Go back and read the rule. In a lot of key areas, they barely bothered to phone it in.

I agree.

They can put anything on paper if they're forced to. And I don't think trump forced them for any tactical chess reason.

But does that mean it will stand? Is the real question.

Indeed, it is.

He absolutely is. What I was getting at is that the majority of his calls today were people pissed about the wall. Adding in bumpstocks most definitely would not have helped.

He was right about one thing. Only Trump can separate himself from his voters and it doesn't appear he needs any assistance in that department.

What if you put a bump stock on a registered machinegun lower?

Do you think Trump talked to the DOJ before doing this? I wonder. I can't wait to hear what the courts say..

No different than making a DIAS and putting it into your registered lower...

The DIAS is, itself, a machine gun. No?

Well said...

maga....

Attached File

Seems in the gun world alot of companies use Civi sales to start their business then once they get those fat GOV/LE contracts they don't really care what happens to the rest of us. Being around the industry a long time watched many companies start small and treat customers right. They then get nice fat contracts and couldn't be bothered with the civ side or will go as far as to not sell them certain products or come out in support of anti gun policies for the unwashed masses since it wont affect their contracts.

Seen several companies let stuff be taken away in ban states without a peep then if it affects the LE contract side suddenly get active and say THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS. But were silent when it only affects the common folk.

So two registered devices make one functional machine gun in that example.

There is is no way to register a bump stock so I would guess still considered illegal?

Which is why he folded on shutting down the government to get the full $5B he said he needed for the wall while agreeing to send $11B to Central America and Mexico!

that's why we should never elect a crazy idiot to be president, that's more important than politics and party lines

It would make little machine gun babies.

Or it would be like putting a suppressor on an SBR

That is until they fix this failed coathanger abortion of gun control

But does he know he's spearheading the effort, as you say? I have to assume he does because he's not naive or stupid. That he would create an opening for antis just boggles the mind.

But he was never a friend to gun owners, so it's almost predictable that he would sacrifice them early on if he saw a need to.

criminal justice reform! now make a law turning law abiding citizens into criminals for ownings a peice of plastic!

Yup.

Everyone can complain about Trump, yet our own industry is BARELY on our side.  I wish all the people that just broken record about "fuck trump and fuck this and that" would put half as much effort into starting to try to get the industry to actually you know... do what they claim.

I've never seen the NSSF do anything, it's always the NRA this, the NRA that, and yet the NSSF is the supposed face of a 51 billion dollar industry? That's Soros fighting levels of cash...

He was always an asshole.

Trump didn’t tak to DOJ or didn’t listen to anyone in the ATF.....and that’s his downfall

He is a blistering arrogant know it all who won’t take advice....and he has fucked is all

Ok...who else is fighting like him for a wall?

Same question. Maybe I'll get an answer.

FBHO embarrassed FDJT at some dinner and FDJT was old money where as FBHO was new money.

When new money steps on old moneys toes that can’t go unchecked.

FDJT gonna step on the serf trash now.

We the serf trash.

Serf trash run the show though, if we didn’t the corksoakers wouldn’t have to lie all the time.

Serf gonna step on dicks soon.

Deep down I knew Trump would do this if he were persuaded to do it... I held out hope that Don Jr and Jared Kushner would dissuade him if given a chance...

D.C. October 1997.  I was there.  Let's do it again.

Cruz was pushing for a border wall in 2012 while Trump was still hiring illegals to work at Mar-A-Lago.

And how exactly do you think "any AR15 function with the disconnector removed"?

It certainly doesnt make it full auto

Point proven.

He lost the race. He was beat.

Funny you should ask that....

We will soon find out.

I'll take crazy over evil.

I don't have to like it.

Has NOLO weighed in?

You aren’t seriously suggesting that the 2016 election was a plain-jane party-line election, are you?

Are you kidding?

Hes the one that pushed the whole thing through

So ghey and

I'm not sure how this can hold up in court.  If it gets shot down it could be YUGE!

HE IS DONE! PUT A FORK IN HIM.

That reply doesn't even make any sense, on any level.

Besides, no one has forgotten you're just here to troll.

