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Posted: 12/12/2003 8:43:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2003 1:55:31 PM EDT by Old_Painless]
Yesterday's thread about shooting through drywall walls:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=218312

Well, the thread yesterday left a few unanswered questions. So, Tman and I found time in our very busy schedules to go back to the range.

pale_pony asked about distance between the walls. So, we set the walls up 10 feet apart and covered the second wall with some butcher paper to help identify entrance holes. (We were too cheap to get new drywall.) Here's the setup.



We were asked by brouhaha to test M193. So we did and also some Q3131. My buddy that is a SWAT member met us there with some Federal 55gr JHPs that they use for entry, so we could test it also.

You will note that the M193 went through the second wall straight as an arrow. The Federal JHP was obviously mushrooming and made a bigger hole. Both seemed to be traveling rather quickly after the second wall.


Notice that the Q3131 entered the second wall sideways.



I show this pic because it is cool. If you look closely, from the exit of the second wall, you can see the entrance of the second wall.



I was asked about VMAX bullets. I had some handloads using 50gr VMAX bullets. I believe these duplicate the popular TAP ammo used by many police depts. You will notice that it made two holes in the second wall. We supposed that it either broke in two or the jacket and core seperated.



ProfGAB101, Hyguy, and norman74 asked about birdshot. Needless to say, I did this experiment last.

I used #6 shot, Sellier & Bellot, 12 gauge, 2 3/4, 1 1/4 oz, 3 3/4 Dram EQ. from ten feet.



It did not penetrate the second wall, but only "peppered" the wall. The shot cup get caught in the butcher's paper, but did not penetrate. No pellets exited the second wall.



Well, there you have it, boys. everything there is to know about shooting through walls

Well, maybe not.


