I hear Portugal get thrown out a bit too as a good retirement location.  Seems they have passed some laws aimed at encouraging it as well.

I have known a ton of expats and not one has given up their citizenship.

I will be leaving, likely, in the next 2 years.

I was seriously entertaining Chile', but with
their recent changes to their Constitution,
I am looking very closely at Uruguay.

I’m not looking at it so much as a way to avoid taxes but a way to minimize hyperinflation, wealth preservation, a more laid back lifestyle in a warmer environment, the ability to spend more time with my children, expose them to new experiences at a young age, foreign language immersion, etc.

The US is moving more towards quelling free speech, rewriting history, rewriting biology, cancel culture, doxing, etc. I said to my wife years ago that it saddens me to say that I don’t think that I will be able to retire in the country I grew up in and recent events seem to be accelerating the pace.

On another note, I found this in an article about the best places for Americans to retire. Portugal was number 1 and I would be fine with that but my wife has no love for Europe. Costa Rica was number 3 and here’s what they had to say about Panama:

Panama came in second place as the top 10 countries to retire in the world for Americans. Its overall score was 85.8 out of a hundred.

The following categories scored:

Housing: 88
Healthcare: 94
Cost of living: 89
In Panama, American retirees can easily get by on $2,600 per month, taking into account rent, groceries, utilities, and entertainment. This makes Panama one of the cheapest countries to live for retirement. Additionally, Panama boasts an affordable and quality healthcare system, with a doctor visit costing roughly between $20-$60. To top it off, the closest flight to the US is a mere three hours by plane.

@Banshee35 What is your ultimate goal? Are you looking for somewhere safe to raise your kids if the situation in the US becomes unstable? Are you trying to find some place where you can build an off-the-grid bunker with your preps and wait it out while the world burns down around you? Are you looking for somewhere tropical to retire where you can sit on the beach, drink cervezas, and stretch your retirement dollars farther than you can at home? Are you looking for a first world lifestyle that's similar to your life back home, but with less political division? Are you just trying to see the world? Narrowing down your specific goals is going to be pretty important when it comes to making this decision.

Why and how did you narrow down to Costa Rica, Belize, and Panama? Of the three, I would argue that Panama is the best choice--it has a viable (and fully dollarized) economy, English is pretty widely spoken, residency is relatively easy to get, and if you live there it offers significant tax benefits. But it's still a small country in Latin America, and that carries a lot of pitfalls. And, keep in mind, it's tremendously important on a strategic level, so if the entire world goes crazy, I'm not sure I'd want to be there.

As I mentioned in my comment earlier, start looking at whether you or your wife has a claim to dual citizenship with another country. This is important not just because it opens that country to you, but because that country may have agreements with other countries throughout the world. I am a dual US-Italian citizen. That opens the entire EU to me, as well as a handful of European territories throughout the world (French Polynesia, for example). It also allows me to live in Panama as a resident without going through the Friendly Nations residency program--Italy and Panama have had a bilateral treaty since the 60s, so even if they stop the Friendly Nations program, Italians will still be able to move there. A lot of countries have jus sanguinis citizenship, so if you have a recent ancestor from one of them you may be eligible. Ireland and Italy are the most famous. Israel extends the Right of Return not only to Jews, but also to the grandchildren of Jews. Lots of other countries have jus sanguinis rules too. It's worth examining. (For example, my family came from all over Europe. As a result, I'm currently an Italian citizen. I'm in the process of applying for Swiss citizenship. I'm eligible to register as a "Slovak living abroad," which carries some residency benefits if I ever move to Slovakia. If I learn to speak Hungarian, I can apply for Hungarian citizenship.)

Except for Self-employment tax.

Supposedly Estonia women are beautiful.

Wife and I are going to head down Baja, MX in about 2 years.
Still safe, rv space for a year is @ 3k, cheap enough to live there, can use our sxs as transportation, great weather, if it gets too hot, hook up, and start heading back North, hurricanes happen, again, hook up, and get out, fishing is great, and medical is cheap enough.

And good luck getting citizenship.

@ldl7071

Based on your criteria listed I would say somewhere safe to raise your kids - not waiting for things to become unstable. And looking for somewhere tropical to retire where you can sit on the beach, drink cervezas, and stretch your retirement dollars farther than you can at home?  while allowing it to happen earlier. And a little of this “looking for a first world lifestyle that's similar to your life back home, but with less political division?” Though I am realistic with the idea that things will not be as easy and comfy as back home.

Doing some more reading I found that property taxes on a $250K home runs $650! Hell, that alone saves me enough money to live well in Panama for over a month.

