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a monument to the byzantine mess that is DoD procurement and contracts.
I've only seen the contract/money side of a small ( $12 mil) US Army program, and it was sickening.

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On a side note, there is a story that the Syrians already struck an Israeli F-35 with a S-200 missile.


Israel Is Hiding the Fact that Its State of the Art F-35 Warplane Was Hit by Syrian S-200 Missile – Reports

https://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-is-hiding-the-fact-that-its-state-of-the-art-f-35-warplane-was-hit-by-syrian-s-200-missile-reports/5613807

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They would have to be able to fly to get shot down. And they obviously can't fly.

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Saw one at the Chicago air show this summer. They're loud as hell and sounds like nothing else, which diminishes the stealth factor. It sounds like a cross between a passenger jet and a roaring waterfall. Cool for air shows, bad for sneaking up on the enemy.

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We dropped more ordnance in Vietnam than we did in World War II.

Don't tell me we don't need air power.

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A solution space?

Earned Value?

What kind of mushrooms do you have to consume to espouse that nonsense?

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Elbit Avionics.

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This is why we have to stop giving these constant fucking budget increases to the military.  

It's absolutely ridiculous how much we spend on defense.  There is so much wasted money that it's absolutely sickening.  

Slash their fucking budget in half right now, with another 20% cut every year until they can demonstrate that they can efficiently operate.  

It's just another issue the GOP is on the wrong side of.....

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A solution space?

Earned Value?

What kind of mushrooms do you have to consume to espouse that nonsense?

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You don't have to be a fighter pilot, or a pilot, or an infantry grunt to see the folly of these things. You only need common sense.

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Words mean things. Just because you don't know what they mean doesn't mean they don't mean things.

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I cant wait to see how they B-21 and Columbia Sub programs are going to transpire at this rate.

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Considering how the Virginia class is going, I would be optimistic on the latter.

B-21 will be a disgusting pile of putrid shit shoved down the taxpayers throat

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Considering how the Virginia class is going, I would be optimistic on the latter.

B-21 will be a disgusting pile of putrid shit shoved down the taxpayers throat

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We'll see.  Virginia basically took a lot of stuff developed for Seawolf and put it in a less capable good enough hull.

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Is the Army considering buying a new rifle again?

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Can they be sold to civilians as surplus?

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This is all a plan to leave us vulnerable about the same time China is ready to assume the stage in a few decades.

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I'm no expert but that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion,   and the experts are free to rip it apart if they wish.

To me the F-35 was designed to bow to the false god of radar stealth.  

I say false god because radar stealth has already been defeated, to some extent, without resorting to VERY high technology to do it.

Remember when an F-117 got shot down in Serbia?  They did that by networking their radar sites.  And that was back in 1999.

Radar stealth is a defeatable technology.    And as ways to overcome radar stealthing are continually developed and improved upon by our adversaries, at the same time ways to improve thermal detection systems are also under continual development.

You might be able to make the plane absorb nearly all radar signals hitting it but you can't hide the megajoules of heat coming out of the back end of it.  With the right detectors the plane shines like a star in the night sky.

The F-35's airframe is bulked up by necessity for the purpose of carrying weapons in internal storage,  becasue the weapons are not stealthy to radar.    Launch those weapons and the airframe stays the same size...bulked up.  

The bulkier airframe MUST be adding a drag and weight penalty.  Adding the supportive systems for storing and launching weapons from internal storage must also
add a drag, weight, and complexity penalty.

The stealth profiling of the aircraft's exterior surfaces MIGHT compromise aerodynamic efficiency.  Not sure about that but if optimized aerodynamic surfaces were also optimized stealth surfaces then all aircraft would be naturally stealthy, wouldn't they?

What we ended up with in the case of the F-35 is a plane meant to replace the F-16 which requires a much larger engine (43,000 pounds thrust) in order to
achieve the same range of speeds that the F-16 manages with considerably less power.   (27,000 pounds)

I realize the F-35 is a bigger plane, with a maximum weight of something in the 70,000 pound class, while the F-16 (latest model used by the USAF) has a MTOW
of 37,500 pounds.   But tlhe F-16 it has a ferry range of more than 2000 miles as compared to the F-35's ferry range of about 1350 miles.

Speed: F-35 listed as mach 1.6. (~1200 MPH),   F-16 listed as 1500 MPH (mach 2 at altitude)

All figures I quote are from the USAF's online fact sheets.


I just can't help but think that the F-35's design is compromised for the purpose of being stealthy when that stealth technology is heading toward obsolescence.  The days of radar stealth being important are most likely numbered,  and thermal detection systems are going to become the standard for finding enemy aircraft in flight.   So when the bulked-up draggy airframe fails to provide the benefits it was designed to,  with radar stealth no longer being effective,  then you're stuck with a big bulky bomb truck that's cranking out however much heat can be generated by an engine that puts out up to 43,000 pounds of thrust.

And the missiles and bombs that they so want to hide inside the stealthy fuselage?  Well, maybe they themselves could be made somewhat stealthy,  and besides, the moment you drop or launch them from EXTERNAL hardpoints,  all their weight and drag penalty suddenly goes away.    But the empty weapons bays in the F-35 are
just as bulky empty as they are loaded.

I know that the great advantage of the F-35 is its situational awareness package.   But it seems to me that the airframe is seriously compromised all for the benefit of radar stealth,  when radar stealth is on the path to obsolescence.

So, to our resident aviation experts,  please clear up any misconceptions or errors I've made and give me more reasons to believe that the F-35 doesn't have
the compromises I believe it does.   Tell me that it's more aerodynamically efficient, that it can haul more payload farther per ton of fuel, etc.

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The program to upgrade M4s to M4A1s was more than the cost of an F-35.  Replacing 500,000 M4s with M27s would run about $1.5B.

Aircraft procurement is about 5% of the DoD budget.

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I'd love to hear your scenario where buying new rifles would actually cost less than what the Army paid to upgrade 500,000 M4s to A1.  Based on current fly-away cost it would have to be about $188 per rifle.

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You're counting actually flying the planes in their cost?   indeed.

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How many of these things do we already have? 

How many are ready to fight a war if say Lil' Kim decides tomorrow that he's all done dicking around?

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That depends entirely on what you're doing with that hull.

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I have often agreed that the Air Force and the Marines fucked up by not procuring LAAR airframes.  That doesn't change that new fighters are needed for near-peer adversaries.

ETA:  Cost per hour is always kind of funny.  Which is why it's listed as costing over $200,000/hour for a VC-25 when no other 747-200 costs that much.

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I have often agreed that the Air Force and the Marines fucked up by not procuring LAAR airframes.  That doesn't change that new fighters are needed for near-peer adversaries.

ETA:  Cost per hour is always kind of funny.  Which is why it's listed as costing over $200,000/hour for a VC-25 when no other 747-200 costs that much.

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Fair point.

and unlike other "secret" units in the Navy. Submariners generally keep their mouths shut.

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I would argue that the Army is the service that fucked up by not procuring LAAR.  Marines have their aging Harriers and Hornets for dedicated support if they need fixed wing.   Army has the ATO.

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Army at least has the ability to fall on the Key West Agreement as the reason why they didn't push it organically.  The Marines chose to fly $15k/hr jets instead.

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How would you replace over 1,000 F-16s alone?