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Posted: 5/1/2001 7:57:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2001 8:02:32 PM EDT by Freedom Fighter]
In a real word situation both you and the target will be moving. If you have a .45 with a total of 8 rounds and I have a 9mm with 16 shots who will win? Those rounds go fast when in panic mode. Forget about training or practice. That's nothing but BS. When was the last time you went face to face with an armed person when training or practicing? Never. I've seen a cop empy a whole clip and hit nothing but air, and the perp wasn't even an agent like the ones in "The Matrix". What are your chance of hitting anything? I speculate that when those 8 rounds run out you won't wish you had more power, but more rounds. What would happen if you had more than one target too? Please excuse me now, I must go and write a paper on mutations and bacteria.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:03:27 PM EDT
I agree, I have two .45's, but I would carry my 9mm Hi-Power if my state allowed CCW.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:05:26 PM EDT
With 8 rounds you make em count.With 16 you pray and pull the trigger.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:06:31 PM EDT
When you do hit something you want it to count. Para-Ordinance has 14 round .45's.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:15:11 PM EDT
yah, you guys always for get you CAN get 10 rd 1911s or hicap .45s. im a fan of .45 but one guy on a navy seal show summed it all up. he was showing the "2 centermass, and one in the head" system for CQB. then he incorperated a sidarm after a malfunction. he said ( in a really loud abbrasive voice) "2 in the chest one i nthe head" as he did the motions. then went on " some guys say its just a 9mm, it cant DO anything........well, when i put 2 shots through you heart and one through you head you wont know the diffrent will you" hehe
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:22:39 PM EDT
P14 Limited here, 5 high cap magazines for it too :) I'd much prefer the 45 ACP over the 9mm. Just personal preference, I like the big fat hollowpoints of a 185grn silvertip as opposed to the zippy 115grn 9mm hollowpoints. If I was gonna take a 9mm I'd prefer it to be as fast and as fragile as I could get it so that it will expand reliably. With the 45ACP I still prefer to get it as light and as fast as I can get it. With distance my confidence in being able to do a 2&1 shot becomes significantly lower as the range increases. All my shots are pretty much going to be center mass no matter what the distance.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:24:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:26:14 PM EDT
i personally wouldn't want to be out in the open long enough to have to empty my pistol clip. just fire a couple inherently accurate rounds (such as a .45) and go for cover. if single stack 8 shot .45 are good enough for the FBI HRT team, then i guess its good enough for me. i've owned at least a half dozen pistols of both 9mm and .45acp. the .45 is typically more accurate than most 9mm pistols. as the saying goes "wars are won with aimed fire". true i dont have combat experience, but i hear combat vets debate back and forth on this topic. the end conclusion is simply use what YOU feel comfortable with. .45 advocating lib
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:29:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/1/2001 8:30:28 PM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:30:46 PM EDT
Uhhh.. You pull the trigger when you know you are going to hit something. You don't spray and pray. That is why I took combat handgun training. If your target is running away then your life isn't in danger anymore is it? So you don't need to shoot. And BTW my H&K USP .45 holds 10 Hydrashok's + 1 I got another 10 if I need it.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:35:05 PM EDT
I didn't know there were so many grendel and broomhandle mauser shooters here. Are there other pistols that use clips? All of mine use magazines.....oh well.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:36:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By norman74: I didn't know there were so many grendel and broomhandle mauser shooters here. Are there other pistols that use clips? All of mine use magazines.....oh well.
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I wasn't going to say anything, but now that you mention it. [;)]
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:42:34 PM EDT
The VAST majority of civilian self defense encounters involve the expending of three rounds. I don't see any fearsome tactical need for high capacity in such a situation.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:45:18 PM EDT
In a real word situation both you and the target will be moving. If you have a .45 with a total of 8 rounds and I have a 9mm with 16 shots who will win?
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Freedom Fighter, see below:
Even in condition red, when you're in the depths of panic, have tunnel vision, etc., if it does nothing else, the training will cause unthinking rote from former repetition.
