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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:23:32 PM EDT
I think only 2 medal of honors were given in somalia and both were to delta right?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 12:27:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 12:32:20 PM EDT by eodtech2000]
Shughart and Gordon!!! [img]http://www4.localaccess.com/dixon/somalia/moh.jpg[/img] Gordan: [url]http://www.homeofheroes.com/moh/citations_1960_vn/zz_gordon.html [/url] Shughart: [url]http://www.homeofheroes.com/moh/citations_1960_vn/zz_shugart.html[/url]
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 12:29:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 12:31:08 PM EDT by E-95]
Master Sergeant Gary Ivan Gordon and Sergeant First Class Randall Shughart with U.S. Army Special Operations Command both received the Medal of Honor in Somalia. E-95
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 12:30:03 PM EDT
yup, they were the real deal, hero's
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 12:37:25 PM EDT
damn Gordon was hardcore taking em out with his pistol and telling the guy "good luck" not to monday morning quarterback but couldn't the blackhawks mow down the crowds of somalias??
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 12:43:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 12:44:37 PM EDT by SHIVAN]
[USA]
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 12:52:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mak762: damn Gordon was hardcore taking em out with his pistol and telling the guy "good luck" not to monday morning quarterback but couldn't the blackhawks mow down the crowds of somalias??
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after losing 2 choppers,command wasn't gonna send in more.Gordon and Shughart were informed of this and they went in ANYWAY giving thier lives so that the crew of one of the choppers might live.THAT is selflessness in the HIGHEST order.[bow]
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 12:58:35 PM EDT
wow that sucks just leave the pilot there?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 1:21:10 PM EDT
There were no indications that there were ANY survivors at the Durant crash site. They went in on the possibility that there might be survivors. Not to lesses their feat, but they probably felt that relief was likely in fairly short order. Poor planning for the kind of large scale counterattack that TFR encountered during the operation left them hanging out high and dry. The simple math of hundreds of Somali militia firing at just two Delta operators got the better of them. As far as other Blackhawks providing fire support from above, the problem with that is they had no precision munitions on board, so to provide accurate fire with miniguns and snipers they would have to fly relatively low and slow making them perfect targets for the Somali militia's RPG's. What they really needed was armored bulldozers or armored engineers vehicles to plow through the roadblocks for a relief column on the ground. Screw all the trundling around looking for a gap in the roadblocks, they needed to be able to just pound through. There were any number of tactical errors made in the operation, but none of that diminishes the heroism demonstrated by Gordon and Shughart or any other members of Task Force Ranger.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 1:53:21 PM EDT
We can thank Mr. Les Aspin for turning down requests for some M1A1's,Bradleys and other overwelming forms of firepower. I thought it was amusing when old Les Aspin kicked the bucket, friggen bastard!!!! Most soldiers I knew thought the same!
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 3:43:22 PM EDT
And to think that the term "hero" is used to describe both of these two guys...as well as Jessica Lynch. She's a lovely girl, a patriot and deserving of praise for serving....but to lump her in the hero catagory with Shughart and Gordon is unconscionable.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 3:53:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By eodtech2000: We can thank Mr. Les Aspin for turning down requests for some M1A1's,Bradleys and other overwelming forms of firepower. I thought it was amusing when old Les Aspin kicked the bucket, friggen bastard!!!! Most soldiers I knew thought the same!
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Don't forget AC-130 Spectre gunships!!! It would have been a lot less bloody for us had we been allowed to use one.... Speaking of this topic, my mom has a friend that was in Mogadishu when this all went down. He is one of the characters in the Book/Video, but his real name is not used for obvious reasons. Just my added .02. 03Mav
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 4:37:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 03Mav:
Originally Posted By eodtech2000: We can thank Mr. Les Aspin for turning down requests for some M1A1's,Bradleys and other overwelming forms of firepower. I thought it was amusing when old Les Aspin kicked the bucket, friggen bastard!!!! Most soldiers I knew thought the same!
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Don't forget AC-130 Spectre gunships!!! It would have been a lot less bloody for us had we been allowed to use one.... 03Mav
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I had the AC-130's in mind but couldn't remember clearly enough if they were still in theater or had been removed at the time!
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:01:36 PM EDT
Supposedly, Shughart's father gave Klinton a dressing down at the awards cermony telling him he wasn't a fit CINC. I'm betting it took a large degree of self control to not throttle the $#@%!&*. Eddie
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:17:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By eodtech2000: We can thank Mr. Les Aspin for turning down requests for some M1A1's,Bradleys and other overwelming forms of firepower. I thought it was amusing when old Les Aspin kicked the bucket, friggen bastard!!!! Most soldiers I knew thought the same!
