Lol @ the “top 20%”, incel nonsense...

First, the 'incel' label carries no weight with me.  I'm celibate right now by voluntary choice. 

Second, the % examples were for context.  The context being that people make different amounts of money and/or occupy different rungs of the corporate ladder.  Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, socioeconomic status matters in the dating world.  It may matter more for some women than others, but it is a common factor for a lot of them.

What you say has some truth, but the “top 20% get 80%” trope is utter hogwash.

I do agree that it oversimplifies and overgeneralizes real life dynamics.

FYI, the 80% thing came from a study of O.K. Cupid users.  The article generated so much flak it was deleted, rather than investigated further.

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And further investigation would have been good. The study was limited in scope and only really focused on one thing, yet has been used to draw all sorts of conclusions that are at best tangentially related and can hardly be reliably drawn from the data provided.

Seems like common sense that everyone wants to get the best piece of ass they can.

So a majority of people (of both sexes) chase a smaller minority of Tier 1 ass.

If you want peer reviewed blind taste tests, you'll find none. Plenty of evidence, anecdotal and otherwise to support this.

Sucks to be in the majority.

Its not a given, thats for sure.

Girls can hide a lot of shit online, so much that you are regretting even going as far as making a date

You do better seeing her away from the phony fotos

Network, make friends and you avoid rolling 7s

This thread...

Incels, come on guys.

Don’t act weird.

Take care of yourself and practice good hygiene.

Practice communication skills, attend toastmasters or something.

Solicit input from friends and family.

Realistically assess your attractivenes and understand where you might fit.

Go talk to people and interact without the priority being sex.

It’s a fairly well established phenomenon that a guy can occasionally punch above their weight class just by being there and acting like a human being.

Or just blame women for being female.

That’s because attractiveness is a scale measured on several axis, including physical, socioeconomic dAta points.

Attractive and successful females have lots to offer potential mates, and have a wide range of opportunities. Likewise with their male counterparts.

Everyone falls somewhere in the spectrum.

But with near 50/50 gender ratios the good news is that even for you fat depressing slobs their is an equally fat and depressing female out there. You just don’t want to accept that, nor do you want to change any of the data points.

You just want to bitch about the injustices of chad.

BURN THE HERETIC!

If you want to lose weight hook up with a Land Whale

Fat shame the shit out of her

If you are a fat fuck, you win

She will diet and lose weight and so will you

Some of those Land Whales give tremendous head

Do we now?

“Society”? “Society” doesn’t know if a woman is reproductively viable or not. The woman’s boss wants work out of her, and prefers lack of children. Her church wants churchy stuff from her, her friends want friendship and her man wants what a man wants that may or may not include children. Are fertility indicators sexy? Like boobs and lack of wrinkles? Sure. But it’s one hell of a stretch to say “society” values women for reproduction. Youth and vitality, sure, but not reproduction to such a dominating degree.

[DKProf] LOL! [/DKProf]

The choice is to fire live ammo or not, women are having children later and later, some put it off entirely.

I'll put it this way. If you're not pretty, you could like all the same shit as me and I won't want to date you. You're just another guy at this point. I'm looking for someone with a lot of the shared interests, goals, dreams, etc. that I want to FUCK and hang out with. Guys will judge based on looks first because it is similar to the height thing. If she doesn't meet my criteria of, "I could have sex with her", she is not getting much of a second chance. Now, if you get to know them through a non-dating stance first, something different might result, but more than likely, I'm not going to want to date someone I don't find at least alluring right off the bat. Its why you message the girls who are attractive and leave the ham-beasts to other guys. I'm not a model or anything, I am just able to be more selective in my pursuits given my career, assets, and "I'm not ugly" appearance.

Sometimes you need to be savage. If a woman told me that, and I was being conceding and that was a bridge I wasn't afraid to burn, I'd say, "Its OK, I was giving you a shot, but fitness/prettiness/personality etc matter to me, too. I was hoping I could overlook XYZ." My ex is following me on instagram, liking all the photos AND EVEN COMMENTING, but I ignore it. I am not following her profile. It is very strange indeed. Not sure what to make of it, really.

If you want to throw XYZ quality of theirs in their faces then just open by qualifying them that way.

Otherwise it comes across as trying to one up her rejection and it makes you look like an angry short guy. Next her ass and keep it movin.

As for your ex, she's testing the waters to see if you'll bite back or trying to muddy things with a potential current girl. Or both. Keep ignoring her.

She thinks you are a revolving door

Men are looking to marry a lover.

It seems to me that Naamah is talking about selecting a partner based only on looks, and you’re talking about making sure the partner has at least acceptable looks and then selecting her based on other stuff. That’s a completely different thing.

