Eric,

Jesus does baptize in the spirit-  He still does.

That happened the first time on the day of Penticost.

I am looking for the verse you are referencing when you said "If not, why are we specifically told that Jesus and His disciples went about preaching and baptizing before His Death on the Cross and the beginning of His Church?"

I don't know of a verse or verses that say those things like that.  The closest one to it is Luke 9:6 1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. 2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. 3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece. 4 And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart. 5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them. 6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

In fact, I can't find any verses that during His earthly ministry any of his disciples baptized anyone!  I may be wrong on that, correct me please!

You might use John 4:2
1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) 3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.

But John wrote the book of John in 85-90 AD could be referring to ministry of the disciples after the start of the church at Penticost.  I can't find a narrative of them baptizing anyone during Jesus earthly ministry.

patsue

Eric,
Going to have to step away from this for a little bit, got company for lunch and the afternoon.

But before I go, you referenced Jesus asking the Pharisees about John's baptism whether it was from heaven or or of men?  In Matthew 21:25

Jesus never gives the answer to the question.  Now I obviously would say that John's baptism was from heaven, that is for sure, but Jesus was backing the false leaders into a corner with that question.  Read the context and you will see that Jesus was refusing to answer thier question about by whose authority he did the things He did.

John's Baptism was a special one and only baptism for a specific time in Israel's History.  John and his ministry was a prophesied sign to the Jews that Messiah had come-  He was the prophesied "voice of one crying in the wilderness"  Johns baptism has no meaning or basis today.  It is over.

Christ's baptism, believers baptism, whatever is now in effect.

That is why Paul baptized those people in Acts again even though they had already been baptized by John the baptist.

patsue-  See you soon

Quoted: Yes, taking the verses quite literally is something that fundamentalists usually like to do!

You cut off my quote. How about the second part? It does not say that if we are not baptized we will be damned.

And if you don't find the necessary acts of repentence and confession in the Words of Jesus in Mark 16:15,16, it is because in order for the Church to Baptize you, you must have already repented and confessed!

Where did Jesus command this tidbit? He didn't. This has become church doctrine over the years. In fact, churches have built a heiarchy. The confessed Christian, the baptized Christian, and in the case of the Pentecostal and some Charismatic churches the Christian who has been baptized in the Holy Spirit as evidenced through speaking in tongues. (That starts a whole new argument.)

Jesus refused to say that if you aren't baptized that you are damned. He did say that if you don't believe then you are damned.

Baptism should happen where practicable, but no where does Jesus say that if you aren't baptized then you are damned to hell. So it isn't a prerequisite for heaven.

Quoted: let me start by saying, "I have been baptized by immersion in water.  I believe if you are a Christian you should be baptized by immersion in water." However, I do not believe that water baptism is essential for salvation. I do believe that spirit baptism is essential for salvation. Furthermore Romans 10:9-10 says, "That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.  For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:13 says, "For whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 1 Corinthians 12:13, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free-and have all been made to drink into one Spirit."

I've got to go with Glazer on this one...

Still, I'll sit here quietly and listen. You'd be amazed at the things you learn around here...

Mark 1.

NIV

4.And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

5.  The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him.  Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

6.  John wore clothing made of camel's hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey.

7. And this was his message:  "After me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie.

8.  I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.


It clearly seems to me that John was putting a much greater emphasis on being baptized by "The Holy Spirit" than by the water baptism.

ETH,

Your last post has come close to convincing me that you believe in salvation by works-  

Grace isn't grace if there is something I have to do to get it.  It is a paycheck.

Define confess as you see it
Define repent as you see it

Your Namaan example leads me to think that you do not understand what "rightly dividing" the Word of Truth is all about.  

We are supposed to "exegete" the truth out of scripture

You just "isogeted" your bias into a text that has nothing to do with baptism.  Jesus was not teaching about baptism.  He was dropping a bomb on the religious leaders.

Jesus’ point was that God bypassed all the widows and lepers in Israel during that time in Israel's history when unbelief was rampant, yet showed grace to two Gentiles. God’s concern for Gentiles and outcasts is one of the thematic threads that runs through Luke’s gospel.

What seems to have sparked the Nazarenes’ fury was Christ’s suggestion that divine grace might be withheld from them yet extended to Gentiles.

That is why those leaders wanted to kill him.

I do agree with you that in 2 Kings, the issue was about obedience and obeying the command to go to the specific river.  But that has nothing to do with baptism.

Talk about trying to force a doctrinal position into a text!  sheeesh!

And then top it all with the keep my commandments if you love me verses.  Those who are saved will keep his commandments, it isn't keeping the commandments that makes you saved.

How do you know that John 3:5 is talking about baptism? You don't really, you are assuming.  And like I said before in another post, Kai translated as "and" in the King James is debatable.  In that construction 108 other times in the New Testament it is translated "even".

