[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Right to work (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 11/12/2016 2:10:52 PM EDT
| Can we put a pin in all the union hate and talk about Right to Work( not likely, I know)? The new Governor here in Mo has promised to pass it which will affect my livelihood in the near future. For those unfamiliar with RTW, it basically says people in unions can reap the benefits of Union representation without having to pay Union dues. It's designed to hurt/breakup unions and benefit big business. I moved from Tx (RTW state) in 2013 where journeymen pipe fitters made something like 23$ an hour. The same journeymen here make right at $40 an hour not including health insurance, pension, supplemental etc. Have any of you trade workers seen the implementation of RTW in your state? How did it affect wages and amount of work in general? |
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When I was in high school Kroger was offering 25 cents more an hour than minimum wage, but I was told that I'd have to pay union dues. I responded that I wasn't going to be joining the union, only to be told that I had to join the union.
I didn't join the union. I also never worked at Kroger. I don't have a problem with unions as a concept of employees joining together to negotiate. I have a problem with closed shops, and the NLRB regs that dictate whether or not you can fire someone for not doing their job. |
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Unions put companies out of business because they're blond to anything other than their own.
They also help retain worthless employees. Something we have way too many of these days. I'm in a union. And need to be. Employer would fire us for the tiniest things otherwise. But the same 2% of people take 80% of the union help. |
| So you believe in forcing trade workers to pay dues to organizations that very liberal and, frankly, mobish all so that you can get paid wages that are above what the market will bare? Here is a hint, look at the states who's economy's are booming, generally they all are RTW. Unions had a place, then they took the stance of "if you line our pockets we will line your" without regard to the what the company can actually pay vs sustainable profits. |
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Been in a union. After union dues, I made less than minimum wage.
I also got fewer breaks, less benefits, and made less money than people doing the same job I was doing, but at Wal-Mart. Also, every penny I paid in to the union went to either elect democrats, or to pay for some organized crime boss to get another pool put in at his mansion. So no. Fuck unions. If a group of employees can't negotiate a fair contract without forcing other employees into a ton of useless regulations and business-killing money-wasting bullshit, then maybe they aren't worth what they think they are. |
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Unions do far more harm than good these days, the examples are too many to list. They are a big reason so many jobs have gone overseas. This is a bold ass lie The CEO of general motors makes 28 million dollars a year.If you honestly think there is a bigger reason then corporate greed that drives jobs overseas, then you sir, are either really nieve, or stupid. Unions are the only force that prevents this happening compleatly. All of this stupidity and hate just feeds the corporate money machine.WAKE UP NUMBNUTS. |
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Quoted:
Can we put a pin in all the union hate and talk about Right to Work( not likely, I know)? The new Governor here in Mo has promised to pass it which will affect my livelihood in the near future. For those unfamiliar with RTW, it basically says people in unions can reap the benefits of Union representation without having to pay Union dues. It's designed to hurt/breakup unions and benefit big business. I moved from Tx (RTW state) in 2013 where journeymen pipe fitters made something like 23$ an hour. The same journeymen here make right at $40 an hour not including health insurance, pension, supplemental etc. Have any of you trade workers seen the implementation of RTW in your state? How did it affect wages and amount of work in general? Detroit wasn't right to work and there is no auto industry there now. The south was right to work and the auto industry is booming. The wages weren't that different between Detroit auto plants and southern ones either the wage difference you see is probably not as tied to right to work as you think. Is there a different cost of living there? |
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Quoted:
Can we put a pin in all the union hate and talk about Right to Work( not likely, I know)? The new Governor here in Mo has promised to pass it which will affect my livelihood in the near future. For those unfamiliar with RTW, it basically says people in unions can reap the benefits of Union representation without having to pay Union dues. It's designed to hurt/breakup unions and benefit big business. I moved from Tx (RTW state) in 2013 where journeymen pipe fitters made something like 23$ an hour. The same journeymen here make right at $40 an hour not including health insurance, pension, supplemental etc. Have any of you trade workers seen the implementation of RTW in your state? How did it affect wages and amount of work in general? If you want to know how unions help the working man take a look at Detroit. A real blue-collar utopia, right? |
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This is a bold ass lie Quoted:
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Unions do far more harm than good these days, the examples are too many to list. They are a big reason so many jobs have gone overseas. This is a bold ass lie There is a reason why ford had started to put more factories in Mexico...... |
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Once again, FPNI.
