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Posted: 6/30/2017 4:57:58 PM EDT
Say you're Eugene Stoner in 1964.  Yet somehow, you know all of the cartridge developments that will take place in the next 50-odd years.  You are starting from scratch, with a blank sheet of paper.  So, what do you chamber this new, lightweight, plastic-and-aluminum assault rifle in?

Now, as all intelligent people of course agree, 5.56 NATO is totally inadequate ().  And yet 7.62 NATO, a clearly superior round, has that weight/bulk/recoil thing going on.

Keep in mind, since we are starting with a blank sheet of paper, we can bump the mag well out far enough to take a slightly longer cartridge.  Personally, I've always had kind of a soft spot for the .250 Savage, as it pretty well cuts the middle ground between 5.56 and 7.62.  Or, something in 6.5 mm, as there's alot of highly accurate rounds in this bore diameter?  Perhaps .243 Win, as that occupies much of the same middle ground as the Savage.

Or, would you stick with the 5.56, with the possible proviso of going for 1 in 7 way earlier?  Or one of the 5.56-based rounds, like the 6.8 SPC?  Or, you could even go the other way, say to the .221 Fireball?  You could carry even more, and have an even shorter mag well with that one!   Maybe even one of the .17 calibers?  Wind bucking would be a bitch, tho...   So what thinketh the hivemind?
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:01:27 PM EDT
[#1]
something in the 6mm family?
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:03:24 PM EDT
[#2]
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Quoted:
something in the 6mm family?
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First post nailed it. I was just thinking 6x45mm as I read the OP.
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:04:11 PM EDT
[#3]
6.5 Grendel.
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:04:58 PM EDT
[#4]
I would propose the 7mm Isolationist.
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:05:48 PM EDT
[#5]
Didn't stoner want something bigger than 5.56mm anyways?
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:06:44 PM EDT
[#6]
In before the 6.5 Grendel suggestion......Oh wait
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:07:16 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:
First post nailed it. I was just thinking 6x45mm as I read the OP.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
something in the 6mm family?
First post nailed it. I was just thinking 6x45mm as I read the OP.
Hmm, interdasting, I'd not heard of it.  Sounds good:

The advantage of the 6×45 mm over the .223 Remington is that it is capable of being loaded with heavier bullets with better ballistic coefficient ratings than its parent cartridge, the .223 Remington. This results in a flatter trajectory (with bullets of similar weight), less susceptibility to wind drift and better energy retention characteristics.
Wiki
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:07:33 PM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:
6.5 Grendel.
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Yup
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:08:43 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:
Didn't stoner want something bigger than 5.56mm anyways?
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I think it was originally supposed to be 7.62x51mm
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:10:17 PM EDT
[#10]
6.5 grendel
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:10:30 PM EDT
[#11]
300 WSSM
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:10:42 PM EDT
[#12]
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Quoted:
6.5 Grendel.
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I am sold on it.
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:11:09 PM EDT
[#13]
5.45x39
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:11:46 PM EDT
[#14]
I'd say 6.25 x 50mm or somthing
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:12:32 PM EDT
[#15]
338 LM
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:12:33 PM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:


I think it was originally supposed to be 7.62x51mm
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I was thinking it was something like a .260 or .280 or some shit.

But I maybe mixing my thoughts with the FAL as it was originally chambered in .280 British
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:14:40 PM EDT
[#17]
7.62 and take AK mags... I like the idea of harvesting loaded mags from our dead enemies
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:20:17 PM EDT
[#18]
6X47
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:20:56 PM EDT
[#19]
6mm savage. Boom.
 Small arms development stagnates for 100 years.
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:21:17 PM EDT
[#20]
6.5 or 6.8
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:26:15 PM EDT
[#21]
Considering Stoner did his AR15 development work in 59 and 60, 64 would be a bit late to the party...

If you're trying to make a case for caliber change upon/before adoption, that'd have been up to the ordnance board and not Stoner or Colt or Armalite.

You'd still have gotten 5.56 and the wrong powder out of those chuckleheads.
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:26:42 PM EDT
[#22]
556. Oh wait...
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:32:43 PM EDT
[#23]
220 Thunderbolt... with 77GR

6mm Hagar necked down to 22.  I have one in a 20 in barrel, 77's mag length at 3100 fps.
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:49:12 PM EDT
[#24]
I'd set the time machine for the mid-1950s first.

Then recommend the 5.45x39mm case or a 6.5 Grendel case, but with a 6x39 (5.45 case) or .257" projectile in the Grendel case.

Keep the 30rd magazine size/height without crunching the COL too much, so we could still carry plenty of mags, which the 5.45x39 case allows.  Grendel case increases the mag size a bit in the height dimension.

Use an 87gr bullet for the standard multipurpose rifle load, and a 105gr-123gr DM/Sniper load.

The 87gr would still have a secant ogive and a boattail, FMJ, so get the BC over .4 G1 on it.

The 105-123gr would be in the .5 to .590 G1 BC region at least.

For the .257 1117-123gr, it would be closer to .6 G1/.3 G7.

For the 6mm, it would be a 105-110gr with very high BC.
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:50:33 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'd set the time machine for the mid-1950s first.

Then recommend the 5.45x39mm case or a 6.5 Grendel case, but with a 6x39 (5.45 case) or .257" projectile in the Grendel case.

Keep the 30rd magazine size/height without crunching the COL too much, so we could still carry plenty of mags, which the 5.45x39 case allows.  Grendel case increases the mag size a bit in the height dimension.

Use an 87gr bullet for the standard multipurpose rifle load, and a 105gr-123gr DM/Sniper load.

