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Posted: 12/10/2003 11:57:56 AM EDT
I've been having these feelings lately... call it intuition... that soon we will have to do what we all prepare for but truly dread most. These feelings have been growing stronger over the last year and I don't know if they have gotten stronger the past week due to me starting "Unintended Consequeces" (I'm over half way through in 3 days of reading... too many interruptions), but they are very strong now. Now, with the recent SCOTUS ruling, and other instances of blatant disregard for our freedoms... my intuition (as often has been the case) seems to be well founded. I see there being one more big event in this country that will start it all.

The fuse has already been lit...
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 11:59:47 AM EDT
We won't see any armed confrontation with the government.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:01:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: We won't see any armed confrontation with the government.
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I'm glad you think so.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:03:30 PM EDT
Fuse has been lit for years. It's just running faster now. I too am in turmoil right now, trying to come to grips with a world that isn't the same one that existed when I went to sleep last night. Lots of thoughts, emotions. Some inkling of plans and ideas, but nothing solid yet. Nothing will change this course until enough of the "common folk" are disturbed by it. Problem is .gov is all about doing everything it can to pacify and keep the sheep asleep. So far they're doing one hell of a job.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:03:32 PM EDT
They're panic attacks, call your doctor for a prescription, then you can be like the rest of us sheep.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:03:39 PM EDT
Yeah, I'm worried.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:05:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: We won't see any armed confrontation with the government.
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Agreed
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:07:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cypher214:
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: We won't see any armed confrontation with the government.
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I'm glad you think so.
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You forgot to ask me why I think so [;)] We won't see armed confrontation because the SHTF will be an economic or infrastructure collapse, that takes down the government with it. There will be no armed uprising. There will be no revolution. There will be only collapse, and then rebuilding. Any use of weaponry will be in this context, and probably incidental. Are we in a position to take control, when it is time to rebuild?
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:08:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: We won't see any armed confrontation with the government.
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Agreed
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Do you two mean that to say that if/when there is some sort of response from "the people" that the government will fold without threatening us with force? I see that as likely seeing as American gun-owners, if determined enough, could amass an incredible army.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:11:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Originally Posted By Cypher214:
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: We won't see any armed confrontation with the government.
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I'm glad you think so.
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You forgot to ask me why I think so [;)] We won't see armed confrontation because the SHTF will be an economic or infrastructure collapse, that takes down the government with it. There will be no armed uprising. There will be no revolution. There will be only collapse, and then rebuilding. Any use of weaponry will be in this context, and probably incidental. Are we in a position to take control, when it is time to rebuild?
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What if an armed uprising or revolution occured before the proverbial SHTF? Meaning, citizens finally got fed up with the bullshit from our government and stood up to them. That is more along the lines of what I was talking about... not a post-disaster SHTF, martial-law scenario.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:14:23 PM EDT
Let's face it, we're all just a buncha blowhards. 99.9% of us would not endanger our children and wives/husbands to uphold the fierce yet empty rhetoric we spew everyday. And if you say you will, you're full of crap. Besides, there is absolutely no way an armed conflict would end with a victory for the people. The police, BATF, FBI, US Marshals, et al, are way too armed and well trained. Just ask David Koresh about their tactics. What freaks me out though, is that I share this forum with many members of law enforcement that would be fighting against an uprising by the people. Get over it.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:17:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cypher214: Do you two mean that to say that if/when there is some sort of response from "the people" that the government will fold without threatening us with force? I see that as likely seeing as American gun-owners, if determined enough, could amass an incredible army.
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I mean that as long as the government exists in the same kind of system that we have today (i.e. not some huge SHTF or TEOTWAWKI situation), any widespread "armed uprising" will simply not happen. The key to the success of anything is ORGANIZATION - and it doesn't matter how many gun owners there are (and keep in mind, the vast majority are NOT prepared to take to the streets with an AR or AK, but just want to keep their dusty revolver or deer rifle), they will not be able to organize any kind of an armed revolt. Any large scale attempt to do so will IMMEDIATELY be detected by FBI monitoring of internet, communication etc and ring-leaders will very quickly be rounded up under Rico Act and Patriot Act provisions. The really cool thing about the "War on Terror" is that someone can snap their fingers, and presto, no lawyer or due process for you! Any small scale or localized attempt to do so will be smacked down with a venegeance! Damage control through the media can ALWAYS be done later (hint keywords, "arsenal", "anti-american", "terror cells" - and other things that frighten Joe Sixpack and Jill Soccermom and send them scurrying for the government to protect them). Either way, I JUST don't see it happening on any scale to be anything other than an interesting story on the news. And it certainly will not interrupt Monday Night Football or Saturday Night Live.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:19:11 PM EDT
parinoia will destroy ya....
