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Posted: 6/25/2003 3:27:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 3:32:01 AM EDT by Iriqoise]
....you probably are at least partially if you believe in the second amendment to the U.S. Constitution to an American free state. Probably the question is: Do you know where you reside on the political spectrum of beliefs? Take the Libertarian's shortest political quiz in history, and find out! Here's the Libertarian Party site: http://www.lp.org/
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 3:48:38 AM EDT
[url]http://www.lp.org/quiz/[/url] [img]edjones7.home.mchsi.com/line.gif[/img] [url=www.nra.org][b][red]NRA[/red][/url] [url=www.nra.org][blue]Life Member[/blue][/url] [url=www.gunowners.org][b][red]GOA[/red] [/url] [url=www.gunowners.org][blue]Life Member[/blue][/url] [url=www.saf.org][red]SAF[/red][/url] [url=www.saf.org][blue]Supporter[/blue][/url] [url=sas-aim.org][red]SAS[/red][/url] [url=sas-aim.org][blue]Supporter[/blue][/b][/url]
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 9:04:20 AM EDT
I dont support Open Borders, NAMBLA, or NORMAL. so I'm not a Libertarian.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 9:11:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan: I dont support Open Borders, NAMBLA, or NORMAL. so I'm not a Libertarian.
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I dont support Open Borders or NAMBLA but I am still a libertarian. Of course I am forced to vote republican, but that is for another tread.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 9:16:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan: I dont support Open Borders, NAMBLA, or NORMAL. so I'm not a Libertarian.
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Funny as a Republican I didn't support unregulated borders, The 89 Import Ban or religious based government and a host of other things we got anyway. Also can you please show me where Libertarians support NAMBLA? I don't even think I want to know what NORMAL is.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 9:18:52 AM EDT
NORMAL= Nation Organisation For the Reform of Marijuana Laws. I support them [headbang]
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 9:22:02 AM EDT
There are gaping holes in their philosiphy, that they defend with weak arguments. We must face the fact that government is a necessary evil. We also must face the fact that a certain level of taxation is necessary. The major differentiator between political ideals is how much government there should be, and what is its role. I find it odd that liberals (not socialists mind you), who pride themselves on being the protectors of civil rights, have no interest in gun rights. Perhaps it's because it's a strange bedfellow, and they cannot/will not align themselves with the right in any fashion. I also find it odd that the right, who pride themselves on wanting smaller government and less intrusion, will enact draconian drug regulation, and massively grow the size any bureaucracy touching the "problem". If guns don't kill people, then drugs don't either...
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 9:22:20 AM EDT
[size=5][b]No![/b][/size=5]
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 9:29:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DriftPunch: There are gaping holes in their philosiphy, that they defend with weak arguments. We must face the fact that government is a necessary evil. We also must face the fact that a certain level of taxation is necessary. The major differentiator between political ideals is how much government there should be, and what is its role. I find it odd that liberals (not socialists mind you), who pride themselves on being the protectors of civil rights, have no interest in gun rights. Perhaps it's because it's a strange bedfellow, and they cannot/will not align themselves with the right in any fashion. I also find it odd that the right, who pride themselves on wanting smaller government and less intrusion, will enact draconian drug regulation, and massively grow the size any bureaucracy touching the "problem". If guns don't kill people, then drugs don't either...
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There are gaping holes in all ideologies. You can't make a blanket statement descrbing every single Libertarian views. They are different! Just like no one Republican thinks that same!