Link Posted: 12/12/2003 8:58:33 AM EDT
Good deal. Hopefully I'll have some more to add after this weekend. I am still curious as to the energy the rounds have before hitting the second wall. Have to work on that this weekend. Some of us have to be at WORK during the week, and dont have all this free time.... [:D]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 9:01:35 AM EDT
[:D] I like that picture that you can see the entrance of the first bullet in the picture as well. It looks like it rotated quite a bit. One question though, is that first bullet hole sideways at it looks also? Isn't there some kind of problem if the bullet hits the first wall sideways?
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 9:07:38 AM EDT
Can you test .50 BMG next? Was thinking of getting a Barrett for home defense... [:D] CW
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 9:17:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Rickyj: [:D] I like that picture that you can see the entrance of the first bullet in the picture as well. It looks like it rotated quite a bit. One question though, is that first bullet hole sideways at it looks also? Isn't there some kind of problem if the bullet hits the first wall sideways?
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I liked that pic myself. Remember, the bullet had already gone through a wall consisting of 2 sheets of 1/2 inch drywall. It then crossed a 10 foot gap and entered the second wall sideways. The pic shows that it was still tumbling as it went through the third and fourth pieces of drywall. I was surprised yesterday to note that even after tumbling throught the second wall, the round went through a 2 inch piece of wood. It would still hurt.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 9:24:17 AM EDT
[noclue] Do'h! It was even labeled that way! I guess that finals are really taxing my brain. I was thinking that was the hole in the first piece of drywall. [:D] Thanks for the clarification. I guess that I will just stay quiet now to avoid looking too much like an idiot. [LOL]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 9:27:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 9:29:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Rickyj: I guess that I will just stay quiet now to avoid looking too much like an idiot. [LOL]
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Don't worry. Looking like an idiot is nothing big around here. [:D]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 9:31:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cold_Warrior: Can you test .50 BMG next? Was thinking of getting a Barrett for home defense... [:D] CW
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I may need a couple more sheets of drywall...[:D]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 9:37:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 9:41:08 AM EDT
Nice work - now build yourself a couple different brick and stuccos wall and have at them [;)] People who live in plasterboard houses shouldn't throw stones.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:12:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2003 10:14:18 AM EDT by Old_Painless]
Originally Posted By DVDTracker: And the lesson we learned kiddies? If you're going to shoot a skinny, make sure there is drywall in front of him.
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Even though this exercise has been fun, I've tried to learn something valuable through these efforts. I believe it is this: 1. Interior walls in houses provide concealment (hide you), but do not provide cover (stop bullets). Therefore, be sure you hit the bad guys and do not miss, if possible. For me, that means using a rifle if possible as that is what I shoot most accurately. 2. Shotguns are a close second power-wise, but they penetrate much worse, at least with Buckshot. I wouldn't use birdshot for defence if I had a choice. 3. Shotguns must be aimed. A 2 3/4 inch pattern leaves a lot of room to miss. I am weary of reading posts that say, "With a shot gun you don't even have to aim." When someone says that, they don't know what they are talking about. 4. Handguns (and rifles in handgun calibers) are no better at not penetrating walls. They may indeed be worse. So, don't miss the bad guy if there are non-combatants in the next room. 5. Remember, you are responsible for every bullet or shot that goes down range. [b]Rule #4: Be sure of your target and what is behind it.[/b] Or as Clint Smith says, "Every bullet that goes down range has a lawyer tied to it." If, God forbid, we ever have to shoot in defense of our homes, perhaps this will make us more knowledgable and effective. It's all about knowing facts, not having unsubstantiated opinions.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:29:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2003 10:30:14 AM EDT by HKocher]
Originally Posted By Old_Painless: 5. Remember, you are responsible for every bullet or shot that goes down range. [b]Rule #4: Be sure of your target and what is behind it.[/b] Or as Clint Smith says, "Every bullet that goes down range has a lawyer tied to it."
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So we should NOT dump a 30rd mag back at the badguy, reload, and repeat??? You do realize this is going to disappoint a lot of the membership here??? [:D]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:33:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HKocher:
Originally Posted By Old_Painless: 5. Remember, you are responsible for every bullet or shot that goes down range. [b]Rule #4: Be sure of your target and what is behind it.[/b] Or as Clint Smith says, "Every bullet that goes down range has a lawyer tied to it."
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So we should NOT dump a 30rd mag back at the badguy, reload, and repeat??? You do realize this is going to disappoint a lot of the membership here??? [:D]
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No, no! Go ahead. Just be sure of your backstop. [:D]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:35:10 AM EDT
I'd say the lesson to be learned here is DON'T MISS!
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:42:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By Rickyj: I guess that I will just stay quiet now to avoid looking too much like an idiot. [LOL]
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Don't worry. Looking like an idiot is nothing big around here. [:D]
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Tell me about it [;)] Cool pics - I really learned something today. Thanks O_P