Naamah is talking about the extremes.  It's an unproductive approach similar to a man requiring you somehow explain or justify women who only use men for access to money.

sizzlin_bacon is presenting a more realistic, productive context representing the larger group on the margin instead of the extremes.

Common sense! OH NOES< RUN GD< RUN LIKE THE WIND!

On a side note, a lot of my recent red pill reading is focused on self improvement.

http://archive.puerarchy.com/Red%20Pill%20Theory/1400838002_26a8r8.html

Not guilty, but not so not guilty as to be worth all the bullshit and baggage.

She was or is being used as a clown car.

Quality goes even further down.

Except...i’m not talking about extremes. I’m talking about studies that show men don’t particularly care about career choices or education level, as have been mentioned here on Arf before. I’m talking about men who can’t name a single hobby their wife has, or lament the fact that she doesn’t have any. I’m talking about guys that regularly talk about how hot their woman is and then turn around and fuss about atrocious behavior, or excuse a woman’s atrocious behavior because she’s pretty.

Just observations made over time watching threads and members here, as well as seeing the behavior of guys around me IRL. Appearance before all else is a regular theme, and it’s not in any way limited to extremes. I understand that a level of physical attraction is important in a relationship. It’s just foolish to place it above all else, i. e. picking the hottest one of the pack regardless of all the other details. Maybe the one who’s a little more drab would be a better match, but the guy dismissed her because the hotter one who had little else going for her glances his way. They become “alpha widowers” of a sort, picking hot train wrecks over plainer, more stable women with staying power.

To a point.

Many men - here and elsewhere - will plainly state that they will overlook X Y and Z just because a woman is hot. That's very different than just having a minimum attractiveness requirement. The former is actually prioritizing looks, despite other faults. The latter viewpoint, meanwhile, isn't afraid to admit that looks certainly matter, but asserts there is simply a minimum requirement in that department, and the other qualities matter more once the initial barrier is met.

And of course, attractiveness is extremely subjective, and can be influenced by factors other than just pure looks (such as mannerism, voice, etc.).

ETA - Just as Naamah herself elaborates on above.

Self improvement should always be #1.

Too many guys think that getting girls will make them a better person. Not so.

But if you're the best person you can be, you get more of everything good in life.

The trouble is, being the best you is harder than getting girls.

Relying on others for happiness will also lead to nothing but misery.

Goes for both genders. The mask wears away after awhile.

This is very true, and I will continue to use my anecdotal experience from past relationships.

My most recent girlfriend was 5'4", 130# and successful in her career, we shared similar economic standings, and she had a very pretty face, nice ass, but small boobs (I'm a boob guy but finding ones to replace the ex before her is near impossible-34DDs). At first everything was great, but then little things popped up and they became bigger things, and eventually I was concerned if I was going to have sickly children, or ones with weakened bodies. I didn't want that risk, nor did I like how liberal she had been becoming, but kept hoping the relationship would right itself as I had put more effort back into it after a while. Needless to say, I never felt the chemistry between us again, and we broke up shortly after the 1 year mark.

Without chemistry, you're not going to have the glue that draws and binds the two together. They could check off many of the boxes on your list, but if they don't make your dick tingle, none of the other boxes matter.

I’m short,  ugly and fat. When she was single, my wife dated gym rats and tall dudes. I had impressive skills on a motorcycle, made good money, had bought my first house by 21. I think she realized fast that her “list” did not necessarily make you a winner.

Or maybe it was my penis

It's been said many times. Mens primary interest in women is sexual.
The other shared interests they may have is Icing on the cake for longer term relationships that help cement the interest in keeping the relationship an ongoing thing.

Also true if your single or married.

Yep

Just this last Monday I had a woman who was socializing with me drag up the fact that I have child support and alimony obligations.  It was our first time meeting and I had never even mentioned those topics.

I was introduced to another woman via phone call and inside of 6 minutes of meeting me she had already rapid fire grilled me about my employment (estimate my salary potential) how long I had been married (estimate duration of alimony), how many children I have and interrupted me to demand the age of the youngest (calculate duration of child support).  In fact, those questions were all asked within a two minute span.  When I say 'rapid fire' I'm not exaggerating.

These weren't extreme examples.  I've found them to be quite common occurrences, actually.

Now, if I were to make assumptions in a similar manner as you've just expressed, I would be judging women in general as being shallow gold diggers who only value men as biological ATM machines.  I would hurl that at you as an accusation and demand that you accept such judgment as a given.  I could site studies to back it up.

-or-

I could take a sensible approach to reconciling what I personally witnessed, have learned from studies, and have been told by women themselves.

