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Posted: 8/1/2018 6:37:18 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There have been Arfcommers saying to pull money out of the market and that it was due for a crash for at least 5 years now. So I guess the answer to your question is 5+ years ago. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So what is GD's thoughts on index funds right now? I have money in one and it's done OK but wondering if I should get out before it crashes next year or two. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 6:37:42 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
what value do you get paying someone to mirror the S&P 500? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Price is what you pay, value is what you get |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 6:37:49 PM EDT
[#3]
Nothing burger.
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Posted: 8/1/2018 6:41:58 PM EDT
[#4]
30 years ago some professor said investing in the index works better than attempting to be more savvy.
that works as long as central banks keep pushing entire markets ever higher with fake currency printing, which they have been able to do since then, every time the market attempts to correct. past performance is not indicative of future results. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 6:46:58 PM EDT
[#5]
Standing by for Vanguard to reciprocate.
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Posted: 8/1/2018 6:47:52 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Salad says? 
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Posted: 8/1/2018 6:51:10 PM EDT
[#7]
We've had Vanguard Accounts since the 50's and last week I moved all but one.
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Posted: 8/1/2018 6:51:54 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Verifying the correct ticker symbols, are these correct? FSTMX - ~18% per year FSIVX - A real stinker I haven’t bothered to look what indices these track, number of holdings, or what their cap gains distributions are. If you are with fidelity, or were looking for a new broker/looking to rollover a 401k etc, these could be good options. Otherwise vtsax/swtsx/fstvx or their etf equivalents are gonna perform the same long term. Ditto for the total international equivalents. I wonder if fidelity will see continued flight to core-fund only portfolios and how this will affect them long term? |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 6:52:01 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can promise you the market will crash in the future. V |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 6:53:12 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Standing by for Vanguard to reciprocate. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 6:55:08 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You always here the talking points but never any fundamental reason as to why or when. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 6:55:24 PM EDT
[#12]
I have a significant account with Fidelity and have a "personal" manager. I have been moving $ out of stock funds recently (the past year or so) and got a call from him. He was (gently) urging me to increase my market exposure, but I have other plans for the $ and told him so. It's not like I'm out of the market altogether, my exposure is roughly 40% right now.
I thought the call was a little unusual; they typically don't offer advice unless the client asks for it, which I almost never do. The call could have been completely coincidental, but perhaps it's possible that clients have been moving $ out of the market, and they would like to keep them in the market by offering no-fee index funds. Getting clients from other fund managers is another possibility as mentioned previously. He didn't mention these new funds; the call was about 2 weeks ago, maybe too early to discuss it openly. Like I said, maybe a coincidence, or maybe Fidelity sees an early trend they don't like and are trying to get ahead of it. If so, it could be a sign of a weakening market. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 6:58:23 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a significant account with Fidelity and have a "personal" manager. I have been moving $ out of stock funds recently (the past year or so) and got a call from him. He was (gently) urging me to increase my market exposure, but I have other plans for the $ and told him so. It's not like I'm out of the market altogether, my exposure is roughly 40% right now. I thought the call was a little unusual; they typically don't offer advice unless the client asks for it, which I almost never do. The call could have been completely coincidental, but perhaps it's possible that clients have been moving $ out of the market, and they would like to keep them in the market by offering no-fee index funds. Getting clients from other fund managers is another possibility as mentioned previously. He didn't mention these new funds; the call was about 2 weeks ago, maybe too early to discuss it openly. Like I said, maybe a coincidence, or maybe Fidelity sees an early trend they don't like and are trying to get ahead of it. If so, it could be a sign of a weakening market. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 7:03:29 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They probably have to get more exposure to non-core funds in order to make up for the fee reduction on these. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 7:06:37 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
30 years ago some professor said investing in the index works better than attempting to be more savvy. that works as long as central banks keep pushing entire markets ever higher with fake currency printing, which they have been able to do since then, every time the market attempts to correct. past performance is not indicative of future results. But seriously, it's more about human psychology. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 7:19:44 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It works really well in Japan. But seriously, it's more about human psychology. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