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:47:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Paul: Nice work - now build yourself a couple different brick and stuccos wall and have at them [;)] People who live in plasterboard houses shouldn't throw stones.
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exactly, I have a brick house with plaster/lath walls.....where is the simulation for that? [;D]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:59:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By Rickyj: I guess that I will just stay quiet now to avoid looking too much like an idiot. [LOL]
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Don't worry. Looking like an idiot is nothing big around here. [:D]
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Tell me about it [;)] Cool pics - I really learned something today. Thanks O_P
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Wish I had thought about you. I'd have taken a pic of someone shooting the walls with both legs in the same leg-hole of their underwear. [:D]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 11:12:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HKocher:
Originally Posted By Old_Painless: 5. Remember, you are responsible for every bullet or shot that goes down range. [b]Rule #4: Be sure of your target and what is behind it.[/b] Or as Clint Smith says, "Every bullet that goes down range has a lawyer tied to it."
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So we should NOT dump a 30rd mag back at the badguy, reload, and repeat??? You do realize this is going to disappoint a lot of the membership here??? [:D]
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I got rid of my jet ski just so I wouldnt have to worry about doing a back yard mag dump. I feel much better now.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 11:24:45 AM EDT
Is anyone else shocked that the m193 did not fragment after the first wall? Good work Old_Painless.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 11:30:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ngog_Nrythrng: Is anyone else shocked that the m193 did not fragment after the first wall? Good work Old_Painless.
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I was, a little. But the evidence seems to suggect that military ball tends to tumble after the first wall.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 11:41:50 AM EDT
Again, more good stuff!
Originally Posted By Old_Painless: 3. [red]Shotguns must be aimed.[/red] A 2 3/4 inch pattern leaves a lot of room to miss. I am weary of reading posts that say, "With a shot gun you don't even have to aim." When someone says that, they don't know what they are talking about... 5. Remember, you are responsible for every bullet or shot that goes down range.
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Link Posted: 12/12/2003 11:56:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dolomite: Again, more good stuff!
Originally Posted By Old_Painless: 3. [red]Shotguns must be aimed.[/red] A 2 3/4 inch pattern leaves a lot of room to miss. I am weary of reading posts that say, "With a shot gun you don't even have to aim." When someone says that, they don't know what they are talking about... 5. Remember, you are responsible for every bullet or shot that goes down range.
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I've been screaming that for years.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 12:04:39 PM EDT
This is fantastic! Thanks so much for sharing this [b]real[/b] test information! Keep up the great work.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 12:13:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DzlBenz: This is fantastic! Thanks so much for sharing this [b]real[/b] test information! Keep up the great work.
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Shoot! I'm about worn out. [:D] Thanks. We enjoyed it. I took about 50 pictures and can only post a few. I wish you guys could see them all. They are pretty interesting. That's what I love about this hobby. There's always lots more to learn.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 12:37:37 PM EDT
[b]Old_Painless![/b] you 'da man! Thanks so much for your tireless effort and contributions to education! [hail2] [red]Barnyard Ballistics![/red]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 1:36:03 PM EDT
[ignorance]b-b-b-but wait, shotguns penetrate less than .223, you should NEVER use an AR inside...and besides, racking shotguns intimidates people and ARs dont.[/ignorance]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 1:41:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By pale_pony: [b]Old_Painless![/b] you 'da man! Thanks so much for your tireless effort and contributions to education! [hail2] [red]Barnyard Ballistics![/red]
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You're certainly welcome. [bow]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 1:47:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: [ignorance]b-b-b-but wait, shotguns penetrate less than .223, you should NEVER use an AR inside...and besides, racking shotguns intimidates people and ARs dont.[/ignorance]
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You're so right, Lumpy. But myths are hard to kill. Wanna bet someone, in the near future, says one of your quotes? Didn't think so. [:D] By the way, even though I racked my pump shotgun several times during these tests, neither me nor anyone else there felt the urge to soil ourselves. I wish there was a test I could take pics of that would prove this. But anyone that thinks a bad guy that has broken into your home with the intention of killing you will be frightened by the sound of a pump, is living in fantasy land. As Clint Smith says, "If you want to scare him, get a rubber mask". I don't want to scare him. I intend to Stop him.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 1:58:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2003 2:00:55 PM EDT by IowaSam]
exactly, I have a brick house with plaster/lath walls.....where is the simulation for that? I was able to experiment with an abandoned farmhouse that my father-in-law owned. Using a .410 shotgun with birdshot from approx. 10 feet put a 5 inch hole in the plaster. However the lathe board that the plaster was on was not penetrated and small dents were visible in the lathe board where the pellets hit.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 2:29:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HKocher:So we should NOT dump a 30rd mag back at the badguy, reload, and repeat???
