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Posted: 12/12/2003 8:32:15 AM EDT
When/How did the transformation occur, from god being vengeful and jealous "i'll drown the whole world" in the old testament, to the loving and caring god in the new testament.
And I think it was St. Paul (i may be wrong) who spoke of humans being disgusting crap again.
I don't mean to start a flame war or be offensive, but thats a question thats been on my mind, and since there are other treads about religion on, I thought, why not?
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 8:38:29 AM EDT
I didn't know that God changed his mind. Last I knew, the wicked will still perish in the eternal flame along with Satan.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 8:43:04 AM EDT
The new testament seems to be a bit too PC to me. I too am curious as to how the change came about.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 8:44:35 AM EDT
God is not vengful. He's rightous. It also explains His self-description as "jealous". The only thing in the universe God hates is sin. He won't stand for it. That's why His Son came down here to save us all.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 8:47:12 AM EDT
God did not change. He is still jealous. The thing is, all the things that happened had to happen to bring the world to the point it needed to be at when Jesus was born. Of course, sinful men meddled and mucked up the plan at every turn, but God kept it on track and delivered His Son to us so that He might die as the price for our sin. When Jesus did die for our sin, the wrath of God was upon HIM. The Old Testament is full of loving and caring. It starts in Genesis when He tells Adam and Eve that even tho they screwed it all up, God would take care of it all and provide for them to be reconciled with Him. It goes on from there. Scott
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 8:47:49 AM EDT
This is where it gets interesting.... Zaph...you said "to save us all.." but the book talks about only the 144,000 being saved, where does that leave the rest?
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 8:56:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By StariVojnik: This is where it gets interesting.... Zaph...you said "to save us all.." but the book talks about only the 144,000 being saved, where does that leave the rest?
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Please cite chapter and verse. Also, I'm not a Jejovah's Witness. There is no room limit in Heaven...
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 8:57:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By StariVojnik: This is where it gets interesting.... Zaph...you said "to save us all.." but the book talks about only the 144,000 being saved, where does that leave the rest?
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Please cite chapter and verse. Also, I'm not a Jejovah's Witness. There is no room limit in Heaven...
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 9:00:03 AM EDT
Neither am I, I don't have a Bible handy, but I think its in Revelations....shoot, now I wish I had it with me. Does anyone else know the verse from Revelations?
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 9:01:09 AM EDT
The answers to your questions can be found by reading: "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" and "The Messianic Legacy" both by Richard Leigh, Henry Lincoln, Michael Baigent And these two books by Tom Bushby: "The Bible Fraud" and "The Secret in the Bible" Once it is understood who wrote what parts and how the "original" Torah (and who wrote that) was edited into the King James I Version Bible by Sir Francis Bacon and where and how the Hebrew language itself was derived at, your confusion will go away. Far too complicated a subject to write here, but those 4 books above will explain things far better than me. Mike
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 9:02:31 AM EDT
It is from Revelation. 12,000 from 12 tribes. However...Revelation is a book of symbols and numerology. It's not a litteral account. God never put a capacity limit in heaven. The Bible says (in a more literal book) that He disires that ALL MEN be saved. Scott
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 9:03:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Originally Posted By StariVojnik: This is where it gets interesting.... Zaph...you said "to save us all.." but the book talks about only the 144,000 being saved, where does that leave the rest?
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Please cite chapter and verse. Also, I'm not a Jejovah's Witness. There is no room limit in Heaven...
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I believe he's referring to Rev. 7:4-- "And I heard the number of those who were sealed 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel."
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 9:03:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Lockedon: When/How did the transformation occur, from god being vengeful and jealous "i'll drown the whole world" in the old testament, to the loving and caring god in the new testament. And I think it was St. Paul (i may be wrong) who spoke of humans being disgusting crap again. I don't mean to start a flame war or be offensive, but thats a question thats been on my mind, and since there are other treads about religion on, I thought, why not?