I believe in individualism. If those individuals want to join together to form a union, so be it. They can enjoy the benefits, and also reap the consequences. They shouldn't be able to force this on other individuals. Is this fair? I don't know. I did not graduate from Karl Marx Kindergarten. 
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| Michigan went to RTW and all hell hasn't been breaking loose. Majority of union members are staying in the union. They are firmly entrenched in the domestic automotive and government. Where is does benefit is the general public because now goods and services actually have non-union competition instead of a virtual union monopoly of the labor pool. Smaller companies are gaining jobs in construction, trades and infrastructure by raising their wages a little closer to union scale but not as high. Non-union companies are winning more bids and logging in more hours where there are no union mandates. |
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When I was in high school Kroger was offering 25 cents more an hour than minimum wage, but I was told that I'd have to pay union dues. I responded that I wasn't going to be joining the union, only to be told that I had to join the union. I didn't join the union. I also never worked at Kroger. I don't have a problem with unions as a concept of employees joining together to negotiate. I have a problem with closed shops, and the NLRB regs that dictate whether or not you can fire someone for not doing their job. Union contractors account for something like 13% of the workforce here, so that's not really a valid argument. Don't want to work Union? Go to one of the many non Union shops. Want to work Union but not have to pay for said Union representation? That's just another version of fsa IMO. |
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This is a bold ass lie The CEO of general motors makes 28 million dollars a year.If you honestly think there is a bigger reason then corporate greed that drives jobs overseas, then you sir, are either really nieve, or stupid. Unions are the only force that prevents this happening compleatly. All of this stupidity and hate just feeds the corporate money machine.WAKE UP NUMBNUTS. Quoted:
Quoted:
Unions do far more harm than good these days, the examples are too many to list. They are a big reason so many jobs have gone overseas. This is a bold ass lie The CEO of general motors makes 28 million dollars a year.If you honestly think there is a bigger reason then corporate greed that drives jobs overseas, then you sir, are either really nieve, or stupid. Unions are the only force that prevents this happening compleatly. All of this stupidity and hate just feeds the corporate money machine.WAKE UP NUMBNUTS. What does the ceo's pay have to do with anything comrade? People are a commodity, they have a market value. Union or not, they will work for their market rate or someone else will. Im not against unions, but i think it should be the workers and the companies choice to deal with them. I own various stock in my retirement plan. Nothing major. You can bet your ass that every one of those ceo's has a financial responsibility to me, the shareholder, to keep costs low and make as much profit as possible within the bounds of the law. Labor is a line item on the p/l just like office supplies, professional fees, and advertising. Also, to the op, how does the cost of living compare from tx to mo? That may be a big part of it. Texas is pretty cheap in most areas. My guys in texas and kansas live pretty well on 25 an hour with benefits. In some states, they wouldnt. |
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Detroit wasn't right to work and there is no auto industry there now. The south was right to work and the auto industry is booming. The wages weren't that different between Detroit auto plants and southern ones either the wage difference you see is probably not as tied to right to work as you think. Is there a different cost of living there? Quoted:
Quoted:
Can we put a pin in all the union hate and talk about Right to Work( not likely, I know)? The new Governor here in Mo has promised to pass it which will affect my livelihood in the near future. For those unfamiliar with RTW, it basically says people in unions can reap the benefits of Union representation without having to pay Union dues. It's designed to hurt/breakup unions and benefit big business. I moved from Tx (RTW state) in 2013 where journeymen pipe fitters made something like 23$ an hour. The same journeymen here make right at $40 an hour not including health insurance, pension, supplemental etc. Have any of you trade workers seen the implementation of RTW in your state? How did it affect wages and amount of work in general? Detroit wasn't right to work and there is no auto industry there now. The south was right to work and the auto industry is booming. The wages weren't that different between Detroit auto plants and southern ones either the wage difference you see is probably not as tied to right to work as you think. Is there a different cost of living there? Are you serious? No auto industry in Detroit? Detroit is still the center of the entire automotive world by a huge margin. The southern auto industry is very small compared to the Detroit area. I am not sure where you got that idea, but it is wrong. |