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whos aspin? clinton friend?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:26:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 5:34:33 PM EDT by llanero]
Originally Posted By Mak762:
Originally Posted By eodtech2000: We can thank Mr. Les Aspin for turning down requests for some M1A1's,Bradleys and other overwelming forms of firepower. I thought it was amusing when old Les Aspin kicked the bucket, friggen bastard!!!! Most soldiers I knew thought the same!
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whos aspin? clinton friend?
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Slick Willie's Sec'y of Defense. The man who, like it or not, brought you a reduced-strength military. The man who, like it or not, brought you gays in the military. Well, what do ya expect from a man who, like it or not, learned the ropes under that idiot (God rest his soul) Robert McNamara?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:52:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2003 6:17:20 PM EDT by AvengeR15]
In reference to the M1A1/Spectre gunship availablity in Somalia in 1993, Mark Bowden addressed this issue in the afterword of his book Blackhawk Down. I don't remember it verbatim or anything, but based on his research, he didn't believe that either one of those would have been tremendously effective during the Battle of the Black Sea, and would not have arrived on site much faster than the international rescue convoy. Someone who owns a copy should look this up, and shed a little more light on the subject.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 8:58:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AvengeR15: In reference to the M1A1/Spectre gunship availablity in Somalia in 1993, Mark Bowden addressed this issue in the afterword of his book Blackhawk Down. I don't remember it verbatim or anything, but based on his research, he didn't believe that either one of those would have been tremendously effective during the Battle of the Black Sea, and would not have arrived on sight much faster than the international rescue convoy. Someone who owns a copy should look this up, and provide a little more light on the subject.
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Now Mike Durant in his book repeatedly said that they requested and should have had tanks and AC130 gunships.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:44:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:58:26 PM EDT
one thing i cant seem to understand is the miniguns. I assume that either they were taken out in the crash or with the chopper down and out the electrical supply for firing was nil. I remember in the the movie though one of the miniguns is still in one piece and the sniper keeps fring away right beside it without a single glance in its direction. of course the movie doesnt completely paralell the real deal i guess.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 10:01:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 10:03:24 PM EDT
Man, you're quick TBK1.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 10:10:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: This is not a thread for fun and games. I deleted a post, and a quote of it. Troll this thread at your peril. [:(!]
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Interesting...Are you selective on what threads are fun and games? I've had threads that were dead serious, but people still ripped on them. Where were you to preserve the sanctity of my posts? I just find it strange that a book that's been out for four years and a movie that has been out for over two years, still have people asking a question that is at the heart of the medium. As such, I made fun of it.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 10:19:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By WolfAR15: one thing i cant seem to understand is the miniguns. I assume that either they were taken out in the crash or with the chopper down and out the electrical supply for firing was nil. I remember in the the movie though one of the miniguns is still in one piece and the sniper keeps fring away right beside it without a single glance in its direction. of course the movie doesnt completely paralell the real deal i guess.
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It's my understanding that the minigun doesnt operate if the rotor isnt moving, something about battery charging or something like that.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 10:52:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 44Punk:
Originally Posted By WolfAR15: one thing i cant seem to understand is the miniguns. I assume that either they were taken out in the crash or with the chopper down and out the electrical supply for firing was nil. I remember in the the movie though one of the miniguns is still in one piece and the sniper keeps fring away right beside it without a single glance in its direction. of course the movie doesnt completely paralell the real deal i guess.
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It's my understanding that the minigun doesnt operate if the rotor isnt moving, something about battery charging or something like that.
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The miniguns are electrically powered by the engines, so once the bird was down the guns were out of action. I've heard that Mike Dillon was working on a minigun with a self contained power cell, or at least an emergency power supply, specifically because of what happened in Mog.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 3:03:29 AM EDT
I don't remember it verbatim or anything, but based on his research, he didn't believe that either one of those would have been tremendously effective during the Battle of the Black Sea, and would not have arrived on sight much faster than the international rescue convoy.
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Spectre was requested (and denied) during the planning stages. They would have been on sight and had a definite impact on the outcome. I can't speak about the tanks. Eddie
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 3:44:12 AM EDT
The Spectre would've made a heck of a difference, as would Bradleys and Abrams. Some say the streets were too narrow but remember the UN relief column...it was led by tanks. If we had Bradleys and Abrams under our own command ON STANDBY we would have only lost a small handful of men instead of the 18. God provide mercy on the souls of Shughart and Gordon.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 6:54:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By John91498:
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: This is not a thread for fun and games. I deleted a post, and a quote of it. Troll this thread at your peril. [:(!]
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Interesting...Are you selective on what threads are fun and games? I've had threads that were dead serious, but people still ripped on them. Where were you to preserve the sanctity of my posts? I just find it strange that a book that's been out for four years and a movie that has been out for over two years, still have people asking a question that is at the heart of the medium. As such, I made fun of it.
