I've been working with my young adult daughter on self-defense revolver techniques. Although she's fired guns a few times a year since she was about 10, she is not a "gun person". She recently acquired her carry permit and may be carrying in the near future. She's able to draw, fire, and hit the target at distances she's likely to encounter in our home and around town. She's level-headed and has a solid foundation on the mechanics of shooting so now I'm looking to give her resources that she could use to educate herself on the legal and mindset issues that come with using a firearm for self-defense.


When I started carrying in the early 90's the best known book was Ayoob's In the Gravest Extreme. I figure I'll find my old copy and give it to her, but are there any newer books/websites any of you would recommend for her?

In for the "I'd suck Ayoob's dick" and "Ayoob is a poser who sucks dicks."  

Let the purse swinging begin in 3..2..1..

Damnitall!

Sorry for the double post.

tag.  have the book, have yet to read.  interested to hear what folk have to say.

ETA: OP needs to correct the thread title.

(and I need to learn the difference between "quote" and "edit")

Fix your title.

The name of the book was "In The Gravest Extreme."

Not "In The Greatest Extreme."

Yes, still has very basic and fundamental relevance.

Thank you, Arfcom spellcheck. Title/post edited.

He now has a similar but much thicker book.  Can't remember the title.  I still give out copies of ITGE.

Some parts of the book are dated but "Shooting to Live" is still a good book. It is all about using your gun as a weapon and specifically states it is not about target shooting at all. The techniques were derived as a result of British police getting their asses shot off in Shanghai. Once the techniques were applied the kill ratio completely reversed. The guys who wrote it were personally in hundreds of documented shootings not to mention their officers. It is an interesting read and is free on line now.

Ironically, I'm sitting in Massad Ayoob's class right this very minute.

His knowledge of self defense laws is legendary.
He's also a damn funny guy. 

Christ, is he still doing that shit?

I took LFI I in 1985 or so.

ETA: I looked up my certificate ........ August 1984.

Took it in 1996. . . Was good!

Yep. He's a great speaker too.

I took LFI I-II in the early 90s.  He did a great job.

In The Gravest Extreme is a good foundation to build your armed self-defense knowledge on.

I don't get the Ayoob Hate
Or the cult like defense of some valid criticism of his background

yeah he's not perfect but he is soild for the most part

Sure beats most ways people learn about self defense consequences/actions   like uncle jerry telling you to drag the perp inside the house

Couldn't think of a better way to sum up up my feelings about him.

Lots and lots and lots of courses, books and videos on HOW to shoot are out there.  However, there is damned few sources of info on WHEN to shoot.  In the Gravest Extreme is one of those later sources.

virtually every day I encounter information that is both dangerous and wrong.  How many times have you heard the old adage " better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6"?  This is bullshit.  Why be judged at all???  The civil and or criminal trial that can follow a completely justified self defense shooting is likely to ruin your life.  Even if you "win", you've lost.  you've lost well over six figures in attorney fees, if nothing else.

I will also add this:  Prosecutors and district attorneys are NOT interested in seeking or finding justice.  They often are far more interested in obtaining publicity and running for re-election.  And they have ZERO qualms about using you -  or your daughter- as a sacrificial lamb if it suits their politics.  I've seen this play out right here, in my home town,  over the past several years.  Local kid was strangled in his apartment.  Mother's former boyfriend was Sheriff's deputy.  Mother has restraining order against the boyfriend/deputy.  But law enforcement simply ignored all that and focused on another former boyfriend.  There was ZERO physical evidence of ANY kind.  New DA runs for office, on one platform -   I will prosecute the second boyfriend.  Which the new DA did.  Not one, but two trials later, it finally ends for this poor guy, with an innocent verdict.  The ONLY evidence of any kind was a video tape from a surveillance camera showing the boyfriend leaving a parking lot about six blocks from the murder.  The entire case was totally meritless, and purely a 100% political play  by the DA.  Only it cost this poor defendant about three years of his life, a shit pile of time behind bars, his job, his family, his friends, and every single cent he had (as well as many of the cents he will earn) to defend himself from this self-serving bitch DA.  

The above happens.  I don't want to leave myself open to any of that.  The adivce in Gravest Extreme is somewhat dated when it comes to stuff like ammo selection and firearm selection.  However, the rationale remains valid.  There is very good info there on how to minimize your exposure to the political DA....

There is a whole lot of internet airchair commando bullshit here.  Massad Ayoob isn't any thing super special.  But he's just about the only one who has tried to address the legal, dealing-with-police, post shooting bullshit that happens after even a fully justified self defense shooting.  The info is good.  

I did take ayoobs MAG 40 class. He's no super-dude.  And he really really needs to loose the retarded toupee.  However, he was humble, thorough, and gave concise answers.  Answers where not "mass ad's opinion" but rather "there were three legal cases in which this factor played heavily in the verdict"....  In other words, case law demonstrating how XXX lead to verdict YYY.  I though the info was valid enough, and worthwhile enough, that when my daughter turns 21 and can carry, I'm taking her to MAG 40 as well.  No.  Its not a shooting class.  Its a self defense class, one that deals heavily with the aftermath of a self defense shooting.  Having info BEFOREHAND can avoid a lot of unnecessary bullshit AFTERWARDS.

The gift of fear is another one I recommend.  I got it on my kindle after it was recommended in a thread here somewhere.

I would highly recommend sending her links to the threads on this site where someone actually used a firearm to defend themselves.  The stuff that comes after, both mental and paperwork and publicity and what not surprised me.

One thread I recall was a home invasion I think.  Another was a mugging.  Might be in team, they pop up now and then so I don't have em bookmarked.

I figure it has been discussed here, but the companies offering ccw "insurance" have some interesting reading on their sites as well.

We just had a thread on a fella who lost a civil suit I think, was in the last week or two but I forget the specifics.

Basically mindset to defend yourself is important.  And at the same time I think the zimmerman stuff really shows how things might get spun or seen differently from how someone did something.

I carry as much as possible.  I don't have ccw insurance but in today's crazy world I halfway wonder if this won't be the new ambulance chasing lawyers use for sjw folks who won't work a real job.  Get sued for defending yourself.

I took LFI-I and LFI-II in the early 1990s; those are still relevant classes and In The Gravest Extreme is still a relevant book.  If you want something more recent look at Andy Branca's book Law of Self Defense or site http://lawofselfdefense.com/

Am I in before Ugrey42? 

Ayoob used to post here some time back, like several years.  I recall poster JohnWayne something or another telling not a good story about Mas in AK, or LA IRC.  Ayoob came on line and essentially tore the guy a new asshole.  Haven't seen him lately though.

Yep, it's decent for sure. Some bits are a little dated, but it's a good start.

LFI 2008  great course i recommend it for everyone, recently took Mike Seeklanders class.  lots of copy cats and posers  Mas is still the go to guy as long as he is breating

yes he is god with a small 'g'