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Wilson, you are right. Gunfighting is like unarmed fighting. If you spend enough time practicing blocks/punches/kicks, you will react instinctively to an unarmed attack. You don't even think about it. You just react. Same thing with guns, except for one thing...unlike throwing a punch or kick, where death of the opponent is not usually the object or intent of the blow, pulling a trigger always is...If you're ever in a situation where taking life is appropriate, then the rote repetition will see you through....In which case, it doesn't matter if you're using a Ruger .22 or a .454 Casull Magnum.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:46:07 PM EDT
Is Freedom Fighter Realistic? 1. The .45 has won more Congressional Medals of Honor. 2. The .45 has won more marksmanship titles. 3. The .45 has made more one stop kills. Whats the 9mm. done lately?
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:51:24 PM EDT
10mm, best of both worlds, more power than the 45 or 9 too.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 8:51:32 PM EDT
Don't trials of gunbattle winners say something about how many rounds were in the victim. Meaning if I shoot my attacker 16 times I will be in more trouble than if I shot him 1 or 2 times.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 9:01:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 9:04:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 9:09:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/1/2001 9:12:12 PM EDT by dolphin72]
I agree with Rikwriter. If you get into a situation it is probably not going to involve more than a couple of shots in self defense. If you unload a 17 round 9mm mag at an assailant it is not going to look good in your favor when the cops are questioning you. I like 9's and 40's as well as 45's, but with the 40 & 45 you are definitely getting more stopping power. I personally wouldn't feel comforatble carrying anything less than a .40 for self defense.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 9:14:13 PM EDT
For conceal carry, I prefer .45 given the mag restriction. I carry a USP45 compact with remington golden sabres. I also carry two spare mags.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 9:23:02 PM EDT
>>? I speculate that when those 8 rounds run out you won't wish you had more power, but more rounds. What would happen if you had more than one target too?<< Although I do llike my Glock, don't underestimate the older designs. Lot of folks were quite successful in a lot of fights using the .45, or a revolver for that matter. And if you run out of ammo in one magazine, it is pretty simple to put another magazine in and get back to business.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 9:27:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/1/2001 9:30:04 PM EDT by NoCompromise]
Practice Practice Practice... That is inexperience in you talking. the cops in my home town carry Sig P220's. 3 mags(25rounds) but they ussually don't miss. If you are in a shootout with them, you are going to DIE!!!!! unlike the cops in San Antonio, where I now live,sad to say. [pistol]
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 9:28:22 PM EDT
Personally, I think the 9mm is more suited for todays applications. Except for a few models of HK and Glock, maybe a few others I am not aware of, anything beyond 10 rounds in the mag will stick out beyond the magwell, making it more bulky and sometimes cumbersome. Most 9mm pistols will carry 15 to 17 rounds and stay flush. FMJ is my preffered round of choice as it has is better all around cuz you just don't know what they are wearing and hollowpoints react differently to different types of clothes, of course I have not tested Federals new EFMJ. Now when you talk FMJ, .45 only has about a 5% increase in stopping power over 9mm. Optimal range on most handgun shooting is 25yds and in, which accuracy is about the same for 9mm and .45. Now I don't know what age you guys live in but criminals and gangmembers and other bad guys usually encountered will most likely be traveling with their buddies when they want to do something. 4 to 5 people is about average. Now if I needed to and could get all my shots off before I was rushed I could take out all of them with one mag of 9mm using three shots each if needed, can't do that with most .45s. Of course 3 shots may not be needed, but my point is you may have more than one adversary and their buddies could show up, and mag changing is not that quick 2-3 seconds if your good, by then most people would be on top of you. Weight is another factor, I would rather carry more rounds in less mags in 9mm, than the same amount of rounds in more mags in .45, this wieght may be negligable, but day after day it would be noticable. Frame size is another factor, most .45s with capactity above 10 are double stack mags which do not bode well for my small hands, which translates into poor shooting. Most single stack .45s, feel good, but the capacity is not there. Most 9mm, staggered or double stack mags are still rather slim and very comfortable. (Hmmmm, curious, why is there no staggered stack .45s?) My rant, I prefer the 9mm. Of course I also agree with LR308, I love the 10mm. Goddam S+W, screwed it over with the .40, and dam the cops who couldn't handle it. I wish it would take off again, we definatly have the technology to make handguns that will handle the pressure of this load longer. It may not feel good, but it does the job very well. Common somebody make a kickass 10mm.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 9:28:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/1/2001 9:28:17 PM EDT by darm441]