30 years ago some professor said investing in the index works better than attempting to be more savvy. that works as long as central banks keep pushing entire markets ever higher with fake currency printing, which they have been able to do since then, every time the market attempts to correct. past performance is not indicative of future results. But seriously, it's more about human psychology. Psychology? Only as much as people don't think fraud be like it is. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 7:27:24 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll stick with my old, water-stained mattress, thanks. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 7:43:01 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Folks who started up Fidelity had one goal. To be everything to every one no matter the costs. So yes. ps to ARFCOM GD: before you say that she looks like a librarian and has pointy elbows, you should note her net worth... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abigail_Johnson 
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Posted: 8/1/2018 7:47:57 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Japan does the same thing our central bank does. ECB too. It's all fraud that pushes them higher when QE is involved. Psychology? Only as much as people don't think fraud be like it is. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 7:50:47 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Luv me some Abagail! ps to ARFCOM GD: before you say that she looks like a librarian and has pointy elbows, you should note her net worth... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abigail_Johnson http://ziva.losdos.dyndns.org/public/misc/abagailjohnson.jpg 
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Posted: 8/1/2018 7:54:05 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Luv me some Abagail! ps to ARFCOM GD: before you say that she looks like a librarian and has pointy elbows, you should note her net worth... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abigail_Johnson http://ziva.losdos.dyndns.org/public/misc/abagailjohnson.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Luv me some Abagail! ps to ARFCOM GD: before you say that she looks like a librarian and has pointy elbows, you should note her net worth... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abigail_Johnson http://ziva.losdos.dyndns.org/public/misc/abagailjohnson.jpg Born: Abigail Pierrepont Johnson
December 19, 1961 (age 56) J. P. Morgan
Born: John Pierpont Morgan April 17, 1837 |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 8:10:50 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have you seen Japan's index? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Japan does the same thing our central bank does. ECB too. It's all fraud that pushes them higher when QE is involved. Psychology? Only as much as people don't think fraud be like it is. 
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-06-27/boj-now-top-10-shareholder-40-companies-owns-42-all-government-bonds The Japs are fucked 
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Posted: 8/1/2018 8:24:49 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Luv me some Abigail! ps to ARFCOM GD: before you say that she looks like a librarian and has pointy elbows, you should note her net worth... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abigail_Johnson http://ziva.losdos.dyndns.org/public/misc/abagailjohnson.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: The Folks who started up Fidelity had one goal. To be everything to every one no matter the costs. So yes. ps to ARFCOM GD: before you say that she looks like a librarian and has pointy elbows, you should note her net worth... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abigail_Johnson http://ziva.losdos.dyndns.org/public/misc/abagailjohnson.jpg |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 8:35:09 PM EDT
[#24]
This is much better than the gas station wars.
I heard about this in a conversation today with a friend but he did go into much detail. All fees take something from you so the less the better. 
Fuck a bunch of managed funds with high AUM along with loads and high ER's. It's a better era. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 9:13:42 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"Water"-stained. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 9:14:41 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why or when what? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: You always here the talking points but never any fundamental reason as to why or when. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 9:15:54 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a significant account with Fidelity and have a "personal" manager. I have been moving $ out of stock funds recently (the past year or so) and got a call from him. He was (gently) urging me to increase my market exposure, but I have other plans for the $ and told him so. It's not like I'm out of the market altogether, my exposure is roughly 40% right now. I thought the call was a little unusual; they typically don't offer advice unless the client asks for it, which I almost never do. The call could have been completely coincidental, but perhaps it's possible that clients have been moving $ out of the market, and they would like to keep them in the market by offering no-fee index funds. Getting clients from other fund managers is another possibility as mentioned previously. He didn't mention these new funds; the call was about 2 weeks ago, maybe too early to discuss it openly. Like I said, maybe a coincidence, or maybe Fidelity sees an early trend they don't like and are trying to get ahead of it. If so, it could be a sign of a weakening market. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 9:17:05 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Luv me some Abigail! ps to ARFCOM GD: before you say that she looks like a librarian and has pointy elbows, you should note her net worth... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abigail_Johnson http://ziva.losdos.dyndns.org/public/misc/abagailjohnson.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: The Folks who started up Fidelity had one goal. To be everything to every one no matter the costs. So yes. ps to ARFCOM GD: before you say that she looks like a librarian and has pointy elbows, you should note her net worth... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abigail_Johnson http://ziva.losdos.dyndns.org/public/misc/abagailjohnson.jpg |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 9:24:01 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why or when what? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: You always here the talking points but never any fundamental reason as to why or when. Is that applicable? |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 9:49:39 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The WalMart of investing. Largest employer in the world. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 9:50:26 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