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 9:29:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 9:33:49 AM EDT by The_Macallan]
[b]NOT A CHANCE!![/b] [stick] Open borders = no borders. That's not just what one or two party members believe - that's part of the ENTIRE party platform - it's a basic principle of Losertarianism! That would be like if the Republican's put a statement supporting gun-confiscation IN THEIR [u]PARTY PLATFORM[/u]!! [chair] IMO, open borders is just as repugnant as the worst unconstitutional law could be. [b][size=3]LOSERTARIANS SUCK WIND!!![/size=3][/b] [XX(][heavy]
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 9:31:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 9:41:59 AM EDT by Andreuha]
Nambla? Thats a real organization? Like one one on south park? (North American Man-Boy Love Association?) I'm in centrist stuck right in between Libertarian and Conservative. Open borders would suck, because everyone and theirs would come to live here. Then again, if the goverment would drop welfare and all that crap like the libertarians would like, then they wouldnt want to live here as they'd still have to get jobs. The INS does a good job at weeding out people that they dont want in this country, and thats why we have borders. People can immigrate, but for reasons other than to live off our income. I'm all for immigration, but of Scientists, professors, and otherwise people who can contribute to this nation. Not welfare-grubbing mexicans (Or other groups for that matter). In any case, I dont agree with NAMBLA, but I wouldnt stop it. NORMAL, I wouldnt stop either. Open borders, SUCKS. Basically, i think of NAMBLA and NORMAL as groups just like pro-gunners; wanting to do what some call 'evil' and make laws against it. Open borders groups on the other hand are just plain idiots.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 10:11:22 AM EDT
I'm not.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 10:27:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DriftPunch: There are gaping holes in their philosiphy, that they defend with weak arguments. We must face the fact that government is a necessary evil. We also must face the fact that a certain level of taxation is necessary. The major differentiator between political ideals is how much government there should be, and what is its role.
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Neither the Democrats or Republicans offer much in the way of consistant philosophy--which I suppose is to be expected of large, pragmatic political parties. Libertarian philosophy is much more consistant. I'm both a libertarian and a Libertarian. I was, not long ago, a libertarian and a Republican. Since Kalifornia allows me to vote for anyone I want during the primaries, there was no advantage to being a Rebulican, so I changed to a more consistant and philosophical political party. I also think that government is necessary evil--many libertarians (perhaps most) believe this. In my case it is because I think that nature abhores a vaccum, and absent a government one would form--and I'd prefer a government of our choosing (sorta our choosing) to whatever might evolve.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 10:38:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Originally Posted By AR15fan: I dont support Open Borders, NAMBLA, or NORMAL. so I'm not a Libertarian.
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Marijuana is fine by me. People should be able to use it as they choose, just like beer or whisky. NAMBLA is disgusting, and I don't see any libertarian support for it. Limited government libertarians believe in laws preventing that kind of stuff, except perhaps for a few fringe types). Obviously, anarchist libertarians don't believe in any government laws, but I suspect that they would be fine with angry parents taking the law into their own hands in these kinds of matters. Open borders? I live on the border, just as my family has for about 130 years. I don't believe, philosophically, in truely open borders (we have a right to defend our borders; others have no right to cross), but I think we would be better off if we loosened them up. That is, we should end the drug war, allow free trade accross the border, and allow Mexicans to cross back and forth as short term workers. This would actually decrease long term illegal immigration--many who come and stay would be happy to come and leave if we allowed them to.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 10:41:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Andreuha: Open borders would suck, because everyone and theirs would come to live here. Then again, if the goverment would drop welfare and all that crap like the libertarians would like, then they wouldnt want to live here as they'd still have to get jobs.
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I don't agree. If Losertarians were to be voted into majority position in Gov't - sure they could eliminate welfare etc. - but the open borders they'd create would allow in millions of immigrants who would THEN vote the Losterians out of office and replace them with Social Democrats who WOULD start up the welfare-state again. This is exactly what is happening in Kalifornistan - it used to be a moderate conservative state until the flood of immigrants came in and changed it into an enormous immigrant-friendly welfare state that panders to immigrants including the illegals.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 10:53:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By Andreuha: Open borders would suck, because everyone and theirs would come to live here. Then again, if the goverment would drop welfare and all that crap like the libertarians would like, then they wouldnt want to live here as they'd still have to get jobs.
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I don't agree. If Losertarians were to be voted into majority position in Gov't - sure they could eliminate welfare etc. - but the open borders they'd create would allow in millions of immigrants who would THEN vote the Losterians out of office and replace them with Social Democrats who WOULD start up the welfare-state again. This is exactly what is happening in Kalifornistan - it used to be a moderate conservative state until the flood of immigrants came in and changed it into an enormous immigrant-friendly welfare state that panders to immigrants including the illegals.