I dont recall a naturalization process.  No Swiss heritage, no dice.  Its been a while so might be wrong on that.  Anyway thats not an option unless you want to burn through your money twice as fast.  

Beautiful place to visit, but the message I got was:  “Look around, now get out”.

I think they had a process if you lived there long enough.

Now? Don't think it's possible.

I left a long time ago, but the US is always nice but I cannot keep up with the cultural changes IE Im white so I get blamed for everything.  The US is almost like a foreign country and culture at this point.  Yet there is land in the US.  To be an expatriate requires a lot.  Investments, cut right to the chase outright buy offs and purchases, etc.  Chile would have been nice, but commies suck shit and guess what, your marked already.  Find land and homestead, use the various banking methods IE Ireland Lichtenstein Cayman Isles Belgium Netherlands Brazil Panama  etc.   It will never be home to you though.

Parts of Budapest are beautiful. The rest of the country...well, it feels like it spent 60 years getting kicked in the teeth by Communism. It's better than it used to be, but it's not great. The economy is shit. Orban, while I agree with a handful of things he's done, is half crazy. Despite being ethnically Hungarian and having the option to pursue Hungarian citizenship, I wouldn't live in Hungary right now if it weren't absolutely necessary.



Lol. You're talking about the Argentina that has defaulted on its sovereign debt twice this fucking century? The Argentina that is currently experiencing inflation over 40%. That's a really piss poor plan for a place to move. Does @ferfal still post here?



This. Chile was a good option. It is, unfortunately, not such a good idea now.



Scoring a good deal on a vacation because a country has a shit economy is a completely different story than loading your eggs into that country's basket and moving there. I would choose Panama over Greece every day of the week and twice on Sunday.



You can't own property there, though.



I get it. But having a backup plan isn't a bad idea. I don't like the idea of burying a gun. But if you ever need it you're gonna be really happy you took the time to stash one somewhere.



Even if you renounce your American citizenship, the IRS still claims that you owe taxes for a period after renunciation. However, if you work remote for a company in the US, living in Panama does get you off the hook for the first 108k USD in income (the US government doesn't tax the first $108,000 in foreign earned income, and Panama only taxes income from Panamanian companies).



The bad news is that if the US experiences hyperinflation, the economy is going to be hyperfucked all over the world. (The good news is that hyperinflation really isn't terribly likely right now.) If you're planning on that, be careful with Panama. Their economy is fully dollarized.



Have you considered something like the USVI or Puerto Rico? You'll get a lot of the benefits, less of the risk, and they're somewhat removed from the normal American politics, so there may be a bit of a buffer between whatever is going on on the mainland and what's going on on the island.



That's not entirely true. There are ways to naturalize as Swiss without Swiss heritage. But it takes an absurdly long time, and even then it's not guaranteed. (There was a story a few years ago about a woman in a rural canton who had lived there for 20 years whose application was rejected because her neighbors didn't think she was integrated enough into Swiss culture.) It's possible to become a Swiss citizen, but it's not easy, and it's not cheap.

My grandmother was Swiss, and I'm applying for facilitated naturalization right now. Even with ties to Switzerland and Swiss culture, it's a difficult process.

Home is no longer home, either.

I was going to post Belize Would be my first choice.

Having visited Panama a few times for work here are some other benefits: its a major city (Panama city), good hospitals (we had a sailor there for emergency appendectomy surgery), good airport for flights to US, central and south America, many in the city spoke passable english, they use/accept dollars (and return balboas), few hours and you're in the jungle rain forest or on Caribbean beaches. decent restaurants and nightlife. pretty sure you can buy land out there.

downside, PC has horrible traffic, some poverty, prostitution is legal, mail service sucks/doesn't exist, contractors/workers can be scammers, no/limited gun ownership (didn't really ask about it) (edit: stand corrected, no idea about it there), hot as balls.

not sure I'd live there permanently but living abroad for some period of time would be cool and great experience for kids.

I have a lovely ocean front property on Dominica that the government won't give me a license to run a bussiness from.   It's a Jurassic Park island where you need a 4x4 to drive around. Local beer is cheap and food is cheap.

Portugal flies under the radar a lot, and it's a nice place. We honeymooned in the Algarve, and have gone back several times on vacation.

Never lived there, but based on the time I've spent it's probably worth a look.

Take me out to the black.... tell 'em I ain't comin' back.

Don't even THINK about owning a firearm in Greece. The possession of any piece of a firearm is instant jail time. Find a trigger guard to a 100 year old Gras in a field? Go to jail.

Not true. Panama even allows concealed carry.

had no idea. most people I asked weren't interested in it and thought it was illegal and I never really looked into it. They for sure had heavy police presence in the touristy parts to keep people coming. I really liked it there.