Trump is a vindictive prick. It'll be up to McConnell alone to help the American gun owners if that happens, because the House will come up with something worse.

Cruz ran for president and was milquetoast on the wall along the border.

He lost. No one has been more vocal in support of a wall except for Trump.

It was his autobiography the whole time!

Attached File

Talk is cheap.

Actions, like sending $11 billion dollars to Mexico and Central America in aid while you agree to not shut down the government for a mere promises of wall funds from Democrats, speak louder than words.

People are starting to see Trump for the self aggrandizing and self promoting windbag he is, as is evidenced by the callers to Rush today.

Wave your pom poms, real or not, somewhere else.

The very same countries that he said would lose funding over the caravan.

The best deals folks, the best,

Congress has never addressed bump stocks, and because of the that the ATF & DOJ will be given Chevron deference by the courts as this "precise" question has never been covered by any prior legislation. They'll argue Congress intended to ban devices (and label them as a machine gun) that can "automatically" fire rounds with one "manual" trigger pull until the ammunition supply runs out, but could not foresee all potential future devices, and thus delegated the interpretation of the statute to the ATF/DOJ.

They'll further argue that there is precedent for their "clarifying" action to ban bump stocks because they previously approved the Akins Accelerator, and after additional analysis decided/discovered it met the criteria of what constitutes a machine gun, and when the courts reviewed it they upheld the ATF's authority to do. Why, then, they'll argue, should the "additional analysis" that led to a determination that bump stocks are machine guns, not be covered under the already existing precedence that allowed the Akins Accelerator to be banned after "additional analysis?"

The only way this gets overturned in court is if SCOTUS is willing to overturn or sharply limit the holding in Chevron v. NRDC, or decides the Akins Accelerator ruling was flawed. That's a tough ask right now. Gorsuch would likely support Chevron going away or being sharply limited, and Kavanaugh might meet him halfway, but I think none of the Liberals would sign on, and I don't think Roberts would sign on for a ruling that totally upended Chevron. And, thread zero chance they'll decide the Akins Accelerator case was improperly decided.

But, yeah, there's a chance it could be overturned. And nolo and other attorneys are going to make good arguments for why this is unconstitutional and an abuse of power by the executive branch. The problem, however, is that this case doesn't stand alone and won't be decided in a vacuum. It will be decided in the context of the previous rulings that upheld the ban of the Akins Accelerator, and similarly, will involve the application of Chevron. I just don't see the facts or questions of law being favorable enough in any bump stock case to suddenly tackle Chevron or overturn the Akins case.

Chevron is probably going to get addressed soon enough, but it will likely be done during a case that has a MUCH broader regulatory impact than the ATF banning bump stocks. The government is going to shoot down any attempt at shoehorning in an attack on Chevron (i.e. arguing that a slippery slope exists because future admins might abuse the ATF''s regulatory process to create backdoor gun control) by pointing out how rarely the ATF has actually approved an item and then subsequently banned it.

Most of what I've said here is actually just a mild regurgitation of what the ATF/DOJ are already arguing in the final rule summary that was released today. I'm not just shooting from the hip - - the government has already laid out their legal thinking in some detail in the 157 page final rule summary. I have to hand it to the government - - even though I completely disagree with the constitutionality of their arguments - - they did an impressive job of polishing the turd and making any legal challenge to the rule quite difficult to win.

I hope I'm wrong. But, I think we have to be more realistic about the odds of a legal challenge succeeding - - they're not very good. Sure, the various lawsuits will prevent the implementation of the rule for some time, but outside of a novel argument (like Whitaker not having the legal authority to sign-off on the rule) that that becomes a broader issue due to multiple unrelated cases, I don't see much chance of this being defeated through the courts.

I sure as hell don't want to have to rely on the courts in the future with a Dem administration that will likely try to use the same regulatory authority to further restrict our 2nd amendment rights. At this point, we need a legislative solution to address that gaping hole, and we all know that's not going to happen either. We're fucked, and like it or not, Trump is the one who fucked us.

The problem with the logic that Trump set this up so it would be challenged in court is that it is an INSANE risk with absolutely NO BENEFIT attached. The chances the courts rule this is entirely unconstitutional is extremely low. The chance that they rubber-stamp it and subsequent Dem admins use it to demolish the remainder of our freedoms is unacceptably high.