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Originally Posted By Old_Painless: No, no! Go ahead. Just be sure of your [red]backstop[/red]. [:D]
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Most definitely go ahead!! But please, please be careful when I'm in the area! Great test man. Just curious: what length is the barrel and what is the choke on the shotgun?
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 2:49:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Backstop: Great test man. Just curious: what length is the barrel and what is the choke on the shotgun?
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As I explained in the other thread, it is a Mossberg Maverick 12 gauge pump, with the barrel sawed-off to 19 inches and no choke at all. I bought the gun from Academy for $136, brand new, on sale. It shoots just fine. Very satisfied with it. And the good news is that I can leave it available and if it is ever stolen, I'm only out $136.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 2:49:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By IowaSam: I was able to experiment with an abandoned farmhouse that my father-in-law owned. Using a .410 shotgun with birdshot from approx. 10 feet put a 5 inch hole in the plaster. However the lathe board that the plaster was on was not penetrated and small dents were visible in the lathe board where the pellets hit.
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thanks, I was pretty sure that plaster/lathe walls would hold up to quite a bit of abuse.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 4:00:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless: ...Mossberg Maverick 12 gauge pump, with the barrel sawed-off to 19 inches and no choke at all...
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Thanks.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 4:19:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless: By the way, even though I racked my pump shotgun several times during these tests, neither me nor anyone else there felt the urge to soil ourselves.
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Trust me, the type that would be intimidated by it would be intimidated by you confronting their stupidity in progress in any way. The rest could give a crap less unless they are absolutely convinced you WILL shoot them.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 4:24:18 PM EDT
Hmmmm.... this gits me to thinkin'. If I hear someone in the house and get up to investigate, I've always thought that the hallway outside the bedroom door-it's about 30ft long and 3 1/2ft wide-would be an excellent kill zone (if need be). However, looks like any rounds I miss the perp with are gonna ventilate my Toyota in the garage (60ft away from BR door, 2 layers of 1/2" drywall). Can't win for losing. Guess I'd have to get a new truck, and those won't be bullet hole decals on my truck until then.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 4:31:37 PM EDT
Old Painless, Thanks for your time, effort, and your educational posts. I Does anyone out there still think #6 is a good home defense load?
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 4:37:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By gamesniper: Hmmmm.... this gits me to thinkin'. If I hear someone in the house and get up to investigate, I've always thought that the hallway outside the bedroom door-it's about 30ft long and 3 1/2ft wide-would be an excellent kill zone (if need be). However, looks like any rounds I miss the perp with are gonna ventilate my Toyota in the garage (60ft away from BR door, 2 layers of 1/2" drywall). Can't win for losing. Guess I'd have to get a new truck, and those won't be bullet hole decals on my truck until then.
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A serious question deserves a serious answer... If my or my family's lives are in danger, do you think I would care about my vehicle? I don't think so. Trucks are replaceable; people aren't. I will shoot any [b]thing[/b] I own full of holes to save me or family members. And, also importantly, my plan is for the bad guys will soak up the ordinance. Not my walls or vehicles.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 4:48:31 PM EDT
You need insulation and other "obstacles" within the wall A few years ago I did a test with my 44-40 (it was my defence gun at the time) I use 2x4 walls with 1/2" drywall, suitable insulation, but also ran soem lumex through it and had a swithc and plug box in it, just for shits and giggles, wanted to see if the bullet would penetrate all the way through, and what it woudl do to the wet canvas I had hanging behind (wanted to capture bullets as well, see expansion of hollowpoints I was using) I also built a 2x6 wall, used 3/4" firegurad drywall on one side, 6mil vapor barrier, 5/8" sheeting on the other, and had some old aluminum siding I slapped on, no plug boxes (they did not do much to the round before), the rounds penetrates, though passthrough was erratic at best, I just wanted to find out if my neighbours might be in danger, the siding seemed to catch many of the rounds, others got caught in the 2x6 of course, they were only doing around 850-900 FPS I need to do the same with an AR now I have one, hmmm, never thought of doing two walls like you did.... thanks for the ideas and info [:D]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 5:18:07 PM EDT
Painless: Check out the last line of the post. I WILL sacrifice the truck to protect the family. My musing was that in my woke-up-from-a-sleep-and-the adrenaline-is-pumping-away-state I really HOPE that I can keep all my shots on target, and what will happen if I don't. BTW, That is EXCELLENT work you've done. Whenever I go out shooting, I usually only take targets and plastic bottles. However, one of my neighbors and shooting buddies is a carpenter. We'll have to put together a few scenarios of our own. Thanks for the ideas.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 5:21:27 PM EDT
Well, just for the record, I have 3" magnum turkey loads of #6. Out of my Remington 870 they will beat you near to death if you're not used to shooting them (and to be honest I'm not anymore).
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 5:24:51 PM EDT
cool threads, I was going to do something similar, but as usual my laziness has kept it from happening yet
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