One of the guys I worked with is married to a lady from there. They are
planning on moving there when he retires.

I was going to visit them last year when they went over for
vacation but then we had the china virus....

Just move to a free state? Honestly you won’t find much better. Ok you won’t get all the woke PC race baiting bullshit you get in the US constantly but stay in the states.

Spain might be worth a shout. Possibly Portugal don’t know about gun laws there but you can own guns in Spain. ( for now)

Balkans always popular, Croatia but that boat has sailed property prices shot up  a while ago.

A relative has a place in the country in Bosnia it’s awesome.

Just avoid the Uk it’s a shithole.

I'm a remote worker, as is my wife. I'm almost 50, she's 10 years younger. We have some earning years ahead of us.

Bump for continued interest and discussion.

I have narrowed my, uh... vacation home down to Panama and Estonia.

Where in Estonia?

Bartlesville Oklahoma

Does this mean one could withdrawal that much from an IRA without paying taxes each year?

Maybe somewhere rural within the states? I’m not living anywhere that I can’t protect myself.

Is your desire to get to a better place than the US?  Because I'm not seeing it on that list.  If you were single and wanted to surround yourself with hot young women, but run out of money,   I can see the US not working out for you.

Wrong.

Of course there are better places.

Have a friend that lives there and he said it's a pain in the ass, even if you marry a local.

I have my doubts on that, I haven't gone that deeply into it yet as I'm still in my earning years.

However you get a LOT of discounts and benefits if you get a pensionado visa/residency, and you may not have to take out as much from your IRA each year to live as you would in the US...

50% off entertainment anywhere in the country (movies, concerts, sports)
30% off domestic transportation fares (trains, buses, public transportation, boats)
25% off domestic and international flights
50% off midweek hotel stays
30% off weekend hotel stays
25% off at sit-down restaurants
15% off at fast-food restaurants
15% off hospital bills (if no insurance applies)
10% off prescription medicines
20% off doctors visits
15% off dental and eye exams
20% off professional and technical services
50% reduction in closing costs for home loans
25% discounts on utility bills
15% off loans made in your name
1% off home mortgages for homes used for personal residence

Does it have plum trees?

I would love to do that for Poland, but the proof required and process sounds like a bitch.

[DELETED]

Guess it's just me.

I think that’s part of it but in my case also because it would allow me to retire earlier. Live a simpler live in a climate I would enjoy more. Live cheaper and see a different part of the world.

Oh, and all that stuff you said

I think my wife is coming around somewhat and we are talking about doing a 3 week trip down there this summer to feel it out and have a vacation.

Whatever skippy

I have a rather rare German last name and there's more people in Argentina trying to get in touch with my family members on FB than there are here in the US  Although my 'German' side came here pre WWII.

Just gotta find where any one of us fits in.  I always miss the US though. I'm always the foreigner//gaikokujin but I get treated better than the US government- guess home what anyone decides is home.

Spent 2 weeks in Zagreb and surrounding area. This would absolutely be on my short list.

Extremely western/first-world, very safe, Mediterranean climate, and stupid cheap compared to here. Restaurants & breweries/etc in Zagreb were just phenomenal; better than most US cities. You’d never have guessed the Yugoslav wars were a thing just 30 years ago.

I could live the rest of my life there if I had a job lined up and things got bad enough here.

They like you now and butchering you would be bad for business.

When the dollar tanks, the foreign aid stops and the economic dominoes fall, it will be your fault.

Then the nice folks at the grocery store will look the other way while you get macheted.

Take your chances in Wyoming or Idaho.

Fuck all that.  I've got deep roots here that sustain me and I'm not leaving.  You want to cut and run?  Good luck, amigo.  

Baja Mexico.  Panama.
Shit.

When the USA shits the bed, we will take the world economy down, with us.  When that happens, you will be the outsider, rich, American, gringo that fucked the local economy. You might last a month. But you and your family will not last 90 days.

My parents thought moving out of the country would be a great experience for me too, but it fucked me up bad. I needed stability and confidence. A new, unfamiliar country and language destroyed that.

Your kids’ mileage may vary.

CR is not a friend of non-natives.  A foreigner can’t have a business there easily, nor work at it if you did own one.  You have to employ citizens.  Real estate isn’t protected.  You leave, someone squats, you are out of luck.  A friend has a 2nd home in the Caribbean and told me about the squatters in CR. She only goes to her island home occasionally, but it’s safe from be stolen.  There’s more, but CR is only good to visit. There’s a reason outsiders live in gated communities, etc.

Not easy or quick to get a gun license and quite restricted. I knew a few expats that had them.

If you ever used it for self defense at least you would be alive...in prison.

We've been looking at Portugal.