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So you believe in forcing trade workers to pay dues to organizations that very liberal and, frankly, mobish all so that you can get paid wages that are above what the market will bare? Here is a hint, look at the states who's economy's are booming, generally they all are RTW. Unions had a place, then they took the stance of "if you line our pockets we will line your" without regard to the what the company can actually pay vs sustainable profits. Not at all. There are many non Union shops to work for. About 87% of mechanical contractors are non Union in Mo. I have a problem with people wanting to work for a Union shop and reap the benefits without paying dues. Nobody is being "forced" to do jack. Also non Union guys are paid based on Union wages. If our wages go down so will theirs, it's happened in many right to work states. |
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.......The CEO of general motors makes 28 million dollars a year.If you honestly think there is a bigger reason then corporate greed that drives jobs overseas, ........ If the corporation is so greedy, why do they pay the CEO 28 million dollars a year? Could probably find lots of folks that would do it for 2 million........ |
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For those unfamiliar with RTW, it basically says people in unions can reap the benefits of Union representation without having to pay Union dues. It's designed to hurt/breakup unions and benefit big business. Lemme guess, you heard that from the union rep who is paid 87/hr from your dues :| Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Been in a union. After union dues, I made less than minimum wage. I also got fewer breaks, less benefits, and made less money than people doing the same job I was doing, but at Wal-Mart. Also, every penny I paid in to the union went to either elect democrats, or to pay for some organized crime boss to get another pool put in at his mansion. So no. Fuck unions. If a group of employees can't negotiate a fair contract without forcing other employees into a ton of useless regulations and business-killing money-wasting bullshit, then maybe they aren't worth what they think they are. Agreed. Unions are mostly useless for non skilled workers making just above minimum wage. I'm talking skilled trade unions. |
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Agreed. Unions are mostly useless for non skilled workers making just above minimum wage. I'm talking skilled trade unions. Quoted:
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Been in a union. After union dues, I made less than minimum wage. I also got fewer breaks, less benefits, and made less money than people doing the same job I was doing, but at Wal-Mart. Also, every penny I paid in to the union went to either elect democrats, or to pay for some organized crime boss to get another pool put in at his mansion. So no. Fuck unions. If a group of employees can't negotiate a fair contract without forcing other employees into a ton of useless regulations and business-killing money-wasting bullshit, then maybe they aren't worth what they think they are. Agreed. Unions are mostly useless for non skilled workers making just above minimum wage. I'm talking skilled trade unions. So you think someone should be forced to join a Union in order to work in a skilled trade? You can't negotiate for yourself? Union flunkies crack me up. |
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Lemme guess, you heard that from the union rep who is paid 87/hr from your dues :| Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted:
Quoted:
For those unfamiliar with RTW, it basically says people in unions can reap the benefits of Union representation without having to pay Union dues. It's designed to hurt/breakup unions and benefit big business. Lemme guess, you heard that from the union rep who is paid 87/hr from your dues :| Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile If you can explain it better if love to hear it. RTW states people can join a union without being forced to pay dues. If that's not designed to bust unions I don't know what is. |
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Quoted:
Can we put a pin in all the union hate and talk about Right to Work( not likely, I know)? The new Governor here in Mo has promised to pass it which will affect my livelihood in the near future. For those unfamiliar with RTW, it basically says people in unions can reap the benefits of Union representation without having to pay Union dues. Opposing right to work laws means unions get to deduct dues from your pay without your consent. It's often spent on political activity the worker doesn't approve of in the first place. They take it so far in some states as to demand union dues from self-employed workers. You want a discussion? Here is you discussion: go pound sand. Union efforts are best spent on enforcing work and safety standards, not on scatterbrained price control efforts and coerced political activity. The fact that you're even talking about pensions shows that you're completely out of your fucking mind. |
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So you think someone should be forced to join a Union in order to work in a skilled trade? You can't negotiate for yourself? Union flunkies crack me up. Quoted:
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Been in a union. After union dues, I made less than minimum wage. I also got fewer breaks, less benefits, and made less money than people doing the same job I was doing, but at Wal-Mart. Also, every penny I paid in to the union went to either elect democrats, or to pay for some organized crime boss to get another pool put in at his mansion. So no. Fuck unions. If a group of employees can't negotiate a fair contract without forcing other employees into a ton of useless regulations and business-killing money-wasting bullshit, then maybe they aren't worth what they think they are. Agreed. Unions are mostly useless for non skilled workers making just above minimum wage. I'm talking skilled trade unions. So you think someone should be forced to join a Union in order to work in a skilled trade? You can't negotiate for yourself? Union flunkies crack me up. Of course not. Skilled trade in Mo is only 13% Union, there's plenty of jobs in non Union shops. Are you saying anybody who wants to work Union should be allowed to without paying dues? |
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Opposing right to work laws means unions get to deduct dues to pay without your consent. It's often spent on political activity the worker doesn't approve of in the first place. They take it so far in some states as to demand union dues from self-employed workers. You want a discussion? Here is you discussion: go pound sand. Union efforts are best spent on enforcing work and safety standards, not on scatterbrained price control efforts and coerced political activity. The fact that you're even talking about pensions shows that you're completely out of your fucking mind. Quoted:
Quoted:
Can we put a pin in all the union hate and talk about Right to Work( not likely, I know)? The new Governor here in Mo has promised to pass it which will affect my livelihood in the near future. For those unfamiliar with RTW, it basically says people in unions can reap the benefits of Union representation without having to pay Union dues. Opposing right to work laws means unions get to deduct dues to pay without your consent. It's often spent on political activity the worker doesn't approve of in the first place. They take it so far in some states as to demand union dues from self-employed workers. You want a discussion? Here is you discussion: go pound sand. Union efforts are best spent on enforcing work and safety standards, not on scatterbrained price control efforts and coerced political activity. The fact that you're even talking about pensions shows that you're completely out of your fucking mind. Not really following your comment about pensions,but thanks for the input. |
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Quoted:
Can we put a pin in all the union hate and talk about Right to Work( not likely, I know)? The new Governor here in Mo has promised to pass it which will affect my livelihood in the near future. For those unfamiliar with RTW, it basically says people in unions can reap the benefits of Union representation without having to pay Union dues. It's designed to hurt/breakup unions and benefit big business. I moved from Tx (RTW state) in 2013 where journeymen pipe fitters made something like 23$ an hour. The same journeymen here make right at $40 an hour not including health insurance, pension, supplemental etc. Have any of you trade workers seen the implementation of RTW in your state? How did it affect wages and amount of work in general? So you want to force people to join a union ? How Union but so unamerican. Virginia is a right to be free from Union interference state. |
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Not really following your comment about pensions,but thanks for the input. Quoted:
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Can we put a pin in all the union hate and talk about Right to Work( not likely, I know)? The new Governor here in Mo has promised to pass it which will affect my livelihood in the near future. For those unfamiliar with RTW, it basically says people in unions can reap the benefits of Union representation without having to pay Union dues. Opposing right to work laws means unions get to deduct dues to pay without your consent. It's often spent on political activity the worker doesn't approve of in the first place. They take it so far in some states as to demand union dues from self-employed workers. You want a discussion? Here is you discussion: go pound sand. Union efforts are best spent on enforcing work and safety standards, not on scatterbrained price control efforts and coerced political activity. The fact that you're even talking about pensions shows that you're completely out of your fucking mind. Not really following your comment about pensions,but thanks for the input. I'm telling you that you're delusional and just parroting someone's talking points, whether you know it or not. Pensions - as managed - have been a scam for years. Their management is contracted out at obscene rates to connected people who are willing to put numbers in the books that don't pass the laugh test. They're virtually all going to collapse, leaving you with nothing. No serious effort was ever made to keep them sustainable. |
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Quoted:
This is a bold ass lie The CEO of general motors makes 28 million dollars a year.If you honestly think there is a bigger reason then corporate greed that drives jobs overseas, then you sir, are either really nieve, or stupid. Unions are the only force that prevents this happening compleatly. All of this stupidity and hate just feeds the corporate money machine.WAKE UP NUMBNUTS. Quoted:
Quoted:
Unions do far more harm than good these days, the examples are too many to list. They are a big reason so many jobs have gone overseas. This is a bold ass lie The CEO of general motors makes 28 million dollars a year.If you honestly think there is a bigger reason then corporate greed that drives jobs overseas, then you sir, are either really nieve, or stupid. Unions are the only force that prevents this happening compleatly. All of this stupidity and hate just feeds the corporate money machine.WAKE UP NUMBNUTS. An occupier outs hijmself. If you have a problem with what a CEO of a billion dollar company makes, become one yourself. |
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Not at all. There are many non Union shops to work for. About 87% of mechanical contractors are non Union in Mo. I have a problem with people wanting to work for a Union shop and reap the benefits without paying dues. Nobody is being "forced" to do jack. Also non Union guys are paid based on Union wages. If our wages go down so will theirs, it's happened in many right to work states. Quoted:
Quoted:
So you believe in forcing trade workers to pay dues to organizations that very liberal and, frankly, mobish all so that you can get paid wages that are above what the market will bare? Here is a hint, look at the states who's economy's are booming, generally they all are RTW. Unions had a place, then they took the stance of "if you line our pockets we will line your" without regard to the what the company can actually pay vs sustainable profits. Not at all. There are many non Union shops to work for. About 87% of mechanical contractors are non Union in Mo. I have a problem with people wanting to work for a Union shop and reap the benefits without paying dues. Nobody is being "forced" to do jack. Also non Union guys are paid based on Union wages. If our wages go down so will theirs, it's happened in many right to work states. Is this really a prevailing wage issue? I think the real question is why do "individual contractors" get to tie their hourly rate/benefits to a completely separate business's contract - and a union is a business. |
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Good to know, thanks for the input. How about job safety on Union vs non Union job sites? Quoted:
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I have worked both union and non union in a right to work state. I have always had more money and better benefits working non union. as always YMMV. Good to know, thanks for the input. How about job safety on Union vs non Union job sites? I have worked a non union labor job since the Nixon administration. The safety nazis are close to killing us. If a union job is safer, I don't see how it can be productive. Who do you credit for the increase in job safety? (I do agree that there has been an increase). As much as I hate to say it, it is gov't oversight. Or, cultural advancement. Remember, I grew up when seat belts were optional, and padded dashes weren't even thought of |
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I'm telling you that you're delusional and just parroting someone's talking points, whether you know it or not. Pensions - as managed - have been a scam for years. Their management is contracted out at obscene rates to connected people who are willing to put numbers in the books that don't pass the laugh test. They're virtually all going to collapse, leaving you with nothing. No serious effort was ever made to keep them sustainable. Quoted:
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Can we put a pin in all the union hate and talk about Right to Work( not likely, I know)? The new Governor here in Mo has promised to pass it which will affect my livelihood in the near future. For those unfamiliar with RTW, it basically says people in unions can reap the benefits of Union representation without having to pay Union dues. Opposing right to work laws means unions get to deduct dues to pay without your consent. It's often spent on political activity the worker doesn't approve of in the first place. They take it so far in some states as to demand union dues from self-employed workers. You want a discussion? Here is you discussion: go pound sand. Union efforts are best spent on enforcing work and safety standards, not on scatterbrained price control efforts and coerced political activity. The fact that you're even talking about pensions shows that you're completely out of your fucking mind. Not really following your comment about pensions,but thanks for the input. I'm telling you that you're delusional and just parroting someone's talking points, whether you know it or not. Pensions - as managed - have been a scam for years. Their management is contracted out at obscene rates to connected people who are willing to put numbers in the books that don't pass the laugh test. They're virtually all going to collapse, leaving you with nothing. No serious effort was ever made to keep them sustainable. Ok, now I'm tracking. I'd like to think unions(at least the one I belong to) aren't the same as the corrupt mob run unions of yesterday, but your entitled to your opinion. |
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Requiring someone to join a union is bullshit. It should be illegal. And dont tell someone to go find a union free shop.