And you say Jesus is issueing a command in that verse.  Where is the command?  He is mearly stating a reality.  the reality is that unless one is born of water (not clear if this is baptism- could be a symbol of the spirit) and (Even) the spirit, He won't enter the Kingdom of God.  That isn't a command to get baptized.

It is very dangerous to hinge a whole system of doctrine on a few verses that if interpreted wrongly, contradict the majority of verses that clearly state and teach a faith alone position.

A rule to follow is that if a verse on its own is unclear or could have several interpretations, interpret it according to those verses which there is no debate, where the meaning is clear.  

You also use the "if anyone comes to you with any other gospel"

Note the book where that was said.  Galatians.

Paul was correcting the teaching of false teachers who had come into the church telling them that salvation was grace plus works, namely circumcision.  He then goes on through the book to say what the gospel is.

Galatians 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Again, this is with all with respect


If you have formed a reply, you might read this post again as I have reedited it several times to clarify.

Eric,
Well, what can I say, except thanks for the sharpening session.  

Regarding Acts 2:38, I quote from Strong's Concordance regarding the Greek meaning of "eis" or translated for

“For” (as used in Acts 2:38 “for the forgiveness … ”) could have two meanings. If you saw a poster saying “Jesse James wanted for robbery”, “for” could mean Jesse is wanted so he can commit a robbery, or is wanted because he has committed a robbery. The later sense is the correct one. So too in this passage, the word “for” signifies an action in the past.
Strong, J. 1996. Enhanced Strong's Lexicon.


One thing is for sure, one of us is wrong, I guess we will have to let our Judge let the one who is wrong know.

You believe in a salvation in which belief is essential to give you your best chance at heaven.  Works must then come alongside belief to guarantee.  Which tells me that your salvation is still an unknown quantity.  You don't know for sure even as you sit at your computer whether you will ultimately get there.  You probably also believe that a believer can go from being a regenerated, made alive, new creature in Christ, back to a spiritualy dead, lost person again based upon whether those good works continue or not.

Correct me if I am wrong, I know I am assuming, but a works based salvation must always include the possibility that if good works earn it, then bad works will lose it.

I believe that faith in Christ is THE only way of salvation.

I believe that true salvation will always bear fruit produce good works in true believers, you believe that those good works are a means to the salvation itself.

thanks Eric

Just to throw in my $.02

Eric posted: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. I Corinthians 12:13"

Eric, you used this verse to justify water baptism as necessary for salvation.  However, the verse does not start referring to water baptism and end referring to Spirit baptism.  This whole verse refers to Spirit baptism.

Conversion is a spiritual thing, and when you come to saving faith in Jesus, the Holy Spirit enters your heart and you are "baptized into the body" of believers.

One more thing.  There isn't a single Christian here that would dare claim that salvation comes out of any work of man.  Salvation is a gift from God.  To look at any doctrine regarding salvation as requiring a "work" on our part is obviously in error.  

You posted:
"Believe that all you want, but it does not alter in any way the clear and precise words of Jesus regarding what one must do to inherit Eternal Life!"

We do not work our way to heaven by "doing" anything.  We believe, have faith, and are saved by grace.  Jesus paid it all, He does it all.  

That said....damning or not, avoiding water baptism is definitely not complying with scripture, regardless of God's reasoning for it.  What are the consequences of being disobedient?  One could construct an argument as follows:

Since scripture obviously commands us to be baptized, if you do not get baptized at the first opportunity, then you didn't truly believe, therefore you aren't truly saved.  And we all know that not saved = going to hell.  

In that sense, you could say that baptism is necessary for salvation.  But not as a means of "working" for our salvation.  Does that make sense?  

Quoted: 'Deathbed conversions'? All I know about Salvation is what Jesus,  the Author of our Salvation, said: Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.   He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that [bluebelieveth not shall be damned. Mark 16:15,16

its not "but he that believeth not AND is not baptised shall be damned" nor is it "But he that is not baptised shall be damned"

i disagree wholey that baptism is a prerequisite for being saved rather I believe that being saved is a prerequisite for getting baptised!

notice  what order the 2 come in in scripture?