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That doesnt exactly go against what I said. I never said anything about what happens after libertarians. In any case, You are right. Possibly make it illegal for anyone not raised in the USA to vote... And enforce it? The only way things could be right'ed is with a mix of republican and libertarian ideals. Screw welfare, Make welfare limited to ONE YEAR per person. Period. Either get a job, or get out.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 11:11:32 AM EDT
no, but my cousin and his wife are both librarians...................... ooooooooh, LIBERTArians, nevermind [:D]
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 11:30:34 AM EDT
libertarian has ari(y)an in it: [img]http://fotw.vexillum.com/images/u/us}lnsg.gif[/img] Isn't it awful how horibly wrong everything has gone?
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 11:44:20 AM EDT
News Flash; the borders are already open. The welfare state exists. At this very moment illegals are crossing the border and taking welfare money. All you republicans must support this because your current administration sure does. Yet you bash libertarians for the idea of open borders [b]without[/b] the welfare state. I don't understand... But then again I don't vote republican either. I am a libertarian.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 11:53:52 AM EDT
little l libetarian here.....more likely an anarcho-capitalist but that is for a different discussion......How many of you who bitch about open borders have actually crossed one in the last year? They ARE open and the governments pays all those little brown people to come here...........try if you are white canadian or British.........you guys are getting screwed and complaining about a system that says no to screwing you....you are like a battered woman "But I love him...."
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 1:03:26 PM EDT
well, erm. I didnt exactly think of it that way [:)] Sorry! Just a glitch in posting. I wasnt thinking of the 45 year old guy asking a 7 year old boy out on a date. So nevermind. But I stand by NORMAL in that line.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 1:06:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 1:12:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Andreuha: well, erm. I didnt exactly think of it that way [:)] Sorry! Just a glitch in posting. I wasnt thinking of the 45 year old guy asking a 7 year old boy out on a date. So nevermind. But I stand by NORMAL in that line.
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Agree with the NORMAL bit also. Pointless waste of money and a blatant infringement of individual rights. I do not support drug use. Stupid, period. However, as americans we have a right to be stupid. Just don't ask me to pay for it. Pay for your own mistakes. I will delete my previous post. That kinda shit just really pisses me off.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 1:15:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 1:16:33 PM EDT by hound]
The only reason why nambla exists is because it is illegal to shoot them......
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 1:23:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hound: The only reason why nambla exists is because it is illegal to shoot them......
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Hmmm...I don't get it. [:D]
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 1:51:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 2:10:08 PM EDT by NickFury]
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 2:16:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 2:17:45 PM EDT by NickFury]
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 2:18:46 PM EDT
[b]ARE YOU A LIBERTARIAN,.... [/b] No, are you?
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 2:53:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 3:44:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sherrick13: The party with the right message is not the Libertarian party it is the Constitutionalist party.
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I like the name! More info? Link?
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 3:46:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: [size=5][b]No![/b][/size=5]
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Wow Duncan. I wonder why you say that so emphatically. I myself am a (small-l) libertarian and I find myself agreeing with almost everything you post, except for you in your xenophobic moments. Constitutionalists and libertarians agree on about 70 or 80% of the issues that are facing this country. Why not recognize each other for our similarities rather than splinter ourselves among our differences? By the way, I believe it was prominant libertarian L. Neil Smith who came up with the concept of "Bill of Rights" enforcement, and who advocates trying for treason any politician who has violated any of the Bill of Rights. A pipe dream? Sure as hell is, but his heart is in the right place! Join me Liberty and other Constitutionalists. We have more in common than not. -Nick Viejo.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 3:51:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 4:12:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By markl32: News Flash; the borders are already open. The welfare state exists. At this very moment illegals are crossing the border and taking welfare money. All you republicans must support this because your current administration sure does. Yet you bash libertarians for the idea of open borders [b]without[/b] the welfare state. I don't understand... But then again I don't vote republican either. I am a libertarian.
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Bravo, I support more principles of the Libertarian Party than either the Dems, Repubs, or Communists.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 2:02:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NickFury:
Originally Posted By Andreuha: ...Possibly make it illegal for anyone not raised in the USA to vote... And enforce it?...
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We can't even prevent the DEAD from voting in this country and you think we could filter out ILLEGALS?!?!? edited: ...or maybe this is just a problem here in the Deep South?
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...Electronic voting... One card per person, with said person prints. Card gets scanned, so does persons finger. Guy votes, card's number is added to a net-hosted list of people who already voted. Try to vote again, and BOTH your votes are erased. Better? [:D]
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 2:13:31 AM EDT
Every adult NAMBLA member should have his nuts sawed off with a rusty nail.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 4:36:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 4:42:38 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
Libertarian Platforms...