If my employer and I can agree on terms of employment we should be able to do business. The idea that a third party is entitled to a portion of my income for services I nether want or need is a violation of my rights. There should be a federal law requiring ALL states to be right to work. U ions nowadays are extortionists that prey on the working class to steal their money and funnel it to crooks and liberal shitbag politicians. The only thing they're good at is ensuring jobs get offshored. You wanna join a union , go ahead. Don't make me. |
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I have worked a non union labor job since the Nixon administration. The safety nazis are close to killing us. If a union job is safer, I don't see how it can be productive. Who do you credit for the increase in job safety? (I do agree that there has been an increase). As much as I hate to say it, it is gov't oversight. Or, cultural advancement. Remember, I grew up when seat belts were optional, and padded dashes weren't even thought of Quoted:
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I have worked both union and non union in a right to work state. I have always had more money and better benefits working non union. as always YMMV. Good to know, thanks for the input. How about job safety on Union vs non Union job sites? I have worked a non union labor job since the Nixon administration. The safety nazis are close to killing us. If a union job is safer, I don't see how it can be productive. Who do you credit for the increase in job safety? (I do agree that there has been an increase). As much as I hate to say it, it is gov't oversight. Or, cultural advancement. Remember, I grew up when seat belts were optional, and padded dashes weren't even thought of Yep. We sometimes spend 2 hours setting up safety just to get an hour of work done. I've never worked non Union trade so I'm not really qualified to compare the two as far as that goes. |
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Requiring someone to join a union is bullshit. It should be illegal. And dont tell someone to go find a union free shop. If my employer and I can agree on terms of employment we should be able to do business. The idea that a third party is entitled to a portion of my income for services I nether want or need is a violation of my rights. There should be a federal law requiring ALL states to be right to work. U ions nowadays are extortionists that prey on the working class to steal their money and funnel it to crooks and liberal shitbag politicians. The only thing they're good at is ensuring jobs get offshored. You wanna join a union , go ahead. Don't make me. ^ This. Unions, like communism, are all about the collective. It is detestable that an individual is not allowed to negotiate his own salary/benefits, without being extorted by a union. |
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If you can explain it better if love to hear it. RTW states people can join a union without being forced to pay dues. If that's not designed to bust unions I don't know what is. Quoted:
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For those unfamiliar with RTW, it basically says people in unions can reap the benefits of Union representation without having to pay Union dues. It's designed to hurt/breakup unions and benefit big business. Lemme guess, you heard that from the union rep who is paid 87/hr from your dues :| Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile If you can explain it better if love to hear it. RTW states people can join a union without being forced to pay dues. If that's not designed to bust unions I don't know what is. You sound like a typical brainwashed union member OP. I have a feeling you're not here to learn about free states, instead you're here to try to shill your union bs. Here's a hint... no one here cares. You won't get any sympathy. 
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^ This. Unions, like communism, are all about the collective. It is detestable that an individual is not allowed to negotiate his own salary/benefits, without being extorted by a union. Quoted:
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Requiring someone to join a union is bullshit. It should be illegal. And dont tell someone to go find a union free shop. If my employer and I can agree on terms of employment we should be able to do business. The idea that a third party is entitled to a portion of my income for services I nether want or need is a violation of my rights. There should be a federal law requiring ALL states to be right to work. U ions nowadays are extortionists that prey on the working class to steal their money and funnel it to crooks and liberal shitbag politicians. The only thing they're good at is ensuring jobs get offshored. You wanna join a union , go ahead. Don't make me. ^ This. Unions, like communism, are all about the collective. It is detestable that an individual is not allowed to negotiate his own salary/benefits, without being extorted by a union. Contractors are free to pay and employees negotiate whatever they can as long as it's at least journeyman wage, but I get the feeling your talking about contractors paying as little as they can. No? |