Quoted: POst from patsue - Your last post has come close to convincing me that you believe in salvation by works- I know of no Christian Salvation that is not accompanied by outward works! Everything that Jesus said about Salvation and the Kingdom of God was intimately and directly related to works. Works alone will not obtain salvation for you. Faith alone will not obtain Salvation for you. Faith accompanied by works which exhibited a spirit of obedience to the Father is what Jesus was searching for in Israel. When He didn't find it, as had already been foretold, He established His Church. A Church that was to ACT on His Behalf in this present World! Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Matthew 5:13. Hmmm, we are the salt of the earth, yet if we do not act like salt by losing our savouring, we are 'good for nothing' and shall be thrown out and trampled upon. Every one of the Beatitudes is about someone who acts by doing something! If salvation is like a talent given by your Heavenly Father, which you dig a hole and place it into the ground, doing nothing with your talent on loan from God, then when the Master returns, even that talent shall be taken away from you! And what does Jesus call the servant who his the talent and did nothing with it? A wicked and slothful servant! An unprofitable servant! An unprofitable servant that was cast into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth! (from Matthew Chapter 25) Grace isn't grace if there is something I have to do to get it. It is a paycheck. If you're not working in His vineyards, I don't think you need worry about any paycheck! Or grace, for that matter. We don't earn it, but we must be qualified to receive it! And we must continue to be qualified to receive it all the days of our lives. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:20 Those are the Words of Christ, my brother, and not merely the words of some theologian. And, in His very last discourse on His Church that He had with his disciples before His Death, this is what He told them: If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:21 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. John 14:23 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. John 14:24 What do we gather from these commandments? That if you don't keep His commandments of His Words, you simply do not love Jesus. Simple as that! Define confess as you see it Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 10:32 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: Luke 12:8 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9,10 Very simply, the Good Confession is the public statement that you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God. A some point in your life, preferably before your baptism, you must make this declaration. And, as far as I can tell, you must continue making this Confession all the days of your life if you desire to enter into Heaven? If that's a 'work' as y'all define works, then Confession is one 'work' that it takes to get into Heaven. But confession ain't enough! 'Every tongue' shall one day confess Jesus, but every tongue that does will not be saved! Even the demons confess Jesus to be the Son of God: And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? Matthew 8:29 Define repent as you see it Simply put it is the changing of your mind, and beginning anew in a different direction. And since it is a total changing of the mind, you would necessarily see outward signs of this inner change. If there was no outward manifestation of that inward change, I would simply say there has been no true repentence. When the Pharisees and Sadducees came to see John the Baptist to be baptized by him, he replied to them: O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?   Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: Matthew 3:7,8 'Fruits meet for repentence' simplt means that is there was really a repentence, there would be fruit that resulted from it. Your Namaan example leads me to think that you do not understand what "rightly dividing" the Word of Truth is all about Is that so? Good, let's see where your words about me lead you in making that statement. We are supposed to "exegete" the truth out of scripture You just "isogeted" your bias into a text that has nothing to do with baptism. Jesus was not teaching about baptism. He was dropping a bomb on the religious leaders. Well, 'exegeting' and 'isogeting' sound like some mighty big words for such a simple concept as this: Naaman obeyed God's word by immersing himself in the Jordan River seven times. We can obey God's word by immersing ourselves in water....once. But whether it's Naaman, or us, obedience to His word is an absolute requirement! And what was the background for both the Widow woman and Naaman in what Jesus said to the crowd at Nazareth? These two GENTILES obeyed God while the HOUSE OF ISRAEL didn't! They prospered while ISRAEL suffered because of their lack of obedience. How can you not see that obedience to God is greater than any other action that you can direct towards Him? - continued -

Eric im suprised that YOU have completely missed the point. It is not "by wprks" that people are saved. it is by faith and confession that people are saved and thus "the just shall live by faith" Once again you have it wrong. its not faith AND works that save. rather when someone is truely saved then they begin to bear the "fruit of spirit" the fruit of the spirit and the works thereof are what comes from them being saved children of God NOT what is required for them to be saved in the first place.

A sinner sins and does not care. they do not answer to any god at all. But we do. if we are truly saved then we do not refuse to practice sin because we are "afraid" of God but because we LOVE God and loveing God means keeping his commandments. Showing the fruit of the spirit and doing works for God are not a requirement for salvation its what comes NATURALLY as a result of salvation in Jesus Christ.

 

Quoted: So what are you saying Dzlbenz?  I take that is an accusation thrown my way.

I beg your pardon. The placement of my post immediately following one of yours was mere happenstance. My post, which pointed out that VICAP had attached the original author's name to the original post in this thread, was referring to a previous post today by VICAP in which he posted an article by the same author without credit. I found a remarkable bit of irony in the fact that in a thread about a theif, our fellow member once again steals the only thing a man really owns - his word.

We now return you to "ARFCOM Theology Saturday," already in progress.