“ don’t tell me what to buy, tell me when to buy “ Is that applicable? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: You always here the talking points but never any fundamental reason as to why or when. Is that applicable? "DOOM AND GLOOM (just signed a new fat client)" Take notes @midcap |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 9:53:30 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: fidelity doesn't model anything but modern portfolio theory. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 9:54:11 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Time to move some money. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 9:59:24 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Walmart is pretty successful. Largest employer in the world. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 10:07:07 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Walmart is pretty successful. Largest employer in the world. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: The WalMart of investing. Largest employer in the world. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 10:07:20 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nah, ABC! Always Be Closing! "DOOM AND GLOOM (just signed a new fat client)" Take notes @midcap Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: You always here the talking points but never any fundamental reason as to why or when. Is that applicable? "DOOM AND GLOOM (just signed a new fat client)" Take notes @midcap
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Posted: 8/1/2018 10:08:55 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IDGAS what they or anyone else models. I keep my own counsel, and use them for their low fee funds. I also have an account with Vanguard for the same reason. I guess you could say I'm "self-directed". I'm also low-cost to them - very little hand holding required. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: fidelity doesn't model anything but modern portfolio theory. That's not what they do. I was simply pointing that out. You have to be the most argumentative dude on this forum. I say the sky is blue you gonna try to tell me it's green. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 10:15:40 PM EDT
[#38]
I have been with Fidelity for almost forty years.
They were one of the main reasons that I was able to retire at age 56. I'm happy with them. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 10:17:14 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, not free stock trades. Yes, it may be worth having an account. Stock trades in most cases have a fee on fidelity. This is a mutual fund (not a stock, a bundle of stocks) you can transfer money in to (for free), and it has no upkeep charge (free). So in theory all your money stays your money. It is like having a savings account that is made up of stocks. It sounds better than having an old fashioned savings account in every way except it could lose value. I'll have to see if my 401k with them picks that up as an investment option. EDIT: I do think the management fee gets a bit too much attention. I have one account with a management fee of .45% that earned 16%, and I have another account that has a .015% management fee that earned 12%. If I had $100 in each, I'd have 116 and 112 before the fee, and 115.5 and 111.98 after the fee if I'm doing my math right here. The large issue is that nobody can tell you whether the fund with the higher fee will actually have better results or not: statistically it won't perform any better, so the numerically sensible choice is to pick the one with the lowest fee. But statistics are one of the three kinds of lies. . . Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Total noob here, would this just be free free stock trades? Is this worth opening an account? Stock trades in most cases have a fee on fidelity. This is a mutual fund (not a stock, a bundle of stocks) you can transfer money in to (for free), and it has no upkeep charge (free). So in theory all your money stays your money. It is like having a savings account that is made up of stocks. It sounds better than having an old fashioned savings account in every way except it could lose value. I'll have to see if my 401k with them picks that up as an investment option. EDIT: I do think the management fee gets a bit too much attention. I have one account with a management fee of .45% that earned 16%, and I have another account that has a .015% management fee that earned 12%. If I had $100 in each, I'd have 116 and 112 before the fee, and 115.5 and 111.98 after the fee if I'm doing my math right here. The large issue is that nobody can tell you whether the fund with the higher fee will actually have better results or not: statistically it won't perform any better, so the numerically sensible choice is to pick the one with the lowest fee. But statistics are one of the three kinds of lies. . . My only point is it's definitely worthwhile to research funds and stay on top of our fees, and make sure we understand exactly the costs, and tradeoffs, we're making with high-fee funds. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 10:41:17 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Folks who started up Fidelity had one goal. To be everything to every one no matter the costs. So yes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No fees? What are they trying to get out of this? Simply stealing clients away from other firms? So yes. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 10:45:04 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/01/fidelity-one-ups-vanguard-first-company-to-offer-no-fee-index-fund.html Fidelity one-ups Vanguard, Schwab and iShares, becoming first company to offer a no-fee index fund
Fidelity Investments is introducing two core equity index mutual funds covering the U.S. and international markets without any management fee. The fee war in the index fund and ETF space has been intense with leaders Vanguard Group, Schwab and BlackRock iShares engaged in an endless battle to be the low-fee leader. Experts have long expected that a major fund company would make the move soon to offer core index funds without any fee. Fidelity Investments just beat all of the low-fee index fund competition to a move long expected: It will be the first fund company to offer core index funds without any management fee.