>>1. The .45 has won more Congressional Medals of Honor.<< People win medals, not guns. >>2. The .45 has won more marksmanship titles.<< Again, people win. Usually the winners would win no matter what equipment they had. >>3. The .45 has made more one stop kills.<< That is very questionable, considering the fact that the U.S. was the only place the .45 was ever very popular. The greatest number of one shot stops in a single incident goes to a 9mm, BTW. >>Whats the 9mm. done lately?<< Knocked off the .38 and .357 as the primary police caliber and knocked off the .45 as the primary military caliber.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 9:36:30 PM EDT
It's placement! not the size of the rock you're throwing. but I'll take a lot of small rocks insted of eight big ones. If it was a size thing we'd all be shooting 308's.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 9:37:43 PM EDT
well said Darm, I also like 9mil but I would not say my chances are better bacause I have more rounds and count on the other guy to spray and pray.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 9:46:47 PM EDT
I was ALWAYS sold 9mm hi-cap CCW handguns ....until a buddy of mine became a E.M.T. at our local trama center. To make a long story short....many, MANY , people can absorb this caliber and continue to be a threat to you. Some have even driven themselves to the hospital and walked into the emergency room. Now I must admit I've never been involved in a gunfight, and I hope I never will, however if I do have to ever pull my weapon in self defense.....I'd rather be aquitted of justifiable homicide than be found guilty of attempted murder. I personally find this confidence in a .45 caliber weapon : Para Ordnance P13 45 Limited .45 loaded out with CORBON +P 165 GR JHP's @ 1250fps. Jus my $0.02 --Rooster
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 9:54:31 PM EDT
Maybe I'm old, but I have owned SEVERAL .45s and presently carry TWO H&K USP45s w/Hi-Caps on duty and a USP 45c off duty. I have never needed more than two rounds to end a fight and that is because of double tapping (military/LEO). Other rounds are fine, but the larger the better as long as you can control the second shot. In a real world situation PRACTICE and TRAINING do make a difference, even if it is simulated. Of course there is paint ball exercises, laser gun devices, and tactical schools.......I guess Seals, Rangers, and LEOs just practice and have fun because their lives don't depend on it. Come On, Get Real! Note to Spelling Police: Please this is not edited for spelling or grammer.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 10:35:59 PM EDT
Everyone keeps talking about center mass shots and we all know that they are quite difficult under stress. I think you have a higher probability of hitting a non vital area (arm, leg, etc.) and I want the round that will have a better chance of disabling my target. Therefore I think the .45 is a better tool. IMHO, I believe that with the proper training, 8rds and fast tactical reloads should be more than enough to survive a gun fight. Besides, If I can't get the job done in 8rds, what good will the other 8 do me? -Red-
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 10:44:23 PM EDT
I'll happily take the .45 over the 9mm any day. I also practise as often as possible, and with all hte ling-distance driving I do, I take opportunity whenever possible (in the desert or somewhere else deserted) to engage targets while moving. I carry 7+1 +7 (minimum) with an extra 4x7 available nearby (or on my person.) Why so many rounds - I don't assume that I will only be facing one or two assailants at a time, and I like to be able to fill up wherever possible. What did I carry on duty? My 1911A1 got me out of more tight spots than I care to admit, and when the forces when to the Beretta 92, I stayed with the 1911A1. A well-placed large rack will stop just about anything, and I made sure to stay up on the Mozambique drill as well (two to centre mass, and one to the head) - as well as anything else I could come up with. Must be ready for armoured targets, drug freaks, or anything else that may go awry. Load? I stick to Federal's 200- or 230-grain HydraShok - whichever is available. I suppose the 9mm has its uses, but a large point in favour of the 1911/1991 is that no-one has been killed on the street with his own duty weapon when carrying one! Most of the 9's I have seen tese days are the DA or DAO - what Jeef Cooper calls "crunchentickers." I like having a sidearm that take some training to use, it helps keep it from being used against me in extremis. I make sure to train with it, and also keep up on retention methods as well. And, considering the physique of the average miscreant to-day, it is useful to know that even if the heavy .45 dosn't hit anything vital straight off, it will still get ther attention long enough to let me solve the problem. FFZ
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 11:04:28 PM EDT
Speaking of fast tatical reloads... I love how one of the USP's features are when you slam a magazine home the slide automaticly closes and chambers a round... 11 shots... drop mag, slam new one in, rock and roll.