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The answer to your question lies in the life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ. In the Old Testament sin was still occurring, and the only way for a person to be forgiven of their sins was to follow the Mosaic Laws set down in the Talmud (first 5 books of the Bible). These laws stated that a sinner (everyone) that is looking for forgiveness must sacrifice his best animal on an altar built to God under specific guidelines. There was no direct connection between people and God. Fast foreward to the New Testament and God giving His Son, Jesus to serve as the sacrificial lamb to be sacrificed for ALL of the sins of humankind (Jews and gentiles both). This sacrifice allowed the laws of the Talmud to still be followed but offered the additional benefit of a new, direct connection with God via the Holy Spirit. With this direct connection, God was able to interact with His people individually. And since we have the Bible's New Testament that further explained the way God would like us Gentiles to live our lives, we do need to be treated like errant pets that need a slap on the nose with a rolled up newspaper to learn a lesson. Another contributing factor is the Covenant God made with the Jews (the Ten Commandments) that basically said that if the Jews follow these rules, God would protect them from any other people that would do them harm. So the Old Testament is full of battles where God helped the Israelites kick butt on most anyne threatening them, but it is also full of episodes where the Israelites stopped following the Ten Commandments and were allowed, by God, to be captured as slaves (think Moses in Egypt). With the death and resurrection of Jesus, the previous Covenant was updated to include ALL humans, not just the Jews. This updated Covenant meant that punishment will now be meted out to the individual (spend eternity in Hell, away from God), not an entire nation (allow the entire nation to be captured as slaves). Hope this helps.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 9:07:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2003 9:20:28 AM EDT by JohnTheTexican]
Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican: I believe he's referring to Rev. 7:4-- "And I heard the number of those who were sealed 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel."
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But that's not the number saved. He goes on: "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb...." (Revelation 7:9)
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 9:10:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By StariVojnik: This is where it gets interesting.... Zaph...you said "to save us all.." but the book talks about only the 144,000 being saved, where does that leave the rest?
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This issue is known to some as the 'Jewish second chance' and many believe that this number is reflective of the number of Jews, directly descended from the original 12 tribes, that will believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah. These Jews are also known as Messianic Jews. The 144,000 does not have anything to do with all of us Gentiles (non-Jews).
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 9:17:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2003 9:19:49 AM EDT by StariVojnik]
[img]http://www.apocalipsis.org/image7-4.jpg[/img] So after the wicked are forever removed from God's presence, this will be then the 'new heaven on earth'. So we start all over again.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:00:21 AM EDT
1st of all, God didn't change - there was no transformation of God. The Old Testament shows what CANNOT save us - Human Works. The New Testament shows how we must be saved. Notice the Old Testament Saints looked forward to the Savior (Messiah). All Men and Women are Sinners - Old or New Testament makes no difference. The Old Testament is primarily about the Law - (the 10 Commandments) - and shows A) We can't keep the Law and B) if We don't keep the Law We die. The New Testament is primarily about Grace - Jesus (God in Human Flesh) living a Sinless life (Keeping the Law) - and dying in our place. The Grace part is that the Sinless One died for the Sinners. So, God doesn't change, and He judges Sin. We're all Sinners, and all roads really DO lead to God. Problem is it's a one-way street to judgement of Sin and not a "circle of life". We can never be "Good Enough" to cover our own Sins. Trusting in Jesus' work (Sins Covered by Him) is the only hope my friends. Accept the gift of Grace from the Grace-Giver!
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:23:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By StariVojnik: I didn't know that God changed his mind. Last I knew, the wicked will still perish in the eternal flame along with Satan.
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IIRC, that's not in the OT-Death and destruction for sure. The Devil and brimstone, Nope.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 1:57:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2003 1:58:31 PM EDT by machaira]
originally Posted By mr_wilson: "Once it is understood who wrote what parts and how the "original" Torah (and who wrote that) was edited into the King James I Version Bible by Sir Francis Bacon and where and how the Hebrew language itself was derived at, your confusion will go away." I see no Francis Bacon anywhere. The King James version was based on Wycliffes and Tyndales English New Testament translations, among others, and was compiled by 47 scholars under the authority of King James 1. In that time, political intrigue was prevalent but monkeying with the Scriptures and the churches work was considered treasonous. The scholars looked at all the oldest writings to determine authentic wording and clarity of verse. pretty well documented. the four books alluded to have been shown to have multiple errors in them. i would suggest finding the Christian Research Institute website and look thru some of Hank Hanegraffs stuff. Very good info.
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