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:19:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cypher214: American gun-owners, if determined enough, could amass an incredible army.
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true.. but not as big as the U.S. Military we do not have bombs, planes, tanks, etc. The statement above about the government collapsing along with the country... not necessarily. The .gov will go to Britain and others for aid while we make do with what we got Gun owners could easily take the sheeple, but the .mil is a different story. "MOAB"
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:19:57 PM EDT
time to looosen your tinfiol again...
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:22:20 PM EDT
I'm begining to think that earthquake in Virginia yesterday was the founding fathers rolling over in their graves as they got the word of what was going to happen today...
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:22:49 PM EDT
No, I don't feel anything but congested right now.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:27:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cypher214:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: We won't see any armed confrontation with the government.
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Agreed
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Do you two mean that to say that if/when there is some sort of response from "the people" that the government will fold without threatening us with force? I see that as likely seeing as American gun-owners, if determined enough, could amass an incredible army.
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I mean, and Prof also, that when the SHTF, the government will be next to powerless. If the lights get turned off, what will the government do? What can they do? They depend on machinery to do their job as much as the rest of society does. What would have happened if people in New England has decided to turn from a crowd into a mob into a riot into an uprising, during the blackout? The government would have been next to powerless to do anything about it for hours. Then any National Guard deployment would be seriously hampered by the lack of electricity. No Traffic Lights, at least. Try GETTING to the scene. Anybody who sees the freeway at rushhour after a major storm comes through town, and sees every manner of emergency vehical stuck in traffic, unable to reach the emergency they are responding to, will question what the weaknesses of our government is. If the lights go out, how many resources will they government devote to blasting away gun owners? What kind of resources will they pull away from trying to restore power, checking buildings, directing traffic, working traffic accidents, responding to reports of looting, trying not to get shot by trigger happy nuts who think its time to overthrow the government, diverting resources from outside to stabilize the local economy, responding to the inevitable overhyped and hysterical reports of a bio attack, or reports of an imminent nuclear detonation, and finding enough gasoline to fuel the fleet of emergency and utility vehicals, as well as food to feed the workers and finding relief for the people who have been working 36 hours straight trying to fix the big fat foulup? Any armed contact will be incidental, and not a result of the government coming and looking for a fight.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:31:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tivoli410:
Originally Posted By Cypher214: American gun-owners, if determined enough, could amass an incredible army.
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true.. but not as big as the U.S. Military we do not have bombs, planes, tanks, etc. The statement above about the government collapsing along with the country... not necessarily. The .gov will go to Britain and others for aid while we make do with what we got Gun owners could easily take the sheeple, but the .mil is a different story. "MOAB"
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who says the entire .mil population would follow suite? I know too many GI's that would go awol if they were ordered to attack civilians...esp. civilians that merely wanted to preserve the constitution. Jesus Christ...our standing army is not one of drones. I doubt there will be any support by the Sheeple for the military using F-16's...even on "gun wackos" -HS
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:32:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:37:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/10/2003 12:49:02 PM EDT by A-nus]
If every gun owner in America didn't go to work for 1 month, see how much attention that would get. I guarantee it would accomplish much more than and fire fight. Look how good Israel’s "modern army" does against some determined/passionate rock chuckers. Huge mechanized army's do better against huge mechanized army's, not indigenous guerrillas. Americans tend to have long fuses but when they go they go big. ps I feel it too.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:38:43 PM EDT
[size=6]WOLVERINES !!![/size=6] [size=1]..sorry[/size=1] [BD]
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:45:37 PM EDT
I feel giddy right now!
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:47:52 PM EDT
any wonder how we will tell the bad .gov from the non-bad .gov... or will any and every .gov building/employee be a target ? the later will only result in the public turning you in . and you going out in a blaze of glory .. < thats not a good thing> we seem to always talk about what "needs" to be done.. but no one ever goes about says "how" it is to be done..
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:51:46 PM EDT
That's because it's a stupid thing to discuss in a public forum. Something about conspiring to something-or-other, I forget. Anyhow, that's a thread-killer for me.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:54:25 PM EDT
The Supreme Court just validated a law that makes the dissemination of political speech a crime. What do you think?