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I missed the deleted post, so I have no idea what was said. But from Mak762's two main questions, who were the men awarded the MOH and who was Les Aspin, I'm presuming he's a kid. High School or maybe even Jr.High/Middle school. He was likely too young to remember what happened in Somalia and was asking here trying to further his knowledge. Beekeeper will generally put up with a good amount of crap and is one of arfcom's best mods. Whatever was said really hit a sore spot with him and it would really be best to heed his advice. Dang it eodtech2000, I got all misty eyed seeing that pic. Thanks man. Saved it and printed it out to slip inside my copy of [i]Blackhawk Down.[/i] These two men are 100% American Hero's. [list]salute [USA] [/list] "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 7:03:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Gunbert: I've heard that Mike Dillon was working on a minigun with a self contained power cell, or at least an emergency power supply, specifically because of what happened in Mog.
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That happened [b]over 10 years ago[/b] and he STILL hasn't come out with it? I think it's probably safe to assume that any such project (if it existed) has probably been scrapped now.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 7:25:49 AM EDT
They were selfless heros. Period. They gave their all for the unknown at their own peril. At the opposite end of the spectrum is Aspen & Klinton, who should still be brought up on charges of reckless endangerment imho.
Originally Posted By jtb33: That happened [b]over 10 years ago[/b] and he STILL hasn't come out with it? I think it's probably safe to assume that any such project (if it existed) has probably been scrapped now.
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[url]http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Machine-Guns/GE_XM214_Minigun.htm[/url] 3rd paragraph
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 8:00:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Fruit_of_the_Looms:
Originally Posted By John91498:
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: This is not a thread for fun and games. I deleted a post, and a quote of it. Troll this thread at your peril. [:(!]
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Interesting...Are you selective on what threads are fun and games? I've had threads that were dead serious, but people still ripped on them. Where were you to preserve the sanctity of my posts? I just find it strange that a book that's been out for four years and a movie that has been out for over two years, still have people asking a question that is at the heart of the medium. As such, I made fun of it.
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I missed the deleted post, so I have no idea what was said. But from Mak762's two main questions, who were the men awarded the MOH and who was Les Aspin, I'm presuming he's a kid. High School or maybe even Jr.High/Middle school. He was likely too young to remember what happened in Somalia and was asking here trying to further his knowledge. Beekeeper will generally put up with a good amount of crap and is one of arfcom's best mods. Whatever was said really hit a sore spot with him and it would really be best to heed his advice. Dang it eodtech2000, I got all misty eyed seeing that pic. Thanks man. Saved it and printed it out to slip inside my copy of [i]Blackhawk Down.[/i] These two men are 100% American Hero's. [list]salute [USA] [/list] "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13
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When I see their pictures I am mad, sad, and proud all at the same time!!!
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 8:09:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By eodtech2000: When I see their pictures I am mad, sad, and proud all at the same time!!!
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Ditto. May Bill Clinton and Les Aspin die in a foreign country, with angry indigenous mobs firing at them. May their bodies get torn apart and dragged through the streets. May our dead heroes rest in peace knowing justice was served.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 8:13:26 AM EDT
If only we had MORE Shugharts and Gordons. [usa]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 8:26:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
Originally Posted By eodtech2000: When I see their pictures I am mad, sad, and proud all at the same time!!!
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Ditto. May Bill Clinton and Les Aspin die in a foreign country, with angry indigenous mobs firing at them. May their bodies get torn apart and dragged through the streets. May our dead heroes rest in peace knowing justice was served.
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Don't have to worry about Les Aspin, he EXPIRED about 9 months after Somalia!!! [beer]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:08:39 AM EDT
Gunships where taken out of the theatre because one was destroyed when its 105 was fired and the round went off in the gun blowing half the plane off. I dont remember if any of the crew survived. I dont think they did.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:26:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M4: And to think that the term "hero" is used to describe both of these two guys...as well as Jessica Lynch. She's a lovely girl, a patriot and deserving of praise for serving....but to lump her in the hero catagory with Shughart and Gordon is unconscionable.
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[b]AMEN.[/b]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:40:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Mak762: not to monday morning quarterback but couldn't the blackhawks mow down the crowds of somalias??
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What, and risk the political wrath of Klinton and the rest of the "APC's send the wrong message" crowd? No, facing the Somali hoards naked and empty-handed is preferable... [v]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 1:40:56 PM EDT
Gunships where taken out of the theatre because one was destroyed when its 105 was fired and the round went off in the gun blowing half the plane off. I dont remember if any of the crew survived. I dont think they did.
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I don't remember the numbers anymore, but some of the crew survived including a friend who injured his back, as I recall. Eddie
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