On sexual behavior: We support repeal of existing laws and policies which are intended to condemn, affirm, encourage, or deny sexual lifestyles or any set of attitudes about such lifestyles.
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NAMBLA
On immigration: ...We therefore call for the elimination of all restrictions on immigration, the abolition of the Immigration and Naturalization Service and the Border Patrol, and a declaration of full amnesty for all people who have entered the country illegally.
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Open borders=suicide. No more USA. We would become "North Mexico".
On the military: We call for the withdrawal of all American military personnel stationed abroad, including the countries of NATO Europe, Japan, the Philippines, Central America and South Korea. There is no current or foreseeable risk of any conventional military attack on the American people, particularly from long distances. We call for the withdrawal of the U.S. from commitments to engage in war on behalf of other governments and for abandonment of doctrines supporting military intervention such as the Monroe Doctrine.
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North Korea, hello? Their pull back from foreign involvement would guarantee that our enemies would develope and acquire nukes and ICBMs. How would we stop them? Then we'd have no presence to deter attack. (see their nuclear weapons policy for further proof)
On children and abortion/sex: ...we call for the repeal of all laws that restrict anyone, including children, from engaging in voluntary exchanges of goods, services, or information regarding human sexuality, reproduction, birth control, or related medical or biological technologies.
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Combine their Immigration Platform, with their "Internal Security Platform", and you'll have terrorists killing Americans by the millions. These are their positions, and they're idiotic. I'd rather have the Democrats controlling the House, Senate and Presidency, before I'd support their platform. The Libertarian platform, if enacted would destroy our country.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 6:18:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Andreuha: ...Electronic voting... One card per person, with said person prints. Card gets scanned, so does persons finger. Guy votes, card's number is added to a net-hosted list of people who already voted. Try to vote again, and BOTH your votes are erased. Better? [:D]
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Gee that sounds almost as simple as punching a hole in a piece of paper next to the name of the guy you want to be President. I mean - what could go wrong with that?? [:D]
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 6:23:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 6:25:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 6:26:47 AM EDT by Andreuha]
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By Andreuha: ...Electronic voting... One card per person, with said person prints. Card gets scanned, so does persons finger. Guy votes, card's number is added to a net-hosted list of people who already voted. Try to vote again, and BOTH your votes are erased. Better? [:D]
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Gee that sounds almost as simple as punching a hole in a piece of paper next to the name of the guy you want to be President. I mean - what could go wrong with that?? [:D]
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Well, gotta admit its better than some idiot walking around in putting its vote in at three different polling locations (not even registered in some cases). The only basic problem with my idea might be hackers. As the cards are ID's, and nothing more. Swipe it in the voting machine, machine checks with a main database for your ID and voting status, and put in your vote. Try and swipe it again at a different machine, and your vote(s) are erased and you cant vote again on that election day. BTW, This is the same kind of thing that ATM's, and countless account based video games use.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 6:26:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 6:31:12 AM EDT by Zaphod]
Originally Posted By DriftPunch: There are gaping holes in their philosiphy, that they defend with weak arguments. We must face the fact that government is a necessary evil. We also must face the fact that a certain level of taxation is necessary. The major differentiator between political ideals is how much government there should be, and what is its role. I find it odd that liberals (not socialists mind you), who pride themselves on being the protectors of civil rights, have no interest in gun rights. Perhaps it's because it's a strange bedfellow, and they cannot/will not align themselves with the right in any fashion. I also find it odd that the right, who pride themselves on wanting smaller government and less intrusion, will enact draconian drug regulation, and massively grow the size any bureaucracy touching the "problem". If guns don't kill people, then drugs don't either...
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You and I seem to be cut from the same political cloth.... Amazing how convoluted it can get, eh? Edited to add: BTW, I scored 100% and 80%, respectively, on that quiz, so according to them, I'm a Libertarian. However, I have a problem with the "open borders" question. If it refers to U.S. citizens moving within the borders of the United States, I agree wholeheartedly, and wonder why this would be an issue. If it refers to U.S. Citizens moving in and out of the country, I also agree. When it comes to NON-citizens moving in and out of the country, I DISAGREE. Am I correct in concluding that the Libertarian Party advocates open INTERNATIONAL borders?