Link Posted: 5/1/2001 11:07:00 PM EDT
Just a note on the training thing being BS. Think of it this way. when you go the range and practice you may shoot your best. With enough practice you will get better. In a stress full situation you maybe only able to shoot at 10% of your best. Now wouldnt you want your potential to be the best you can make it. I base the 10% on nothing it just a figure I threw out there but I hope you can see my point. Six
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 3:33:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2001 5:02:57 PM EDT by Derek45]
This and lots of practice is all you need... [img]http://wsphotofews.excite.com/028/dj/a1/gg/Vo36670.jpg[/img] Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas (Accuracy, Power, Speed)
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 4:03:47 AM EDT
I heard it said somewhere that pistols are only good for fighting your way to your rifle. If I'm gonna pack a pistol its gonna be my .45 hands down.
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 4:43:10 AM EDT
Most people seem to forget that if you ever have to use your weapon on a person, it would be inside your home. Most break-ins are done by drugged out or drunk junkies looking to score some crack money. When you shoot someone like that (in your house it would probably be no more than 15 ft) a 9mm would most likely pass through because of its smaller diameter an high velocity. You could probably put several rounds of 9mm through a crack head before he figured it out. On the other hand, the .45 was designed to shoot charging Philipinos on wacky weed and who knows what else. It worked so well that it became our standard pistol round for about 75 years. Also, don't forget Sgt York. If there is any truth to it, he dropped 7 germans with 7 shots from his .45.
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 6:09:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Freedom Fighter: In a real word situation both you and the target will be moving. If you have a .45 with a total of 8 rounds and I have a 9mm with 16 shots who will win?
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The one that trained to shoot at moving targets while moving.
Those rounds go fast when in panic mode. Forget about training or practice. That's nothing but BS.
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If you really think training is BS, you're a dumbass.
When was the last time you went face to face with an armed person when training or practicing? Never.
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Point taken. So, the Seals might as well save all the money they use for training and just send a guy right on a misson. Training is what takes over when you're faced with a life threating situation. I know. I've survived a parachute malfuction. Yes I was scared, but had I gone into "panic mode" I would not be alive to type this. I automatically went into the procedures that allowed me to clear the malfunction. Training counts.
I've seen a cop empy a whole clip and hit nothing but air, and the perp wasn't even an agent like the ones in "The Matrix".
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So you saw a poorly trained cop. So, what?
What are your chance of hitting anything?
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A lot better than yours apparently.
I speculate that when those 8 rounds run out you won't wish you had more power, but more rounds.
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I expect that when my 8 rounds are gone my attacker will be laying on the ground, I'll be behind cover and my 1911 will be topped off with another 8 rounds, and I won't even remeber having reloaded.
What would happen if you had more than one target too?
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He'll be crapping his pants and wonder how to clear the area without ending up like his buddy.
Please excuse me now, I must go and write a paper on mutations and bacteria.
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Have a good time.
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 6:20:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 6:46:59 AM EDT
I'll take the .45
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 6:51:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HANGFIRE: Is Freedom Fighter Realistic? 1. The .45 has won more Congressional Medals of Honor. 2. The .45 has won more marksmanship titles. 3. The .45 has made more one stop kills. Whats the 9mm. done lately?
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1}as someone said already people win medals not guns,the 1911 was in service a long time saw 2 world wars korea and vietnam,the M9 has only been in service since '85 and has'nt seen any real wars other than desert storm and a few conflicts in S.America..........only two medals of honor have been one since vietnam too,by the two Delta snipers in somilia.
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 8:56:19 AM EDT
Something that is frequently overlooked when it comes to defensive shooting in a real world scenerio is that you seldom have more than one chance to mitigate the situation. This is why I always practice double taps. If you only got one shot, you want whats going to transfer the most energy and put a halt to the situation with that one shot. To me there is no comparison between 9mm and .45acp. Just my .02
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 9:24:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 9:28:49 AM EDT
No matter if you're packing a revolver or one of the wondernine's with enough hi-cap mags to make HCI have a seizure, you should remember hit what your aiming at. [frag] If you end up "spraying and praying" you could hit something or someone you didn't mean to. You could have a long time to think about marksmanship in prison. [sex] Plus, if your adversary may be shooting at you with something a bit bigger, let's say a "sawed-off" shotgun. [shotgun] He doesn't have to aim to well to do some major damage to you at close range. Think of history. Sgt. York received limited military training(1914 grunt training, go into no man's land run, shoot, die) but was a skilled marksman. He killed 20 Germans with a 1911. Sometime you have to sacrifice firepower for conceilability, that's life. Be able to take them out with one shot, you'll be at a different level than the average liquir store robber at that point.