The 87gr would still have a secant ogive and a boattail, FMJ, so get the BC over .4 G1 on it.

The 105-123gr would be in the .5 to .590 G1 BC region at least.

For the .257 1117-123gr, it would be closer to .6 G1/.3 G7.

For the 6mm, it would be a 105-110gr with very high BC.
View Quote
  Crap, here's someone who knows his ballistics!
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:53:58 PM EDT
[#26]
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Quoted:
6.5 Grendel.
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Came here to post tits.
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:55:47 PM EDT
[#27]
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:57:26 PM EDT
[#28]
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Quoted:
Came here to post tits.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
6.5 Grendel.
Came here to post tits.
Well?  Where are they?
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 5:58:24 PM EDT
[#29]
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Quoted:
556. Oh wait...
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Link Posted: 6/30/2017 6:00:32 PM EDT
[#30]
Fuck that i am buying IBM stock. And when i sell that, i am buying an NFL team.
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 6:02:13 PM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I would propose the 7mm Isolationist.
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7.31x38mm Dikpünch.
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 6:05:55 PM EDT
[#32]
Phased plasma in the 40 watt range.
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 6:07:45 PM EDT
[#33]
Do the same thing but increase dimensions just enough so that a 90 grain load can fit in the mag. Issue rifle with a 1/7 twist with Mk262 as main issue round and heavier rounds availible as dmr ammo.
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 6:14:33 PM EDT
[#34]
.25-08






Link Posted: 6/30/2017 6:16:41 PM EDT
[#35]
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Quoted:
And make the AR-16/M-16 a constant recoil system while you are at it.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd set the time machine for the mid-1950s first.

Then recommend the 5.45x39mm case or a 6.5 Grendel case, but with a 6x39 (5.45 case) or .257" projectile in the Grendel case.

Keep the 30rd magazine size/height without crunching the COL too much, so we could still carry plenty of mags, which the 5.45x39 case allows.  Grendel case increases the mag size a bit in the height dimension.

Use an 87gr bullet for the standard multipurpose rifle load, and a 105gr-123gr DM/Sniper load.

The 87gr would still have a secant ogive and a boattail, FMJ, so get the BC over .4 G1 on it.

The 105-123gr would be in the .5 to .590 G1 BC region at least.

For the .257 1117-123gr, it would be closer to .6 G1/.3 G7.

For the 6mm, it would be a 105-110gr with very high BC.
And make the AR-16/M-16 a constant recoil system while you are at it.
Yes.  Get rid of the buffer impact into the rear of the RET and let the system ride on spring rate like the Stg44.

That's a huge effect on hit probability and the overall design right there.

I would not increase the COL much though because AR15 mags are one of the easiest mags to carry when looking at having a compact basic load of 210rds or more.

If you make the magazine too wide and too long, your ability to carry a basic load of 210rds gets limited, especially on smaller soldiers or those of us who have to carry additional critical items on our fighting load (radios for key leaders).
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 6:20:33 PM EDT
[#36]
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Quoted:
Phased plasma in the 40 watt range.
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"Just what you see, pal"
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 6:27:56 PM EDT
[#37]
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Quoted:
7.62 and take AK mags... I like the idea of harvesting loaded mags from our dead enemies
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I'd rather not:  Project Eldest Son
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 6:34:33 PM EDT
[#38]
Bullet manufacturing method and ability in addition to powder development on par?
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 6:34:52 PM EDT
[#39]
I'd keep the caliber the same but make the magazine a little longer and use a heavier bullet.
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 6:35:00 PM EDT
[#40]
6.5 Grendel
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 6:38:28 PM EDT
[#41]
10mm explosive tip caseless

Link Posted: 6/30/2017 6:50:28 PM EDT
[#42]
1964 with intel from 2017?

Fuck that, I'm gonna start my stamp collection with M16A1's, and probably pick up a few Series '70s and Pythons while I'm at it.
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 6:59:59 PM EDT
[#43]
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Quoted:
1964 with intel from 2017?

Fuck that, I'm gonna start my stamp collection with M16A1's, and probably pick up a few Series '70s and Pythons while I'm at it.
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You'd be better off buying stocks. The M16s would lose value until 1986.
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 7:02:09 PM EDT
[#44]
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Quoted:


You'd be better off buying stocks. The M16s would lose value until 1986.
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Yeah, but I'm an irrational idiot. Picking up both Apple and Microsoft in the beginning would net me any  NFA toy I could ever want, including a decommissioned Mig 21.
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 7:04:17 PM EDT
[#45]
6.5 Grendel.
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 7:11:01 PM EDT
[#46]
6mm CAKE - 85gr EPR w/ .445 BC @ 3,000fps. Still doing 1700fps/546 ft/lbs @ 700 yards, with less recoil then a 7.62x39.

Closest current case is a 6-6.8SPC wildcat, which are currently launching 85gr's @ 2950fps.
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 7:17:34 PM EDT
[#47]
22 lr

Link Posted: 6/30/2017 7:18:20 PM EDT
[#48]
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Quoted:
6.5 Grendel.
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Link Posted: 6/30/2017 7:19:54 PM EDT
[#49]
30-06
Link Posted: 6/30/2017 7:25:24 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I think it was originally supposed to be 7.62x51mm
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Didn't stoner want something bigger than 5.56mm anyways?
I think it was originally supposed to be 7.62x51mm
You guys failed the lesson on M16 development.   The AR-10 predated the AR-15, and it was designed around the 7.62x51 cartridge, of course.

Stoner went on to create the AR-15 after DARPA showed interest in smaller caliber stuff based on it's work in Project SALVO.
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