Quoted: Quoted: Post from DK-Prof - Just to be a killjoy.. That's quite all right, I will be your huckleberry! - my impression is that the roman legal code (in rome or in occupied lands) did NOT provide for the crucifixion of a thief. At the time of the Emperors, it actually did. There were many crimes in Ancient Rome during the Empire that were capital offenses, some of which may surprise you. The death penalty was assigned for crimes of violence, incendiarism, poisoning and theft, for carrying weapons with criminal intent, possession, purchase or sale of poison. If a criminal was caught red-handed or confessed the deed, punishment was inflicted without trial. If he were a reputable citizen and claimed to be not guilty, trial was held before praetor; otherwise, in front of triumvir. An advisory commission in both instances was called consilium to determine the question of guilt. Crucifixion was not, however, a permissible punishment for Roman citizens of any rank! Now, in the provinces, the administration of the law was one of the prime roles of the governor and only he had the right to impose capital sentences. Justice was administered in two ways: The assize tour - the governor made an annual tour of designated towns. Local civic magistrates would deal with the administration of routine justice, could hear private cases (with the governor's permission) and could pass their own laws. Indeed the Governor had to be careful to take account of local laws and customs and adapt Roman practice accordingly. Conflicts between local and Roman Law were referred to the Emperor who often found in favour of local practice. With regard to the first point, the governor could condemn defendants on the spot (a procedure often used to clear out the jails) though he could institute a full-scale court hearing. He might take advice but ultimately the decision was his alone; there was no jury system - and he had widespread discretion over punishment. Roman citizens could of course appeal to Rome but non-citizens could not. As in Rome the governor would adapt the trial according to the social status of the litigants - indeed the cases of lower class people would probably not even be heard - and in the course of trials the governor was required to attach greater weight to the status and wealth of witnesses. Similarly low status defendants were dealt harsher punishments - crucifixion or being fed to the lions - higher status defendants were rarely executed. They were usually deported but local dignitaries could not be deported without the Emperor's approval. The cruelty of the public executions acted as a ritual demonstration of the power of the state and a deterrent to wrong doers. So, DK-Prof, if Pontius Pilate, as the governor of Syria and Palestine (Judea) was faced with two Jews who were charged with being thieves, he could do with them whatever he wished! And crucifixion was the usual method of capital punishment in the provinces! So it's possible that the "thief" is there as either a literary device to make the point better, or as a result of erroneous transcription or translation or something like that. Or, as is most likely the case, it is exactly what the two were found guilty of by Pilate! Call our next case, Bailiff! Eric The(RomanLawyer)Hun I could totally be wrong - and should really have phrased it as a question.  I thought I remembered either reading it or being told it by a friend of mine that was studying archaeology at Oxford university. I'll defer to your obvious expertise.

I'll have to disagree with Mr. Hun here, as dangerous as that may be around these parts.

The Greek word lestai that the King James Version translates "thieves" actually is better translated brigand or robber.  According to W.E. Vine Expository Dictionary, lestes means "a robber, brigand, one who plunders openly and by violence", in contrast to kleptes, "a thief".  The lestai were crucified by Rome as a threat to their rule, not because they were simple common criminals.  Crucifixion was a lesson that those who rebelled against Roman rule would pay.

Jesus used the word in the Garden of Gethsmane when he was arrested, asking, "Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest me as you would against a lestes?"  And the same word was used of Barabbas in John's Gospel, "Now Barabbas was lestes", and in Luke's Gospel, "He was one who had been thrown into prison for an insurrection made in the city, and for murder."  In the Jewish context, a brigand was one who sought to overthrow Roman rule, whether as an outlaw in the countryside or by leading a rebellion.

So Jesus was crucified that day by Pilate as one of three rebels against Rome.  Rome perceived him and the two men crucified with him as political threats.  Jesus claimed to be king, and thus the Romans crucified him to eliminate the threat he posed.

Dram here, back for the Lord's attack:

Ahh, faith alone banner wavers. The Scriptures are the WORD. The WORD is JESUS. The WORD was in existance before the world.

Joh:1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh:1:14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So lets have some WORD up in this here thread, eh? Read the following and be confounded at the TRUTH contained therein:


Jas:2:14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jas:2:17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas:2:18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas:2:20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas:2:22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas:2:24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jas:2:26: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So there we have it folks, gotta have them dirty ol' works to keep your faith alive. Hmmm... faith without works is dead. Imagine that, oh, wait. I dont have to imagine, its here in this book, this lovely little gem that your humble narrator has pinned ALL his faith and hopes and eternity on.

Faith is First, ALWAYS the FIRST!
Repentance follows hard behind if faith is sure!
Baptism is the final acceptance and bending of your will to Christ Jesus', just like General Naaman had to bend his will, to receive His gift of salvation, putting Him on, being buried in his likeness that you might rise into the newness of life!

Baptism following faith and repentance is Christs plan, not mine, rest assured I would NEVER have dreamed that up. But, then again, I am not the Immortal Son of Yahweh so that really does rule me out of the "planning stages" of anything.

Ro:6:2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Ro:6:3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Ro:6:4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Ro:6:5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Baptism is regeneration, renewal, new birth .... being born again of the water that we supply and the Spirit that Christ supplies.

So simple, yet there are those who deliberately refuse to heed Christs call.

Dram(the saddened) out!

Eric,

You completely destroyed the meaning of what Jesus said in Matthew 24:  

Your works based position is forcing you to reinterpret scripture.  Once again, you have pulled a passage clear out of its context and made it fit your works salvation scheme.

Matthew 24 and 25 is the Olivet Discourse where Jesus is answering the disciples 3 questions.  "When shall these things come to pass? What shall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the age?"

