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Posted: 6/26/2003 3:06:18 PM EDT
Okay, we come in there and liberate these people from a tyrannical and brutal regime, and have it thrown back in our faces. Our guys are getting whacked daily. We've tried the "okay, you're free so enjoy" thing (nice approach). Now it's time to slam the IRON FIST down on these pieces of shit (not so nice approach). Who gives a flying fuck if we waste a few "civilians"? I sure as hell don't. ONE of our guys is worth more than a hundred of those Muslim animals. I'd let them see exactly what the wrath of the betrayed is like. They'd be wishing for Saddam back when we got through with them. CRUSH that country and it's people!!! A few RPG's come from a street corner and nobody seems to know anything? No problem. When they had their faces caved in from rifle butts I bet that'd refresh their memory. Grenades being dropped from overpasses? Again, no problem. Anyone standing on that overpass as the convoy approaches gets shot. It has come away from the "liberation" idea and more to the "conquer and subdue" stage. They must be made to fear us. It will also send a message to others tat we mean business. They were given the benefit of the doubt. Now they must pay, and pay dearly. As for the inevitable comparisons to Vietnam I'm sure is going to come up, I have this to say: It may be necessary to destroy the country to save it, or better yet to put them out of our misery. Flame away.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 3:09:46 PM EDT
Ever hear of Chechnya? Your welcome to it. Unless we have the sack to decide that for every one of ours, 10k of theirs, I don;t think we have a chance.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 3:15:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 3:17:18 PM EDT by ABNAK]
Hielo, Cutting and running is not an option, lest we repeat our Vietnam mistake of WASTING our guy's lives for nothing. I'm talking about total suppression of the people. Disagree or threaten and you get shot. Period. A boot on their neck, if you will. Having said that, I'm not so sure (as you stated) that we have the huevos for it. Nor do we have the necessary number of troops in country now to do a total crackdown.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 3:19:32 PM EDT
Ya wanna see planeloads of full body bags coming home?? Put abnak in charge....[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 3:25:10 PM EDT
The problem isn't with the Iraqi civilians, its the foreigners who came into Iraq for the war just because they wanted to fight the Americans. I think our people running the show over there are way to concerned about the WMD issue, so they are just letting everything else go to shit. The war was done flawlessly, but everything after that has just been one giant clusterfuck.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 3:26:09 PM EDT
Liberty86, And your solution is...? Cut and run? Sing kumbayah and give 'em a big hug? The Iraqi body bags would greatly outnumber ours, I can assure you. After all, you can only fill 'em till all those bastards are dead!
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 5:56:05 PM EDT
The best course of action is to create a functioning police and military force to maintain order while the economic infrastructure is restored. Our troops won't be able to withdraw until that happens. Iraq will never be a united democracy because of all the tribal factions involved. All the other Arab nations should contribute troops to form a peace-keeping force while Iraq goes through its economic recovery. Maybe the insurgents will be less likely to shoot at fellow Arabs. Panzer Out
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 7:09:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By panzersergeant: The best course of action is to create a functioning police and military force to maintain order while the economic infrastructure is restored. Our troops won't be able to withdraw until that happens. Iraq will never be a united democracy because of all the tribal factions involved. All the other Arab nations should contribute troops to form a peace-keeping force while Iraq goes through its economic recovery. Maybe the insurgents will be less likely to shoot at fellow Arabs. Panzer Out
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What he said. Ops
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 7:19:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ops:
Originally Posted By panzersergeant: The best course of action is to create a functioning police and military force to maintain order while the economic infrastructure is restored. Our troops won't be able to withdraw until that happens. Iraq will never be a united democracy because of all the tribal factions involved. All the other Arab nations should contribute troops to form a peace-keeping force while Iraq goes through its economic recovery. Maybe the insurgents will be less likely to shoot at fellow Arabs. Panzer Out
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What he said. Ops
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Exactly.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 7:37:18 PM EDT
Well, since we are talking about Vietnam, lets take a look at what worked and what did not. Special forces selective killing of Tax collectors and suspected VC and NVA cadre leaders...worked Burning down their villages and massacre's...did not work. If we want less in the way of Americans coming home in body bags, what we need to do is set up a reward system for turning in 35 year old abdul down the block with a Republican Guard tattoo on his arm, Then in a couple of days Abdul gets a visit in the middle of the night by the high speed low drag guys...which abdul does not survive. Screw looking for faces on playing cards to conduct nice civilized interviews. What we need is good old fashioned selective killing of anybody that even looks like they are a Former Goverment supporter, an Arab Nationalist, or a Radical Islamasist. You pick up the AK-47 and your not someone we've authorized to do so...you get smoked, it's just that simple.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 7:40:07 PM EDT
The biggest problem with rebuilding backwards regimes is culture. The people of Iraq have been force fed for years, and do not know how to take the initiative to help themselves. They need to learn how to stop bitching and lend a hand in building their own future. The easier they make it for the US troops, the sooner they can leave.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 7:49:39 PM EDT
Well, you didn't expect this to be a cake walk did you???? We will have troops there for at least 5 years. And those fuckers with laundry on their heads cannot even concieve of freedom !!! Go theu the towns, round up all those folks, sort them out by paying informants to roll over on the Bathists. Shoot those fucks in public. OR ... Pull out our guys AND NUKE THE SHIT OUT OF THE PLACE!!!!!!!!!!!!! This still is my first choice.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 8:18:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By panzersergeant: The best course of action is to create a functioning police and military force to maintain order while the economic infrastructure is restored. Our troops won't be able to withdraw until that happens.