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 9:43:13 AM EDT
Someone told me something once that made a lot of sense. There are basically three ways to stop your attacker: 1. Your shot will hit a vital organ (heart, spinal column) and will prevent further action. 2. You won't hit any vitals and the target will have to "bleed out". 3. Once you've hit the target, he/she will think "oh shit" and if able will get away as fast as possible. I think any caliber will accomplish 1 and 3, and only see the 45 having an advantage in scenario 2. With advances in ammo technology, the 9mm round can be damn close to the 40 cal ballistically. i.e. Take a look at the specs on federal's new EFMJ, the 40 cal shows no real increase in power, just a bigger hole.
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 10:26:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 10:57:03 AM EDT
My solution has been a SIG 229 .40 w/ 12 rounds. Seems to me to be a healthy mix of stopping power and capacity.
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 11:20:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By new-arguy: haha, 8 rounds of .45 vs 16 shots of 9mm. First of that were the only two options, I'd still take the .45. With a 9mm, you may need the extra shots to actually stop the person. Luckily, a 8 round .45 is not our only option. with my HK USP with a preban 12 round magazine and a 3 round mag extention (which fits 4 extra actually) and one in the chamber, I am hefting 17 shots of 230 grain .45 hydrashock (plus a spare mag). According to your logic, now who wins?? [-!-!-]
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Go to HKPRO.com and read their policy concerning 12 round pre-ban USP .45 magazines. Something like stolen Gov't. property. Not that I care, it's our $$$ anyway,but FYI.
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 11:28:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sigman: .......only two medals of honor have been won since vietnam too, by the two Delta snipers in Somalia.
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Who carried .45s! It is no coincidence that the best trained military and LEAs use .45 caliber 1911s - SFODD, LAPD SWAT, USMC Recon DA, HRT. Proven sidearm + proven caliber. Larger holes equals faster blood loss, which is how handgun calibers kill(with the exception of a CNS hit).
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 11:51:29 AM EDT
I have a SIG P226 (9mm) and a SIG P220 (45 acp) for my CCW. Low threat? I carry the P220. More concerned? I carry the P226. Going to Las Vegas next week for a day. P220 is going.
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 1:45:15 PM EDT
The 45acp, positively. Training is only as good as the amount of effort you put into it. Two of the five guys on my old entry team (both military/funny hats) couldn't even keep 10 rounds on a silhouette target at 7 yards. I, who actually practiced and went to outside sources for training, point-shot to COM with no effort. Another guy on the team (military/funny hat) could have shot the course with his eyes closed (really!!!). Training and practice are everything. By the way, it was a familiarization course....not hard at all. The standard excuse was 'well, I carry an AR/MP5/P90, so I don't really need to worry about it'. uuunnnggghhh....
Link Posted: 5/2/2001 3:22:48 PM EDT
I'll take the 8 round .45. I'll only need the first 1 or 2 rounds anyway. If you think training is worthless, then you have not had any decent training. With enough training, you will know exactly what to do when the threat presents itself (draw, get cover if available, place front sight on center mass, pull trigger, repeat as needed). Problem is most weekend shooters do not really train for these situations. Slow fire shooting at stationary targets is not my idea of training. You must train with moving targets and low light firing (people move and most attacks happen at night) and learn to move yourself (moving objects are harder to hit). You also need to be "one" with your chosen handgun. You should get the best you can afford and practice constantly. I carry a Springfield TRP and shoot at least 100 rounds once a week, rain or shine. I also shoot some of my other guns for fun but the TRP is my "serious" gun and constant companion. Also keep in mind as a civilian you are liable for every bullet you launch, spray & pray is for cops they can get away with that shit, you can't. Make your shots count.
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