THe scripture you quoted is in the section where Jesus is telling the disciples who is going to get to enter the Millenial Kingdom when Christ comes back.

From Matthew Chapter 25:31-46

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Jesus is idenifying himself with the Jewish people here who will be under the awfullest persecution, holocaust they have ever experienced, and is saying that how He will determine who enters the kingdom is based upon how Jews are treated by people during the Tribulation period that he has up to that point been describing in some of the greatest detail in all of scripture.

Only Christians will be willing to pay the price by sheltering, clothing, feeding Jews during the Tribulation, and that is who will enter the Kingdom (millenial).

Good works follow salvation and this is proven during the tribulation because the Jews will find a safe place with true Christians who will risk all to protect Jews from the wrath of the anti Christ.  Sheep are those who take care of Jews, Goats are those who neglect them.

The only way to understand what is going on there is to read the whole discourse in its context and compare it with what is going on in Revelation 12, 17 as they almost perfectly parallel eachother.

This is not a passage that is teaching about how to be saved.

It is showing the results of salvation during an awful time in future world history right before the Lord returns.

Your last post to me (the lengthy one :) ) You never did answer about your position on whether a believer can go from being a child of God back to being lost again.

If you did, I lost it all in some of the large posts.

I think the position of the church of Christ denomination is that you can indeed lose your salvation.

If that is the case, then you really don't know if you will end up in heaven or not do you?


You also keep saying that John's baptism and Jesus' baptism are the same thing.  At least you use Jesus baptism by John as an example to us.  I have refered 2 times to Acts where those who have been baptized by John are baptized again because John's baptism was inferior to Jesus' baptism.  It had a purpose but after the Lord came, its purpose was over.  Jesus was not baptized for salvation but to identify himself with those he would later represent to the Father on the cross (my earlier post went through all this in more detail)

Chapter 19
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve.

These guys were disciples of John, and they had been baptized in the baptism of John.  

You refer to Ephesians 4:5 and I do believe that the baptism there mentioned is refering to believer's baptism by water.  There is only one believer’s public confession of faith in Jesus Christ and that is through believers baptism.

But the Bible also talks about the baptism of the Spirit right?  John the baptist talked about that in John 1

32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

I believe that baptism of the spirit is implied in Ephesians under "one faith"  Because when a person is saved, the spirit immidiately regenerates, seals, indwells the believer, and places them into the body of Christ.

I know you believe all that only happens at water baptism, but Ephesians chapter one and 2:8-9 won't support that.

And Eric, in answer to your question, my sins have all been remitted by "grace through faith, it was the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast"  Eph 2:8-9

Sole Fide!!!

Still enjoying the exchange a whole bunch
patsue

Eric posted:

Yes, but He died for Adoplh Hitler as much as for Mother Theresa, so how does He separate the goats from His lambs?

Eric, with all due respect, (and I really mean that], I firmly believe that Mother Theresa did wonderful works throughout her life, and Adolph Hitler did horrible works throughout his life.  That being said, if Mother Theresa did those works without being a Christian, those works would not do her one iota of good.
On the other hand, just as the thief on the cross, (getting back to the original topic ), was able to obtain eternal life (notice I said obtain not attain, I believe that Adolph Hitler had the ability to obtain eternal life just prior to pulling the plug on his own existence.  I have no doubt that had Hitler confessed his sins to the lord, and asked the lord for forgivness, he would have been a saved man.

Quoted: I believe that baptism of the spirit is implied in Ephesians under "one faith"  Because when a person is saved, the spirit immidiately regenerates, seals, indwells the believer, and places them into the body of Christ.

I agree.  To specifically address "losing ones salvation" I add

John 10:27-30
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
30 I and My Father are one."

Quoted: let me start by saying, "I have been baptized by immersion in water.  I believe if you are a Christian you should be baptized by immersion in water." However, I do not believe that water baptism is essential for salvation. I do believe that spirit baptism is essential for salvation. Furthermore Romans 10:9-10 says, "That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.  For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:13 says, "For whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 1 Corinthians 12:13, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free-and have all been made to drink into one Spirit."

I agree, if you have the Holy Spirit, you have salvation.

But Eric,
It says right there that Jesus didn't baptize but his disciples did.  So you can't call him Jesus the baptist ;)  And thier baptism was also a baptism of repentance like John the Baptist's was, it couldn't have been like believer's baptism in the church, because the disciples had no understanding that Jesus was going to die on the cross yet.  He gave them clues later on but at this point he was offering himself to Israel as King. As his teachings were rejected by Israel who was looking for a messiah to run Rome out of town, not one who said, "love your enemies" He began to teach the disciples who were confused about it to the very end that he would suffer and die in Jerusalem.

