which it is not, I would say that what we typically regard as the highest moral qualities can't obtain in a world without free will. Moral facts themselves would become trivial. While much of the argument from evil (it's actually a family of related arguments) can be difficult to work through, the notion that a world in which there is free will is better than world in which there is not is actually pretty uncontroversial. More difficult are those specific evils that aren't evidently caused by a wrong moral choice or attitude--e.g., the rape of a 6 year old girl, or a child in Africa dying from malaria. The general theistic argument here would take the form of something like this: Humans--relative to God--have a literally infinitesimally narrow view of space-time. We can see the immediate effects of a state of affairs, but cannot see all the ways it will affect the world in 100 years. Perhaps it is the case that what appear to us as evil states of affairs will be redeemed by some greater good that could not have obtained otherwise, either in the future or in a way that is opaque to us, given the profoundly limited range of our senses and extension in space-time. Obviously, it's more complicated than that, but that's kind of the bird's-eye view of the argument. For me personally, I am convinced enough by the miracle that moral facts exist to begin with (and that we can intuit them) that I believe God exists--and specifically, the Christian God, because apart from the work of Christ, any God even resembling the Hebrew God wouldn't have been recognizably good. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 7:39:09 PM EDT
[#48]
I have read three pages of man’s excuses attempting to answer the OP’s question...but have miserably failed.
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Posted: 1/22/2021 7:40:13 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have read three pages of man’s excuses attempting to answer the OP’s question...but have miserably failed. Not true. You don't believe their answers. That isn't failure on their part. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 7:41:46 PM EDT
[#50]
First time that I have never read all or at least most of a thread before posting. Please forgive.
"IF, there is a God - when I finally meet him, he will have to get on his knees and beg my forgiveness" From the OP, this is a VERY powerful statement. |
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