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:58:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By A-nus: If every gun owner in America didn't go to work for 1 month, see how much attention that would get. I guarantee it would accomplish much more than and fire fight. Look how good Israel’s "modern army" does against some determined/passionate rock chuckers. Huge mechanized army's do better against huge mechanized army's, not indigenous guerrillas.
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i agree with your first part, its really a good idea the Israeli comparison though is flawed b/c the Israelis fight with incredible restraint, like we are using in Iraq, a mech division 'let off its chain' would demolish a whole city rather quickly
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 1:00:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof: The key to the success of anything is ORGANIZATION - and it doesn't matter how many gun owners there are (and keep in mind, the vast majority are NOT prepared to take to the streets with an AR or AK, but just want to keep their dusty revolver or deer rifle), they will not be able to organize any kind of an armed revolt.
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This is by far the most determining factor in the outcome of a SHTF scenario. I mean, look at us. Look at that other thread bashing Bush. We can't even get on the same page in deciding who should be President.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 1:00:45 PM EDT
thats kinda my point... thats why nothing will happen ..
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 1:01:54 PM EDT
I have not noticed a disturbance inthe force. I have seen my freedoms taken away one by one though. Good times, good times.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 1:47:23 PM EDT
It is time to turn to the libertarian party. -HS
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 2:01:21 PM EDT
Since the Repubs sold their souls and passed that whopping Medicaire entitlement pgm, I've had some ominous feelings myself. The collapse will be economic in nature. Our tax burden will inch up and up and up over the next 20-40 years, especially as the baby-boomers retire and start cashing those SS checks. When it reaches a critical mass, enough conservatives get elected to try and fix it. And then it really hits the fan. Cutting entitlements sweeps a bunch of Democrats into office, and then things go downhill quickly. Best be ready before that happens. I really wish I could be more optimistic.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 3:31:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cypher214: What if an armed uprising or revolution occured before the proverbial SHTF? Meaning, citizens finally got fed up with the bullshit from our government and stood up to them. That is more along the lines of what I was talking about... not a post-disaster SHTF, martial-law scenario.
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It isn't going to happen that way. People simply aren't going to grab grandpappy's shotgun when times are good. Bullshit is bullshit, and it walks. However, money, and by extension, food on the table and running water and lights on, talks. People are motivated [i]most[/i] by hunger and pain. There is no way a non-SHTF uprising will take place.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 7:39:09 PM EDT
[b]Doublefeed[/b] has it. America loves the status quo, even as it changes daily. Declining morals and an inability to think coherently compound the problem. It's the old boil-the-frog bit. Strip away our civil rights one at a time, telling us you are doing it for our benefit, and we will smile and say "Thank you". Do it all at once and we might not like it. Yeah, I feel it too.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 7:44:26 PM EDT
It's the Quickening.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 7:45:01 PM EDT
Well Im ready for something, anything that results in a true conflict I can be in. I hate my job and everything else in life, I want for all to end. I want to go take down some of my enemies, I dont care if I die I really would not be that care if I died now. I have nothing going for me, and really nothing to lose.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 7:48:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Taxman: Well Im ready for something, anything that results in a true conflict I can be in. I hate my job and everything else in life, I want for all to end. I want to go take down some of my enemies, I dont care if I die I really would not be that care if I died now. I have nothing going for me, and really nothing to lose.
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Henry? Henry Bowman? Is that you?
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 8:46:53 PM EDT
Don't see it happening either. Incrementalism, "bread and circuses" and all that... Could we take the .gov? Of course we could. Just requires proper strategy and tactics, not to mention good propaganda. Gotta convince the sheep that we could and would win. However, part of the problem is what we could expect from our enemies if there were civil conflict here. The resulting power struggles all over the globe would destabilize the world's economy and geopolitical structure. If and when civil conflict erupts here, WWIII is almost a foregone conclusion. Think about that for a minute... Anyhow, it would take some huge events to trigger anything like this and I just don't see that happening. On the other hand, I see society becoming increasingly polarized. Substantially so. Something will have to occur to pull us together or there will be serious social upheaval--but not necessarilly armed conflict. Interesting that 9/11 did little to bring us together. Perhaps briefly but we are far more polarized now then we were prior to that. To a large extent we can thank politicians as many would sell this country out for a nickel to hang onto whatever power they have and it is in their own self-interest that they keep our society polarized. Better for us to fight each other at home from their point of view. Plenty of domestic enemies these days. Maybe I seem pessimistic but that is how I see it.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 8:54:05 PM EDT
Something's [i]got[/i] to happen. What that will be, I don't know, but this shit has got to stop.
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