At a core, instinctual level women generally seek a spouse that will be a responsible provider and protector (per those studies that you mentioned).  If a woman doesn't think a man will be responsible as a provider, she probably isn't going to be terribly interested in him as a potential spouse or as a potential father to her children.  OK, I get that.

Now, the mature part of me is going to assume that women aren't all shallow, binary-decision-making creatures who ONLY value men for their ability to provide cash or status.  Chances are that once that basic core requirement is met, all but the most shallow women will want to spend some time courting the man to see if he has other valued traits as part of a vetting process.  Oh, on occasion I will encounter or hear of truly shallow, manipulative, money-grubbing, or self-pimping women.  I just have to remind myself that some people really are shallow and they don't represent all women.

A sensible woman will likewise understand how this relates to men and their core instinctual process for vetting women as potential spouses.  Is there chemistry?  Do I find her hot?  If not, the man will probably move on.  If the answer is 'yes', then chances are that once that core requirement is met, all but the most shallow men will want to spend some time courting the woman to see if she has other valued traits as well as part of a vetting process....

Shane, I think you’re thinking i’m buying into the ‘All Men Are Like That’ attitude, and I assure you i’m not. I know they aren’t. It’s just a common attitude, and one to be wary of, and wary of falling into. I’m not saying anyone should fall on his sword and take up with someone he finds utterly unattractive. I’m simply saying that the “hotter is better regardless of anything else” attitude is common, is used to excuse or overlook a lot of problems, and can leave one with a pretty lousy individual.

Ceteris paribus of other attributes, a man will probably show interest in a prettier woman first.  Same as a woman showing interest in a taller, more wealthy man first, all else being equal.

Also, overlooking other important traits bites both shallow men and shallow women in the butt.  Shallow is as shallow does. [shrugs]

See? Ultimately, we agree.

Apropos of nothing else, how’s your dog?

Why is everyone trying to pare the entire emotional and socioeconomic wants and desires of each 3.5 trillion strong gender down to a couple of descriptive sentences on a gun forum?

In all things biology, there is a bell curve. Sometimes the curve isn’t easy to see or understand (likely because you haven’t entered the correct data or don’t understand the connections) but they are there.

There are outliers on both ends, and progressively units more the closer you get to the median. I could go into standard deviation and normal distributions, etc... but it boils down to this:

People are different. This transcends all of the arbitrary classifications and delineators we use to try to separate them.

The only person you can control is yourself. So do that, and try to find someone that fits what you are looking for. Hint:realistic expectations are important.

Very old and beginning to lose weight, but still fairly active and happy.  He was a little heavy to begin with.  He must be 12-13 years old now.

I barely ever see Tucker anymore.  Technically he belongs to my ex's family and she kept him in the divorce.

What does society mean? Why does anyone care about a woman's vigor beyond what it brings to society? Does anyone care about a mans vigor? If you're trying to separate sexuality and child bearing then you can mince words. But often times the two remain intertwined even though their interchangeability has weakened over time. Why has incest always been taboo? Is it still? Should it be re-evaluated in the context of sexuality =|= reproduction?

The most common icebreaker I've ever experienced on a first date is so what do you do? Is it sinister or just a safe first bet with which to establish rapport? I guess everyone will have to decide for themselves.

I don’t prescribe to any “red pill” extremism. I had friends in college that did, and they turned in to massive assholes, angry at the world and women and anyone more successful than themselves. Not all are like that, but it’s my experience that if once you get to that point it takes a lot of effort to normalize. Just like any other radical ideology.

Here’s the thing: self improvement goes hand in hand with self worth. Inflated and deflated senses of self worth will cause problems. That’s why it’s important to get honest feedback from family and friends. It seems like emotional intelligence is something to be ridiculed on this site, but so many issues like this could be rectified if people understood the why behind their actions and reactions.

Above all, take care of yourself, both emotionally and physically. It’s only then that you can expect to find and develop real, successful relationships with the opposite sex and that aren’t reliant on one partner being a crutch for the other, or a salve for previous or current wounds.

There are a lot of jaded men AND women on this site (it is the internet afterall). Lots of bruised egos, broken hearts, and vindictive assholes.

All lack real emotional intelligence. Or they’ve chosen to ignore it and have purposely allowed themselves to devolve into thisprimal ooze of hate and loathing that’s been vommited into this thread.

If she can deliver everything she demands, then her list is not unreasonable.  One way relationships don't work.  I suspect that is why she is a divorced mom looking for a man with impossible standards.

"ATM machine" is redundant.

Wonder how many people told her to never settle.. reach for what you want...

Not, look in the mirror before deciding on what you want.

She can find 2 out of 3 pretty easy. Going three for three is unlikely.