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Yep! that's what the textbook says!! Get a "Front" Man!! Trouble is, the Iraqis, are capping "Collaborators"!
Iraq will never be a united democracy because of all the tribal factions involved.
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A fact, that prolly should have been thought out before fabricating WMD evidence.
All the other Arab nations should contribute troops to form a peace-keeping force while Iraq goes through its economic recovery. Maybe the insurgents will be less likely to shoot at fellow Arabs. Panzer Out
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The only "Armies", the arabs are forming, are the guys infiltrating from all over, to cap an American. If they can kill One a day, they'll do fine.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 8:21:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sniper1az: Pull out our guys AND NUKE THE SHIT OUT OF THE PLACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Thats actually the same exact thing the Russian generals said about Chechnya. The politicians over-rode that notion. Ya think that will even come close to happening here? Hell, in chechnya, the russian gov't allows the troops to kill whomever they deem necessary (Soldier, Civilian, who gives a shit- theyre all animals [the russian viewpoint]). IMO, Iraqis should just be thankfull that were not pulling stunts like the russians and just wiping out villages that so much as utter a peep of support for a non-american leadership (We just let them dance around our destroyed vehicles, and let them parade with our troops dead bodies).
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 9:15:12 AM EDT
A big problem with citizens turning in Baathists and Fedayeen loyalists is that they are still afraid of them. Every time one gets turned in, his buddies will chop off a finger of everyone on the block or something like that. If you're into self preservation or have a family, you'll keep your mouth shut unless you're carted out of the country upon turning them in.
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 9:49:24 AM EDT
I don't think it's time to nuke them from orbit yet. Right now the US casualties are tiny comared to what I expected. We are way below total Desert Storm casualties, and total KIA in the past two months have been about what we lost in Mogadishu. For now best to treat the locals with the kid gloves, and the terrorists with the iron fist. It would also be a great idea to get the Iraqi National Congress militia into play. They are large enough that they can guard 2-3 cities, but not Bagdhad. GunLvr
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 10:32:38 AM EDT
Brute force doesn't work. Look at the Russians in Chechneya. Same problem.
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 10:42:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Moondog: A big problem with citizens turning in Baathists and Fedayeen loyalists is that they are still afraid of them. Every time one gets turned in, his buddies will chop off a finger of everyone on the block or something like that. If you're into self preservation or have a family, you'll keep your mouth shut unless you're carted out of the country upon turning them in.
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Or if you were an Iraqi you could cap them yourself and when his budddy shows up to cut off fingers you kill him too.
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 11:57:39 AM EDT
I think that a better parallel (one we wish to avoid) is Ukraine, 1941. Don't forget, the majority of the Iraqi population just want to go to work, come home with enough money to live comfortably and raise their family. Quite a few of them like Americans. A minority are Baathists, foreign arabs, or just hate the US. Most of them are concentrated in the Tikrit triangle north of Baghdad and in Baghdad. Their goal is to make us do exactly what ABNAK proposes. I started out by mentioning Ukraine, 1941. When the Germans invaded the Ukraine, they were initially seen as liberators, freeing the Ukraine from the communist, godless Russians. When the Germans started smashing faces and hanging/shooting whole villages in retaliation for partisan activities, all they did was mobilize the entire population and increase their problem a hundred fold! We don't want that. I don't claim to have a solution. The "other muslim" suggestion could be a good idea. If the governments cooperated and sent people who are pro-west in their outlook, Jordan, Egypt and Turkey come to mind. They might be able to get around the problem that we face, i.e. even those who are pro-american are reluctant to turn in a fellow muslim to a non-muslim.
