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You're kidding, right.
Before you make such an asinine statement, you'd better start providing UCMJ cites.  It's obvious that you're unqualified to reference the UCMJ on the matter.

--snip-- acting clandestinely or under false pre-tenses, that person obtains or seeks to obtain information with the intent to convey it to a hostile party. It is not essential that the accused obtain the information sought or that it be communicated. The offense is complete with lurking or acting clandestinely or under false pretenses with intent to accomplish these objects.

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I have to chime in here. Based on the fact that the terrorist was dressed in an Iraqi police uniform. Col. West is entitled to execute him on the spot as a spy per the Geneva Coventions.( I had that class) Col. West actually gave the guy a break, in hindsight he should have shot the P.O.S. Col. West is the kind of leader the military is losing every year due to PC bull and as a result the military is becoming ineffective.

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A soldier's job is to obey orders.

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Does anybody even [i]bother[/i] to do the research, anymore?

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Apparantly not.  
If he was a spy, then he is not entitled to EPW satus.  He must, however, be tried for spying under the laws of the capturing nation.  
No commander has the authorization to execute anybody.  Any breaches of the law of warfare which require execution MUST be tried in a military or civilian court.  
You barracks lawyers are cracking me up.
For reference, I am quoting directly out of the CGSC text.  I also just finished my military law exam.  

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Apparantly not.  
If he was a spy, then he is not entitled to EPW satus.  He must, however, be tried for spying under the laws of the capturing nation.  
No commander has the authorization to execute anybody.  Any breaches of the law of warfare which require execution MUST be tried in a military or civilian court.  
You barracks lawyers are cracking me up.
For reference, I am quoting directly out of the CGSC text.  I also just finished my military law exam.  

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Apparantly not.  
If he was a spy, then he is not entitled to EPW satus.  He must, however, be tried for spying under the laws of the capturing nation.  
No commander has the authorization to execute anybody.  Any breaches of the law of warfare which require execution MUST be tried in a military or civilian court.  
You barracks lawyers are cracking me up.
For reference, I am quoting directly out of the CGSC text.  I also just finished my military law exam.  

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I could say, "Hey asshole..." but I will refrain from that. I will simply say that, as a military man yourself, you should know that any enemy combatant wearing clothing that suggests he is NOT an enemy combatant can be executed ON THE SPOT. Likewise, civilians (non-uniformed) who take up arms in time of war can be executed ON THE SPOT as well.

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LTC West disserves many things for his actions.  I do not doubt that he knew he was breaking the law when he did what he did, but he did it anyway to save his men.  He also stepped up to the plate afterwards.  He disserved to get brought up on charges.  

Is what he did against the law?  Yes.  Would I have done the same if I were in his position?  Damn right.  The welfare of my men outweighs whatever legal shit storm follows.  He saved the lives of his men.  Knowing the consequences of his actions he still acted.  Now he is paying for those actions, as he should.  

I don’t argue that he was wrong or that he should have been punished for his actions.  I also don’t doubt that after he was told he was being discharged he was taken into a back room and told he did a damn fine job saving his men.  The army did what they needed to do, as did LTC West.  

I have served under commanders that valued the lives and wellbeing of their men higher then there own.  I would follow them to hell, even today.

Sgt
USMC
1st LAR Bn
C Co 1st Plt

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Fine. You guys are right. He should be strung up.






Were I back in, I'd pray to God that I had a clone of him for a CO.

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A soldier's job is to obey orders.

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LTC West disserves many things for his actions.  I do not doubt that he knew he was breaking the law when he did what he did, but he did it anyway to save his men.  He also stepped up to the plate afterwards.  He disserved to get brought up on charges.  

Is what he did against the law?  Yes.  Would I have done the same if I were in his position?  Damn right.  The welfare of my men outweighs whatever legal shit storm follows.  He saved the lives of his men.  Knowing the consequences of his actions he still acted.  Now he is paying for those actions, as he should.  

I don’t argue that he was wrong or that he should have been punished for his actions.  I also don’t doubt that after he was told he was being discharged he was taken into a back room and told he did a damn fine job saving his men.  The army did what they needed to do, as did LTC West.  

I have served under commanders that valued the lives and wellbeing of their men higher then there own.  I would follow them to hell, even today.

Sgt
USMC
1st LAR Bn
C Co 1st Plt

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The SS used the same rationale as their main defense at Nuremberg after World War II. It didn't fly then and it don't fly now.

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It is a very simple fact that Lt Cols do not make policy.  Col. West forgot that and was treated lightly.
I would have done the same thing, but the matter remains that the Army brass cannot allow Lt. Cols to make policy or disobey direct orders.  By acting to save his unit an officer can lose the war.  They MUST do as they are told.

It is sometimes necessary for a soldier to die, or a unit to die, to prevent worse later or elsewhere.  A Lt Col is not in a position to know this, or to make this decision.  Otherwise we would not NEED higher ranking officers or civilian members of the govt.

