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Posted: 6/30/2017 4:57:58 PM EDT
Say you're Eugene Stoner in 1964. Yet somehow, you know all of the cartridge developments that will take place in the next 50-odd years. You are starting from scratch, with a blank sheet of paper. So, what do you chamber this new, lightweight, plastic-and-aluminum assault rifle in?
Now, as all intelligent people of course agree, 5.56 NATO is totally inadequate (). And yet 7.62 NATO, a clearly superior round, has that weight/bulk/recoil thing going on. Keep in mind, since we are starting with a blank sheet of paper, we can bump the mag well out far enough to take a slightly longer cartridge. Personally, I've always had kind of a soft spot for the .250 Savage, as it pretty well cuts the middle ground between 5.56 and 7.62. Or, something in 6.5 mm, as there's alot of highly accurate rounds in this bore diameter? Perhaps .243 Win, as that occupies much of the same middle ground as the Savage. Or, would you stick with the 5.56, with the possible proviso of going for 1 in 7 way earlier? Or one of the 5.56-based rounds, like the 6.8 SPC? Or, you could even go the other way, say to the .221 Fireball? You could carry even more, and have an even shorter mag well with that one! Maybe even one of the .17 calibers? Wind bucking would be a bitch, tho... So what thinketh the hivemind? |
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First post nailed it. I was just thinking 6x45mm as I read the OP. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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something in the 6mm family? The advantage of the 6×45 mm over the .223 Remington is that it is capable of being loaded with heavier bullets with better ballistic coefficient ratings than its parent cartridge, the .223 Remington. This results in a flatter trajectory (with bullets of similar weight), less susceptibility to wind drift and better energy retention characteristics. |
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7.62 and take AK mags... I like the idea of harvesting loaded mags from our dead enemies
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6mm savage. Boom.
Small arms development stagnates for 100 years. |
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Considering Stoner did his AR15 development work in 59 and 60, 64 would be a bit late to the party...
If you're trying to make a case for caliber change upon/before adoption, that'd have been up to the ordnance board and not Stoner or Colt or Armalite. You'd still have gotten 5.56 and the wrong powder out of those chuckleheads. |
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220 Thunderbolt... with 77GR
6mm Hagar necked down to 22. I have one in a 20 in barrel, 77's mag length at 3100 fps. |
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I'd set the time machine for the mid-1950s first.
Then recommend the 5.45x39mm case or a 6.5 Grendel case, but with a 6x39 (5.45 case) or .257" projectile in the Grendel case. Keep the 30rd magazine size/height without crunching the COL too much, so we could still carry plenty of mags, which the 5.45x39 case allows. Grendel case increases the mag size a bit in the height dimension. Use an 87gr bullet for the standard multipurpose rifle load, and a 105gr-123gr DM/Sniper load. The 87gr would still have a secant ogive and a boattail, FMJ, so get the BC over .4 G1 on it. The 105-123gr would be in the .5 to .590 G1 BC region at least. For the .257 1117-123gr, it would be closer to .6 G1/.3 G7. For the 6mm, it would be a 105-110gr with very high BC. |
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I'd set the time machine for the mid-1950s first. Then recommend the 5.45x39mm case or a 6.5 Grendel case, but with a 6x39 (5.45 case) or .257" projectile in the Grendel case. Keep the 30rd magazine size/height without crunching the COL too much, so we could still carry plenty of mags, which the 5.45x39 case allows. Grendel case increases the mag size a bit in the height dimension. Use an 87gr bullet for the standard multipurpose rifle load, and a 105gr-123gr DM/Sniper load. The 87gr would still have a secant ogive and a boattail, FMJ, so get the BC over .4 G1 on it. The 105-123gr would be in the .5 to .590 G1 BC region at least. For the .257 1117-123gr, it would be closer to .6 G1/.3 G7. For the 6mm, it would be a 105-110gr with very high BC. View Quote |
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I'd set the time machine for the mid-1950s first. Then recommend the 5.45x39mm case or a 6.5 Grendel case, but with a 6x39 (5.45 case) or .257" projectile in the Grendel case. Keep the 30rd magazine size/height without crunching the COL too much, so we could still carry plenty of mags, which the 5.45x39 case allows. Grendel case increases the mag size a bit in the height dimension. Use an 87gr bullet for the standard multipurpose rifle load, and a 105gr-123gr DM/Sniper load. The 87gr would still have a secant ogive and a boattail, FMJ, so get the BC over .4 G1 on it. The 105-123gr would be in the .5 to .590 G1 BC region at least. For the .257 1117-123gr, it would be closer to .6 G1/.3 G7. For the 6mm, it would be a 105-110gr with very high BC. View Quote |
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Fuck that i am buying IBM stock. And when i sell that, i am buying an NFL team.
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Do the same thing but increase dimensions just enough so that a 90 grain load can fit in the mag. Issue rifle with a 1/7 twist with Mk262 as main issue round and heavier rounds availible as dmr ammo.
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And make the AR-16/M-16 a constant recoil system while you are at it. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I'd set the time machine for the mid-1950s first. Then recommend the 5.45x39mm case or a 6.5 Grendel case, but with a 6x39 (5.45 case) or .257" projectile in the Grendel case. Keep the 30rd magazine size/height without crunching the COL too much, so we could still carry plenty of mags, which the 5.45x39 case allows. Grendel case increases the mag size a bit in the height dimension. Use an 87gr bullet for the standard multipurpose rifle load, and a 105gr-123gr DM/Sniper load. The 87gr would still have a secant ogive and a boattail, FMJ, so get the BC over .4 G1 on it. The 105-123gr would be in the .5 to .590 G1 BC region at least. For the .257 1117-123gr, it would be closer to .6 G1/.3 G7. For the 6mm, it would be a 105-110gr with very high BC. That's a huge effect on hit probability and the overall design right there. I would not increase the COL much though because AR15 mags are one of the easiest mags to carry when looking at having a compact basic load of 210rds or more. If you make the magazine too wide and too long, your ability to carry a basic load of 210rds gets limited, especially on smaller soldiers or those of us who have to carry additional critical items on our fighting load (radios for key leaders). |
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7.62 and take AK mags... I like the idea of harvesting loaded mags from our dead enemies View Quote |
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Bullet manufacturing method and ability in addition to powder development on par?
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I'd keep the caliber the same but make the magazine a little longer and use a heavier bullet.
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1964 with intel from 2017?
Fuck that, I'm gonna start my stamp collection with M16A1's, and probably pick up a few Series '70s and Pythons while I'm at it. |
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6mm CAKE - 85gr EPR w/ .445 BC @ 3,000fps. Still doing 1700fps/546 ft/lbs @ 700 yards, with less recoil then a 7.62x39.
Closest current case is a 6-6.8SPC wildcat, which are currently launching 85gr's @ 2950fps. |
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I think it was originally supposed to be 7.62x51mm View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Didn't stoner want something bigger than 5.56mm anyways? Stoner went on to create the AR-15 after DARPA showed interest in smaller caliber stuff based on it's work in Project SALVO. |
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