What benefit would we get if the courts rejected the rule? That bump stocks remain legal. They would have remained legal if Trump never signed the Executive order telling DOJ/ATF to regulate bump stocks as machine guns, too. So what's the reward for the risk? Absolutely nothing. It's not a logical argument.

Patience. Soon.

I have spoken to Nolo.

Soon.

Hey, don't you know how triggered the libtards are right now that King Obama couldn't get ANY gun control passed but Trump whips out his pen and makes it happen? That's at least worth a vote for Trump in 2020, and two terms for Ivanka.

Besides, Trump is likely to have a killer anti-Comey and Mueller witchhunt tweet queued up for tomorrow. The REEEEEINNGG from the liberals that will induce is probably worth at least a new AWB.

Can't believe you're so tired of winning. We're just getting started!

Yep!  I might as well get the drill press setup....I mean...I'm a felon in possession of a machine gun now, right?

Of course not, you become a felon in 90 days.

Didn't matter with the Akins Accelerator. I don't understand why anyone thinks this one will go any differently.

Old ARFCOM thread

By Christian Wade of The Tampa Tribune

Published: December 18, 2007

Updated: 12/21/2007 04:06 pm

HUDSON - It was a simple idea, with big potential.

For years, marksmen have been using a technique called bump firing, shooting a semiautomatic rifle from the hip and allowing the weapon's recoil to pull the trigger.

With federal regulations keeping fully automatic weapons out of their hands, it was one of the few ways for firearm enthusiasts to enjoy the thrill of firing a machine gun.

If there was only a way to simulate that action, Bill Akins wondered, by creating a device that mechanized the recoil resistance to fire more rapid, and accurate, bursts of bullets.

Thus, the Akins Accelerator was born.

Akins, 54, is an expert marksman, ex-Marine, Elvis impersonator, seventh-generation Floridian and member of the National Rifle Association.

The Hudson man spent nearly a decade designing his Accelerator. He got a patent for his invention. Then he poured his life savings into marketing and producing it for distribution.

In the era of gun control laws, the device promised to revolutionize target shooting.

"They were selling like hotcakes," Akins said. "We were truly amazed by the response."

That was until the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives banned the Accelerator — two years after approving it.

To the ATF, the mechanism is an illegal converter kit that, if it fell into the wrong hands, could turn a run-of the-mill target rifle into a 700-round-per-minute killing machine.

Under the threat of imprisonment, officials ordered Akins to cease production, turn over the recoil springs from his existing stock and hand over his customer list.

And they didn't give him a dime in return.

More than five years later, Akins is teetering on the verge of bankruptcy.

His business partner has severed ties with his company. His investors have bailed. He has a warehouse in Oregon filled with more than $750,000 worth of useless stock. His reputation has been sullied by trade publications that once praised his invention.

He can't afford to hire a lawyer to challenge the ATF's ruling.

"They've destroyed my dream," Akins said. "Eleven years of my life, gone like that."

ATF officials stand behind their decision to outlaw the Akins Accelerator.

Drew Wade, an agency spokesman in Washington, said the ATF initially approved the device after test firing a prototype that Akins sent them in 2003.

Records indicate the prototype malfunctioned when it was tested and analyzed by a senior technician from the ATF's Firearms Technology Branch, according to Wade. But the agency approved the Accelerator anyway, saying in a letter that it did not meet the criteria for a machine gun and, as a concept, was allowable under federal law.

"FTB has concluded that your submitted device is not designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms officials wrote in a letter dated Aug. 23, 2005.

Wade said the agency reversed its position after someone who bought a fully functioning Accelerator requested another test firing.

And this time, he said, the mechanism worked.

Shortly after, federal regulators issued a new ruling: The Akins Accelerator is prohibited under the National Firearms Act and the Gun Control Act of 1968.

The stop-production order came in an ATF letter dated Nov. 22, 2006. Besides mailing in all recoil springs in stock and his customer list, the agency demanded Akins send an affidavit to each customer to account for all the devices sold. The recipients had to sign the document and return it to the ATF with the removed springs.