Enlisted men are even less qualified to make the decisions, or to judge matters of discipline.

It's cold, hard, cruel fact.  The military is NOT a democracy.

Where he went wrong, really, is letting his men talk to the press about it.  Whoever let the press in on this deal sealed his fate; once it was public knowledge there was no way Command could let it slide.  No way at all.  That way lies anarchy, and anarchy in the military leads to shit like South America.
If he *had to* go out of the loop like this he *had to* keep it quiet.  Once he knew by confession that the Iraqi was a member of the resistance, he should have been shot as a spy and everyone STFU.

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Just in case you are as dumb aas this comment makes you seem, let me help you.

Lt. Col. West is the one who broke the Laws of Warfare, like the Nazis did that were condemned at Nuremburg.  Your position is that these rules may be broken at will when it is advantageous.  You are on the philosophical side of the SS.

My position is that International Laws of Warfare need to be followed.  I am taking a position on the side of the prosecution at Nuremburg.

His orders were to conduct his assigned operations in accorance with the rules set forth by his command, which includes following the laws of warfare.

He chose to break those laws, and got off with a light sentence only because no tangible harm has been traced back to his breach.

This sort of illegal handling of prisoners is tremendously dangerous to all Americans in the war zone.  If word gets out that the Amis do not respect prisoners, then you can expect all future American prisoners to be tortured and then killed.  The Arabs who do it will be able to say that they fight savages, and they have to play like they (we) do in order to survive.  

THAT is the legacy of this behaviour. Great long-term harm for a short term gain.  Tell *those* men that West acted properly.  He may have lost a hundred to save a dozen.

The difference between tactics and strategy.  I thought even a NCO understood matters like this.
Evidently not.

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You may be legally right, but you are morally in left field. Way left.

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Actually, he is pretty much quoting out of the military law manuals.  
That is why officers are instructed to not do those things.  When we torture prisoners, we lose our moral standing to punish those who do the same thing.
We discourage people to surrender, thus making them fight harder and cause more casualties.
The reason so many of our enemies surrender to us is because we have the reputation of treating our prisoners humanely.  
LTC West's actions threatened all of that if we had failed to prosecute him.  
LTC West made the determination that the immediate demands of the mission outweighed his current orders.  He doesn't get to do that.

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No, you are just seemingly unable to grasp the long term harm and magnitude of American deaths his actions may have caused.
And unless you start doing fact and logic instead of emotion, I am done with you on this issue.
BTW, you lost.

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This isn't about winning or losing. It is about having the balls to do what you know is right no matter the consequences. I am also done with you on this subject. You belong over at DU with the rest of your Clintonite bretheren.

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a very important rule in war: there are no rules. thou shalt win at all costs.

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Name calling.  You have no clue about my poitics, so just STFU about that.

Anyway, I am starting to get the idea I shouldn't wait for any Christmas cards from you.

I am crushed.

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You really aren't too quick, are you son?

Look at the last post by me to you, did it address the topic at all?  No?

Well, see!

[hint] BTW, this one doesn't either [/hint]

Bye now!

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locked...pissing match......[:P]

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You may be legally right, but you are morally in left field. Way left.


This isn't about winning or losing. It is about having the balls to do what you know is right no matter the consequences. I am also done with you on this subject. You belong over at DU with the rest of your Clintonite bretheren.

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Actually, he is pretty much quoting out of the military law manuals.  
That is why officers are instructed to not do those things.  When we torture prisoners, we lose our moral standing to punish those who do the same thing.
We discourage people to surrender, thus making them fight harder and cause more casualties.
The reason so many of our enemies surrender to us is because we have the reputation of treating our prisoners humanely.  
LTC West's actions threatened all of that if we had failed to prosecute him.  
LTC West made the determination that the immediate demands of the mission outweighed his current orders.  He doesn't get to do that.

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[:\]  [:\]  [:\]  [:\]  [:\]

In the CNN.com's article on this subject, the prosecutor's name was listed.  That was not a smart thing to, because one of the Army types on this board (on any other board) could get on AKO and look up her e-mail address, post it here (or on any other board), and people may e-mail her telling her what they think about her decision to prosecute--and some of those e-mails may not be positive.

[^]  [^]  [^]  [^]
Personally, I think LTC Allen acted properly.  Many of you would have done the same thing.  It is a sad day in the history of the Army when some REMF lawyer can second guess the actions of a combat infantryman, while that infantryman was enganged in combat; AND when the infantryman's actions prooved his suspicions correct.  Boys, in some cases--like combat--the end DOES justify the means.