I don't think that verse is very good ammo for you.

patsue

Eric, and my other brothers, I don't believe in osas, you must do good and confess/repent of your sins on a daily or hourly basis.
But all a person need do to have the gift of Christs' Holy Spirit is to pray something like this:

Dear Lord Jesus,
I know that I am a sinner, but I am sorry for my sins, I believe that You died for me and rose again, and with all of my heart I turn from my sins and receive You as my Lord and Savior right now.  Thank you Lord for saving me!
Amen!

Quoted: Anyone who believes that 'Once Saved, Always Saved' has made a full circle in religious argument so that now Christianity becomes how the Pharisees understood their own religion to be! Once 'saved', you are free to do any evil, nasty, brutish, sinful thing that your heart desires, knowing that 'no man can take you from His Hand.' That would be correct.  But would God save someone who would do such things? That's right, no one else can take you from Jesus' hand. But you can! Not correct.  You are saying that God is limited in his ability to be a good shepherd.  That He can not watch over and guide His flock. So, was Judas Iscariot 'saved' all the way up until the very moment he decided to betray his Master? How could Judas have been saved when he betrayed Christ since the sacrifice had not yet been made...That is unless you believe in predestination?  Since you will ask Yes I believe in Predestination.  Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.  Jeremiah 1:4-5 Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Before I formed you in your mothers womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet the nations. Nope, but the answer is not that 'he was never saved at all', but that, until the very moment of your death, you are not saved! You are seeking salvation, you are tending His vineyard, you are doing His Will and walking in His Way, but until your life has ended, you are not saved. I disagree.  1 John 5:13 says, "These things I have written to you who believ in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. It is a race, as Paul put it, that we must run, and to anyone who finishes it, will be given a Heavenly crown. Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 2 Timothy 4:8 Tell me where you can find in the New Testament any statement that once you do all necessary to become a member of His Church, you will simply not be able to lose that membership. I cannot find it anywhere, but such an amazingly outlandish concept MUST be clearly taught by Jesus, right? You must not be looking.  I just gave it to you.  Here it is again. John 10:27-30 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one." Here's another 1 Peter 1:5 says, "who are kept by the power of God through gaith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. It is the 'leaven of the Pharisees', all over again, and as the Pharisee thought that he was going to be saved simply by being a Jew, those who believe that, notwithstanding any of their actions afterwards, once you are 'saved', you will always be saved, simply because at some past point in time, you thought or 'knew' you were saved. Strange, isn't it? I wonder if you asked St. Peter during that three day period in which the Saviour lay in the earth, if he thought he was 'saved', he would have said, 'Yes, even though I denied Him before men, and even though I cursed His Name, I am truly saved!' I agree Peter was saved even though He denied Him before men because God's grace is sufficient. The formula of 'once saved, always saved' presents as much a problem for the Church as 'infant baptism' does! I disagree.  "once saved always saved" presents no problem to the church unless it is a church whose salvation is based on works. Eric The(Fundamental)Hun

My words in Red.

Hello all present,

Hmmm... hey Eric, no one appears to like to address my posting from the book of James.

Somebody there in James is speaking of works... now why on earth would that be ? Hmmmmm....

Dram out

Eric,
Once again you have distorted scripture.  Where in the world does the scripture say that the leaven of the pharisees was that they believed in eternal security?  They were under the LAW remember?

The leaven of the pharisees was alot of things all summed up in the fact that they thought that thier outer rightiousness brought them favor with God!  They were legalistic hypocrites, preaching it but not practicing it in thier hearts!  Jesus was exposing thier legalism, and inviting them to a true relationship with GOd.  One of them He even told wasn't far from the Kingdom of God.

Eric, how can Romans 8:28-31 be true if a believer who is a new creature in Christ, sealed, indwelt, written in the lamb's book of life, "in CHirst", regenerated, a brother of Christ (according to Hebrews), a child of God, adopted...  And so on

Go from all that to being dead spiritually, empty, unregenerate, unadopted, unsealed, unindwelt, erased out of the lambs book of life, and so on.

Romans 8:28 and on (some of the greatest comforts for the believer in the New Testament)

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Looks to me like everyone that is justified ends up being glorified Eric,  Everyone who is predestine ends up being conformed to the image of Christ. I see that none get lost along the way.  The Greek is even more clear then the English translations.

The same justified get Glorified and so on.


That passage doesn't allow for a true possesor of salvation to be lost.

There are professors and there are possessors.  They say the same things, they may even do some of the same things.  There is wheat and there are tares.  They look alike and from the vantage point of us, we can't even tell the difference.  But Jesus, the Lord of the Harvest will seperate the wheat from the chaff.  The chaff He never knew, not even once.  

Possessors are wheat.  They were never wheat and then became chaff.  Chaff is chaff, it was never once wheat.

Your scheme requires a whole bunch of theological gymnasics.  

Those of you who believe you can lose your salvation, what happens according to John 14 the first few verses?  Jesus starts to build your home in heaven but never finishes it becuase you never made it?

You can't say you have eternal life ever if you take that position.  Because although you may currently possess it, you may not when you die.  