On Wednesday, Fidelity announced the Fidelity Zero Total Market Index Fund and the Fidelity Zero International Index Fund will be available to investors on Friday. "Investors will pay a 0.00 percent fee, regardless of how much they invest in either fund, while gaining exposure to nearly the entire global stock market," Fidelity said in a release. The major index fund companies and discount brokers have been engaged in what investing experts call an "endless" fee war, with Vanguard Group, Charles Schwab and BlackRock's iShares ETF families constantly setting new bars for the lowest management fees on core ETFs. Lately, some of the biggest Wall Street banks have been encroaching on their turf as well, with Goldman Sachs and J. P. Morgan introducing ETFs with competitive expense ratios. This month, Vanguard is making a big move to relaunch its brokerage platform with trading of almost all ETFs in the industry for free. Many index fund and ETF experts have argued that it would ultimately make sense for fund managers to offer the "building blocks" — the core market exposures — for free and charge fees for less generic investment products as individuals and advisors fill out their portfolios. "Investors are increasingly fee-conscious and shifting toward passive products," said Todd Rosenbluth, the director of ETF and mutual fund research at CFRA. "While ETFs get much of the attention from a competitive perspective, demand for index mutual funds remains strong. Fidelity's move makes it easier and cheaper to invest in well-diversified mutual funds." |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 10:46:00 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you can share your opinion, how well do they do that? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No fees? What are they trying to get out of this? Simply stealing clients away from other firms? So yes. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 10:53:42 PM EDT
[#43]
OP's username is relevant
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Posted: 8/1/2018 10:55:10 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: what value do you get paying someone to mirror the S&P 500? |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 11:02:29 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You mentioned they called you because they saw somthing coming down. That's not what they do. I was simply pointing that out. You have to be the most argumentative dude on this forum. I say the sky is blue you gonna try to tell me it's green. Dude, reading is FUNdamental. If you want to participate in a board discussion, it's imperative to actually READ THE POSTS BEFORE COMMENTING. Jeez. It's not that difficult. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 11:03:29 PM EDT
[#46]
The announcement is creating quite a stir over on the bogleheads forum.
Both Vanguard and Fidelity generate additional income by "securities lending" (of the customers stocks held in the funds). Vanguard says they put all additional income from this activity (except for small expenses) back into the funds. Not sure about Fidelity treatment, or differences in risk level due to their own internal rules. Also, the two Fidelity zero funds will track their own index list of stocks, which have not been revealed yet. Waiting to see how this plays out. Im sure there will be some Vanguard response. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 11:06:49 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
WTF are you talking about? Did you bother to read my original post? Clearly not. I said that I had received a call lately from my Fidelity advisor. It was unusual, in that they rarely initiate calls with me. The advisor gently urged me to increase my market exposure, which was also unusual because he knows I am self-directed. I said clearly that it could have been coincidental, or that *maybe* they see some clients moving out of the market and that these new no-fee funds may be a way to entice people to stay invested in the market. Dude, reading is FUNdamental. If you want to participate in a board discussion, it's imperative to actually READ THE POSTS BEFORE COMMENTING. Jeez. It's not that difficult. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: You mentioned they called you because they saw somthing coming down. That's not what they do. I was simply pointing that out. You have to be the most argumentative dude on this forum. I say the sky is blue you gonna try to tell me it's green. Dude, reading is FUNdamental. If you want to participate in a board discussion, it's imperative to actually READ THE POSTS BEFORE COMMENTING. Jeez. It's not that difficult. this is your words maybe Fidelity sees an early trend they don't like and are trying to get ahead of it. If so, it could be a sign of a weakening market. He was on your ass because you filled out the risk tolerance questionnaire and your allocation isn't matching it right now. Then you went on about how every one sucks with modeling and you strategy is great. |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 11:08:02 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The announcement is creating quite a stir over on the bogleheads forum. Both Vanguard and Fidelity generate additional income by "securities lending" (of the customers stocks held in the funds). Vanguard says they put all additional income from this activity (except for small expenses) back into the funds. Not sure about Fidelity treatment, or differences in risk level due to their own internal rules. Also, the two Fidelity zero funds will track their own index list of stocks, which have not been revealed yet. Waiting to see how this plays out. Im sure there will be some Vanguard response.