[wave] [wave] [wave] [wave] [wave]
We cannot defeat terrorist tactics, using conventional tactics.  I don't buy the "professional soldier" rap either.  In fact, LTC Allen displayed more of the professional soldier type behavior than that prosecutor did. . . . What would you have LTC Allen do, sit the guy down for a chat and HOPE he would reveal the infromation Allen obtained.  I can see it now, "oh, by the way, we have an ambush set up down the road; and oh by the way you are the target of that ambush."

GET REAL

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That is so wrong on so many levels.

Bu-bye!   [wave]

Please accept this heartfelt salute from a grateful old Marine. This salute is first of all for your bravery and belief in honor, duty, and our Country. Just as those who have worn your khaki patch with the four green ivy leaves before you have brought honor and distinction, not only to your unit, the United States Army, but to every man and woman who proudly call ourselves Americans, in the last forty eight hours you, you boots on the ground, have graphically demonstrated to the world one of the many things that separates the American military from almost every other combatant in the world. No, its’ not your ability to “kick ass” although you do that quit well, not your ability to bring overwhelming firepower on a hostile target, not your mobility and ability to shoot and scoot like so many other men who have earned the coveted Combat Infantryman’s Badge, not your gifted, highly qualified Officer Corps or veteran NCOs who we all know really are the ones that guarantee the job is done so professionally and completely. No its’ not the complex, sophisticated equipment you carry and fight with that would have been unknown to your brothers from other wars fought by other generations. It is not even the reality that you each live by your unit’s motto, “Steadfast and Loyal”. While I believe every word is true and my admiration for you is off the chart, what warms my heart and brings a proud tear to my eye is the proof you gentlemen have offered the world that what separates America’s sons in combat is their humanity, decency, and integrity. Only an American combat unit will unleash hell on an enemy and punish them beyond their wildest dreams, but when the fight is over an American unit will offer medical help, food, and respect to the very enemy that minutes or hours before wanted to kill you!

When you located and pulled that slimy, cowering, barbaric piece of human excrement out of his filthy rat hole not a shot was fired. To be honest I don’t believe anyone would have criticized you for waxing this POS. No you didn’t do that! What you did do and I have no special information, but like millions of other proud Americans only know what the media is reporting, once he no longer presented a threat (we understand his two brave bodyguards were caught from behind as they ran away) was to bring American values to this despot. It was reported and as American I can believe it, Saddam was read his Miranda Rights. Gentlemen you brought American values seven thousand miles from home and Saddam’s first introduction to real American justice was to be alive, unhurt, and listening to his rights. Gentlemen thank you for demonstrating to the world that the American Army will pound an enemy into oblivion, level the landscape, and destroy an enemy’s very will to fight, but unlike America’s enemy you bring humanity to the battlefield. Now the world can see, if not acknowledge, the reality of the American fighting man. You are, each and every one of you, world class warriors, now know that under your uniform, deep inside your chest beats the heart of American. You didn’t need us with you the other night, we know you can take care of yourself, but you’re our son, our brother, our husband, or boyfriend. We were not there, you had to carry your own weapon, drink from your own canteen, and carry your own load. We all pray that your life was a little safer last night because on your left and right were other sons of other family’s and nowhere in the world could you be in better company.

Gentlemen please accept my heart felt gratitude and thanks. Once again you have proven to this old dog that young pups can still prove me wrong. You see when I fell asleep last night I would have thought it impossible to be any more proud of being an American, but you gentlemen of the 4th ID proved me wrong! Tonight I will safely lay my head down (safe because, to a large part, your efforts and sacrifice) even more grateful to my Italian immigrant grandfather for having the courage to want a better life and start a chain reaction that permitted me to have the privilege of being born in America and the satisfaction of knowing that my knowledge is now shared by millions of people in the rest of the world, “Not since the world witnessed the Legions of Rome defeat almost the entire world’s population we have not seen a mightier military, but unlike the Legions of Rome, no army has ever possessed the humanity of the American fighting man”.

Bill Clinton had sex with a young intern in the White House. That in itself was no big deal since a lot of other presidents before him had similiar affairs. But he lied to congress to save his ass, and we both know that is illegal. He suffered impeachment and public humiliation. And yet, this less-than-honorable individual was allowed to finish out his term.

Why?

First, because he is a lawyer who is well versed in legal-babble ("...it all depends on what your definition of the word 'is' is...") And second, because those who sat in judgement of him recognized the "degree" of his transgression and, even though they knew he was a guilty scumbag, they couldn't bring themselves to bring the full weight of max punishment down on him. And so this sorry excuse for a commander-in-chief got to finish out his term with little more than a slap on the wrist.

When it comes to lying to congress, what is the limit of fibbing that a public official can do to save his ass? Where do you draw the line?

You guys who are blathering the loudest about LTC West's "crimes" are obviously not military men, at least not the type responsible for leading men in combat.

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You guys who are blathering the loudest about LTC West's "crimes" are obviously not military men, at least not the type responsible for leading men in combat.