What is there, names being blotted out, added, blotted out, added through the course of a persons life as they get saved, lose it, and get saved again?

You go from being adopted to being an orphan to being adopted to being an orphan?  Doesn't sound like a very good Father to me.  My parents never kicked me out of the house for sinning.

I can't imagine being on a performance basis with God, good grief, my righteousness is just as much filthy rags as it was before I ever believed the gospel and was saved!

I continue to fall short of the mark, I mean Eric, do you still sin?  How much and how often till you lose it?

The best thing one could hope for would be to get saved and have a piano fall on thier head the next second.  That would be a sure way to get to heaven.

Patsue

Matthew 3:11:

"I [John the Baptist] indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry.  He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Jesus was baptized because He was THE priest.

Howdy, folks.

Four pages is kind of late to get in on this one.  All the "usual suspects" are in, so I thought I'd say a word, if I could.

Being a good old Southern Baptist boy, I know that I am saved by the works of Jesus, not any of mine.  After He saved me, I was baptised in obediance to His commandments.  I now do works in obediance to His instructions.

But just as I couldn't save myself, I can't "keep myself saved".  Only Jesus can do that.  I am confident in Him.

EricTheHun and I have had this debate before, a couple of times.  I respect Eric as my Christian Brother and look forward to seeing him in Glory.  As he and I have agreed before, since we have both accepted Jesus as our Savior, and both have been baptised by immersion, and both strive to do good works, the order of our belief may be different, but we both know that we (and our brother) are saved.

I hesitate to argue about issues like this because sometimes it can get ugly.  I am proud of all of you that this one has been civil.

There is nothing wrong with having disagreements about doctrine.  It is good for us to debate and "search the scriptures".

Some of these issues will only be answered at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.  I look forward to seeing you all there.

Thanks Painless, the dialogue has been good for me.  Always good to see how sharp your sword is.  And I respect Eric and all those the other side of the baptism issue and once saved always saved issue.

I to hope to see Eric in Heaven someday.  I just hope he is wrong about the once saved issue because if he is, all I can do is hope when I die I am saved at that moment  :)

patsue

I want to thank everyone for reminding me why I try to no longer debate religion. Because in the end it's almost pointless. You can present your position; you can argue it well. Only in very rare circumstances can you actually change someone's mind.

Continue clubbing each other with scripture.

I disagree with that at least for this go around, this particular thread has been good for me personally.  I know it is forcing me to examine what I believe and why I believe and in matters that are so important, I think that is good.

But it can get stinky when someone takes it personally, so it must be approached carefully.

When one sees the discussion all about the truth and not a personal attack, then it can be done.

For Christians, if we can't discuss and debate in a spirit of Love, then we should keep our mouths shut.

1 Cor 13

Quoted: I want to thank everyone for reminding me why I try to no longer debate religion. Because in the end it's almost pointless. You can present your position; you can argue it well. Only in very rare circumstances can you actually change someone's mind. Continue clubbing each other with scripture.

I disagree, this has been an OUTSTANDING thread!!

Patsue, do you have any formal training in theology??

To quote Wayne Watson -
"Nothing but the blood of Jesus"

I know of no Christian Salvation that is not accompanied by outward works!

Ah!  Accompanied by - by this do you mean to imply that they are a cause of salvation or an effect of salvation?

Ah, Dramborleg - thank you for putting the sequence of events into perspective - First comes faith (and how does that come - by the Word! - wait that's Jesus!) then comes works, of course, Baptism is one of those works.

Quoted: Howdy, folks. Four pages is kind of late to get in on this one.  All the "usual suspects" are in, so I thought I'd say a word, if I could. Being a good old Southern Baptist boy, I know that I am saved by the works of Jesus, not any of mine.  After He saved me, I was baptised in obediance to His commandments.  I now do works in obediance to His instructions. But just as I couldn't save myself, I can't "keep myself saved".  Only Jesus can do that.  I am confident in Him. EricTheHun and I have had this debate before, a couple of times.  I respect Eric as my Christian Brother and look forward to seeing him in Glory.  As he and I have agreed before, since we have both accepted Jesus as our Savior, and both have been baptised by immersion, and both strive to do good works, the order of our belief may be different, but we both know that we (and our brother) are saved. I hesitate to argue about issues like this because sometimes it can get ugly.  I am proud of all of you that this one has been civil. There is nothing wrong with having disagreements about doctrine.  It is good for us to debate and "search the scriptures". Some of these issues will only be answered at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.  I look forward to seeing you all there.

And, what a Day that will be old friend...

Rev 19;5 ¶ And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6  And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7  Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8  And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9  And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10  And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.




And, our Lord has room for us all...

John 14;1 ¶ Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2  In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 ¶ And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5  Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7  If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.





I'll bet the chow is good too!!!  

Quoted: until the very moment of your death, you are not saved!