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Posted: 8/1/2018 11:12:49 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd guess the fee probably doesn't get enough attention from most people. In your $100 example, sure, who cares? But what if you make that $100,000? Assuming your math is right you'd have a difference of $2500 in a single year, and hopefully over time we're all working with a lot bigger numbers than $100k. I get that you're talking managed funds and not this free S&P index deal, but those fees are still an enormous factor whichever way you go. Especially when you've got a 45 basis points fee against a 15 basis points fee and the two funds perform pretty much the same over a 30 year period as I think these things tend to do. I'm not at my work computer to run the math on an example but it's a huge difference over time when you're talking about hundreds of thousands or millions of invested dollars. Plus you've got to figure up the compounding value of the fee difference beginning year 1, in addition to the straight yearly difference, i.e. that $2500 difference in year 1 is actually worth over $10,000 in 30 years at 5% annual interest. That kind of difference gets you well into 6-figure territory over the course of a 30-40 year career. My only point is it's definitely worthwhile to research funds and stay on top of our fees, and make sure we understand exactly the costs, and tradeoffs, we're making with high-fee funds. It would be interesting if an advisor offered services based on a sliding scale. Zero ROI? No charge. Positive ROI? Advisor gets paid, bigly. Negative ROI? Advisor pays client the amount of loss. That would be an indicator of how confident the advisor is in his skills, would it not? |
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Posted: 8/1/2018 11:14:31 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I haven't done the math in this example either but you're spot-on. Fees are bigly important esp. over the long haul. Low fees are one of the main reasons that managed funds almost never beat comparable indexes. Those fund managers, and investment advisors generally, get paid handsomely regardless of whether the client makes $ or not. It would be interesting if an advisor offered services based on a sliding scale. Zero ROI? No charge. Positive ROI? Advisor gets paid, bigly. Negative ROI? Advisor pays client the amount of loss. That would be an indicator of how confident the advisor is in his skills, would it not? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'd guess the fee probably doesn't get enough attention from most people. In your $100 example, sure, who cares? But what if you make that $100,000? Assuming your math is right you'd have a difference of $2500 in a single year, and hopefully over time we're all working with a lot bigger numbers than $100k. I get that you're talking managed funds and not this free S&P index deal, but those fees are still an enormous factor whichever way you go. Especially when you've got a 45 basis points fee against a 15 basis points fee and the two funds perform pretty much the same over a 30 year period as I think these things tend to do. I'm not at my work computer to run the math on an example but it's a huge difference over time when you're talking about hundreds of thousands or millions of invested dollars. Plus you've got to figure up the compounding value of the fee difference beginning year 1, in addition to the straight yearly difference, i.e. that $2500 difference in year 1 is actually worth over $10,000 in 30 years at 5% annual interest. That kind of difference gets you well into 6-figure territory over the course of a 30-40 year career. My only point is it's definitely worthwhile to research funds and stay on top of our fees, and make sure we understand exactly the costs, and tradeoffs, we're making with high-fee funds. It would be interesting if an advisor offered services based on a sliding scale. Zero ROI? No charge. Positive ROI? Advisor gets paid, bigly. Negative ROI? Advisor pays client the amount of loss. That would be an indicator of how confident the advisor is in his skills, would it not? You can add value and still be negative. |
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