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 3:25:54 PM EDT
Maybe I should clarify my "fire and brimstone" theory. I'm not saying we go in and raze villages because of one incident or conduct a wholesale genocide of the Iraqi population. No Nazi tactics, but just a notch or two shy however. For instance, the town of Fallujah should have the population forcibly removed and relocated away from each other (after a thorough strip search). The town should then be leveled. This place is a bastion of resistance. Who gives a shit about Arab culture or them being offended, our guys are dying. To a lesser degree this can be accomplished throughout Iraq. Fallujah just happens to be a shining example, one where more extreme measures should be taken. Otherwise, a case by case basis. Someone previously mentioned guns. You have one, you get shot. We find one in a search, you go to the Baghdad Hilton. And no, they don't have 2nd Amendment rights or a constitution, and they're not OUR fellow citizens. We're talking about protecting our troops whom I value far more than them. The rules of engagement MUST either be totally done away with or loosened greatly. You think there's a threat? Take it out. Sort out the details later. Screw this "you must be fired on first" shit. Foreign trouble makers and Fedayeen remnants should be hung in public for all to see. I have no problem roughing up a few people who "didn't see a thing" but were standing right there when it happened. We must also use the "carrot" to entice a few people to squeal on their buddies, and reward them for doing so. A few visits in the middle of the night ain't a bad idea either. As far as my reference to a boot on their neck, I'm talking about martial law 24/7, not just at night. You wanna take a shit? Better make sure we know about it. NO protests allowed. Do so and we use FMJ to break it up, not rubber bullets. When they've EARNED the right to live peacefully it will be after they learn to act in a civil manner. Remember, we've already tried the nice approach with these ingrates. To sum it up, we don't need to act in a homicidal and beastial manner. However, it may have to be something in that general direction to get our point across. We must reward when behavior warrants it and CRUSH when it is appropriate. Do we have the troop strength there now to crackdown? No. Beef it up. Do we have the intestinal fortitude to enforce the above plan? Only time will tell. I'm just sick and tired of seeing our troops getting killed daily and we must nip this HARD before it gets totally out of control.
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 4:44:09 PM EDT
Pretty much every Iraqi says on camera "Thanks for getting rid of Saddam, but we dont want you here anymore. We can take it from here." Except for the decades of empirical evidence that shows the Arabs CANNOT handle setting up good political systems, I would agree. Now we are seeing nihilistic Arabs attacking their petroleum industry, the one thing going for them......because it's the one thing going for them. They're trying to destroy it to ensure the failure of the US to establish a liberal, secular state. Sorry, aside from one tiny little country, middle easterners are no-hopers. I am starting to favor bugging out of Iraq, so I can hear the same people bitching today about how they want the US out, moan and complain that the US just abandoned them. I think it would be worth it.
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 4:57:16 PM EDT
ABNAK. If you were in charge of the US govt, I would take up arms against you....[:D]
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 5:21:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/28/2003 9:51:38 AM EDT by SorryOciffer]
I wish we could just have a wall around all muslim nations. Anyone who scales it looking like they should be driving a cab, running a quicky-mart or flying on a carpet gets shot on sight. The only thing the arabs can do right is blow themselves up and spread lies. This, in my opinion, is not sufficient to justify the continuation of their race. If that's to blunt for some of you, oh-well. Just ask your self the next time you see an arab, do you REALLY trust him and think that he wouldn't stab an American in the back if he could get away with it. SorryOciffer
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 5:59:04 PM EDT
Liberty86, Man, if I were in charge... :) Collapsable stocks and bayonet lugs for everyone!
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 10:07:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ABNAK: Collapsable stocks and bayonet lugs for everyone!
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GOD DAMNIT! DU FREAK ALERT! Sorry, but not mentioning legalizing automatic weapons is just evil/communist/liberal if your talking about what you'd do if you were a ruler [;)]
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