Wade wouldn't comment on Akins' contention that the ATF erred in its decision-making.
"That's the bottom line is that we believe it's a machine gun," the spokesman said. "End of story."

Akins questions that rationale.

He cites sections of the 1968 gun control act that define a machine gun as any "weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger."

"That's not what the Akins Accelerator does," he said. "It isn't a gun. It isn't a machine gun. It's an accessory; that's all it is. These guys are making it up as they go along."

Officials from the NRA and the National Sports Shooting Association, chief advocates for gun ownership in the country, weren't willing to comment on Akins' dilemma.

"We just don't know enough about it," said Ted Novin, the shooting association's president.
Before he patented the Accelerator, Akins did his homework.

He consulted lawyers such as James H. Jeffries III, who represented the NRA in high-profile lawsuits against the federal government, and sought a legal opinion from the ATF's Firearms Technology Branch.

They all felt that it was permissible under federal law.

"I wouldn't have invested millions of dollars on this if I knew it wasn't legal," Akins said.

Bringing his product to the marketplace, he established the Akins Group Inc., took out bank loans and a second mortgage on his home to fund production and began advertising in Shotgun News and other firearms publications.

The Accelerators, made of injection molded plastic, sold for about $1,000 apiece. They came in a small box with tools and instructions on how to attach the device to a semiautomatic rifle.

Similar to a Hellfire — which attaches to the trigger guard and already is on the market — the Accelerator was based on the practice of bump firing, or shooting a semiautomatic rifle from the hip and allowing the weapon's recoil to pull the trigger.

Once the trigger is pulled, the Accelerator's spring mechanism takes over and the trigger reciprocates at high speed, using recoil resistance to imitate automatic fire.

Most of the Accelerators were made for a Ruger 10/22, but Akins intended to make them for other rifles.

Overnight, the buzz about the Accelerator spread across the Internet.

"This thing is cool," one buyer gushed in a sporting chat room. "I can't believe it's legal."

But in 2006, several months after full production began, the ATF reversed its original ruling, outlawing the device and leaving Akins with a worthless product.

Akins wrote to the ATF, asking for clarification.

What followed was a flurry of vague and often contradictory correspondence that never fully explained why the federal regulators changed their position, Akins said.

"I wanted to explode," he recalled. "I started calling everyone I know, looking for help."

The NRA understood his dilemma, a spokesman told him, but didn't have a dog in the fight.

He turned to several pro-gun Republicans in Congress. Staff members promised someone would look into it.

"They said they couldn't do anything," Akins said. "Their hands are tied."

At the very least, he hoped to recover some of the money — his own and investors' — which he estimates at several million dollars.

"I don't understand how the federal government could come into my life like this, destroy my business and not offer compensation," Akins said. "We did everything by the books."

The man behind the Akins Accelerator has toured the country impersonating Elvis onstage. He and his wife, Jeannie, live in a modest home, on 2 acres along a winding road, in a rural corner of west Pasco County where you still can see the stars at night.

"I haven't made a lot of money over the years," Akins said. "But I've done alright for myself."

He considers himself a patriot and a rugged individualist, in the Jeffersonian tradition.

He is an unflinching defender of the Second Amendment and a 30-year member of the NRA who learned to appreciate guns as a kid hunting rabbits in rural Florida.

He joined the Marine Corps at the height of the Vietnam War.

He has voted Republican his entire life, twice for George W. Bush.

And he loves his country.

"I was brought up to believe in America, in the principles of right and wrong," Akins said. "My boyhood heroes were John Wayne and Roy Rogers. I was a child of the 1950s."

That's why his ongoing feud with the federal government and the lack of backup for his cause have shaken him to the core.

He cites the Ruby Ridge shootings and the Branch Davidian siege by ATF agents in Waco, Texas, as examples of how the government crushes dissent.

He wonders if they will come for him, too.

"They're a bunch of jack-booted thugs," he fumed. "I wouldn't put it past them."

He also said he feels betrayed by the pro-gun lobby.

A few weeks ago, the NRA sent him a membership renewal. Akins stared at the one-page letter for a while. He sighed.

"I couldn't bring myself to renew it," he said. "What's the point, right?"

English translation please?