I don't think I fully understood all of what you were saying when I rebutted earlier.  I think you mean that a person can't lose their  salvation because that person isen't saved until the very moment of their death.

Is this what you are saying?

I disagree, this has been an OUTSTANDING thread!! Patsue, do you have any formal training in theology??

Well, I am reluctant to answer this because I have so enjoyed being a part of this thread and I don't want to be "pegged".  What I mean is once people learn about you they can put you in a box.  I hate boxes.

I was raised first a Catholic, then saw my family split through a divorce.  My mother became a nothing and my dad converted to Mormonism and married a Morman gal.  Through the course of time God first reached my mom with the gospel in 1976, and she was born again.  The change in her life was like night and day, my stepfather soon followed her in salvation which saved thier failing marriage and led to him leaving alcoholism.  Then after 25 years of being a Mormon and deeply involved in temple work, my dad forsook that and I had the privilege of introducing him to Jesus Christ.

It has been a long, wonderful, road of grace upon grace upon grace.  And it was ALL due to Him.  I and my family had nothing and continue to have nothing to offer to earn His Grace.  Our lives are a testimony of His salvation and His power and our lives are simply the natural result of being changed from the inside out.  We are new creatures in Christ and the Old things passed away...

That is why works oriented systems of salvation really stick in my craw.  To think that I had anything to do with what God has done for me and mine since 1976.  He intervened and He saved because that is the power of the Gospel.  Someone simply told my mom the gospel.  And along with many other wonderful things, it is my privilege to have been given the gift and wonder of being a pastor the last 10 years.  I did have some formal training of course, but quite frankly, I think that may have not been all that good.  My knowledge of the wonder of His Word barely scratches the surface and is an ongoing journey.  Thankfully we have the Holy Spirit who guides us into the truth.  

patsue

Quoted: Dram here, back for the Lord's attack: Ahh, faith alone banner wavers. The Scriptures are the WORD. The WORD is JESUS. The WORD was in existance before the world. Joh:1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh:1:14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. So lets have some WORD up in this here thread, eh? Read the following and be confounded at the TRUTH contained therein: Jas:2:14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Jas:2:17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Jas:2:18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Jas:2:20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Jas:2:22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Jas:2:24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Jas:2:26: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. So there we have it folks, gotta have them dirty ol' works to keep your faith alive. Hmmm... faith without works is dead. Imagine that, oh, wait. I dont have to imagine, its here in this book, this lovely little gem that your humble narrator has pinned ALL his faith and hopes and eternity on. Faith is First, ALWAYS the FIRST! Repentance follows hard behind if faith is sure! Baptism is the final acceptance and bending of your will to Christ Jesus', just like General Naaman had to bend his will, to receive His gift of salvation, putting Him on, being buried in his likeness that you might rise into the newness of life! Baptism following faith and repentance is Christs plan, not mine, rest assured I would NEVER have dreamed that up. But, then again, I am not the Immortal Son of Yahweh so that really does rule me out of the "planning stages" of anything. Ro:6:2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Ro:6:3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Ro:6:4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Ro:6:5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Baptism is regeneration, renewal, new birth .... being born again of the water that we supply and the Spirit that Christ supplies. So simple, yet there are those who deliberately refuse to heed Christs call. Dram(the saddened) out!

I didn't see this post so no, it isn't now being ignored.

James is a difficult book to harmonize with the rest of scripture with many people that is for sure.

The texts you quoted of course are part of a whole context of James which has to do with to whom it was written, the issues of the readers, and what is the problem that James is solving.

2:14 is critical to interpreting the rest of the verses.  James is setting up a hypothetical situation.  This is revealed by the phrase "though a man say he hath faith,"

That means that James is talking about someone who is a talker.  Anyone can say they are saved.  This guy is a professor, not a possessor and that is proved by the fact that truly his outer works are not in line with what he claims to be.  James is full of tests to test if your faith is a living faith or a dead faith.  I am going to lift a simple outline of James that I have used.

Introduction (1:1)
I. The Test of Perseverance in Suffering (1:2–12)
II. The Test of Blame in Temptation (1:13–18)
III. The Test of Response to the Word (1:19–27)
IV. The Test of Impartial Love (2:1–13)
V. The Test of Righteous Works (2:14–26)
VI. The Test of the Tongue (3:1–12)
VII. The Test of Humble Wisdom (3:13–18)
VIII. The Test of Worldly Indulgence (4:1–12)
IX. The Test of Dependence (4:13–17)
X. The Test of Patient Endurance (5:1–11)
XI. The Test of Truthfulness (5:12)
XII. The Test of Prayerfulness (5:13–18)
XIII. The Test of True Faith (5:19, 20)

Someone with true faith not a dead faith, someone who knows the Lord and has truly been transformed by Him from the inside out will pass these tests.  They are not a means of salvation, they are tests of and results of ones true salvation.  

So Dramborleg, do you pass the tests?

patsue