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 6:36:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Andreuha: Nambla? Thats a real organization? Like one one on south park? (North American Man-Boy Love Association?)
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Yes, it's a real organization. It's been around since at least the late 1970's. No shit. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 6:58:05 AM EDT
a libertarian? I was.... but the 9/11 happened. I'm more an Imperialist now. I am THOROUGHLY convinced that some people are either unworth or incapable of self governance.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 8:24:57 AM EDT
Regarding Libertarian policies: You guys have a very unrealistic view of what would/could happen if a Libertarian ever became President. We would not suddenly have open borders, legalized prostitution, legalized marijuana and modern machine guns for everyone. The Libertarian may or may not want to repeal the 1934 National Firearms Act but that don't mean it's gonna happen. After all the Congress will still be full of Dems and Repubs. However the Libertarian will guard against future encroachments and may be able to move us toward more gun friendly territory. The above applies to all other areas. Cocaine isn't going to magically become a over the counter drug, but MAYBE there won't be guys doing more time than rapists and murderers for simple possession. Some of you suggest a Libertarian president is gonna show up with a magic wand that he will wave and get his way every time. That is not how government works. But, here is what a Libertarian president WILL be able to do. 1. Remind the Dems and Repubs that they are not a insitution and that they cannot ignore (or always count on) their core constituency. 2. Move the government toward a more constitutional position and bring constitutional issues to light for the general public who is sadly ignorant of them. Imagine for a moment that a Libertarian Administration brought our issues to a level of prominence that the Democrats get with environmental issues. This would force the Congress to vote one way or another and provide a firm record on where they stand on these issues which they usually avoid. Imagine the most flagrant violators of the Constitution being publicly taken to task in the same way Bill Clinton was for a blowjob. Members of Congress (both sides) scale back huge sections of the Constitution and our liberties and we are concerned with Bill Clinton blowing a load on a blue dress. Now I understand it is kinda like getting Al Capone for not paying his taxes, but the general public doesn't know about the other issues and think it's a witch hunt.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 9:06:49 AM EDT
Executive orders.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 9:15:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: Executive orders.
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I believe the Libertarian position is they are unconstitutional and illegal.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 9:23:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 9:26:18 AM EDT by NickFury]
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 9:35:07 AM EDT
Executive Orders are, for the most part , VERY unconstituional. The President is NOT a lawmaker, and that oversteps the checks and balances of our system. EX. Pres. Bush Sr.'s import ban with executive order. The president should not have that sort of power..that is what our House and Senate are for. The president is PART of the law making process...not a lawmaker on a whim. I am a Liberterian..but I do not agree with everything on the platform. such as- 1.Open Borders-I recently saw the effect of unchecked illegal immgration. I have a friend up in Seattle who is young, and about living on the streets. He is at the point where he will do any job just so he can have a roof over his head and something to eat..so he fiugred a fast food job would be at least something right? He could not get a job..the illegals take them all, and if you are not one of them, they won't hire you, or those in the jobs will see to it you get fired. So, how the heck is he supposed to even get a base job to just get by without some job skills? He was hoping to get a basic job like this so he could at least get situated and get by untill he could get aid for college. Yeah, open borders work. 2. 100% eliminaion of taxes-since there is going to be some public services-who is going to pay for the roads etc? A REASONABLE level of income tax is not bad. And by that I mean a low, flat tax that paid by everyone. We are all equal, we should all pay the same. Taxing the rich to death is penalizing working hard. However, the Death Tax, Capital Gains, etc..all should be eliminated. They are simply wealth distrubtion taxes and double taxation. 3.Although I feel there should be no laws on the books reguarding sex, NAMBLO is something that just makes me sick. Once you hit 18, should you choose to be involved with that sort of thing, fine, you are a adult. Untill then, sorry...no way should some 30-40 old man be having dates with 7 year olds. That is called child molestation-pure and simple. I also don't agree with a few other things, but I can't fully agree with any platform. Bottom line is that something has to be done to kick the current two factions running the gov that they are NOT the overlords they think they are.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 9:51:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 9:53:16 AM EDT by NickFury]
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 10:28:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 10:30:17 AM EDT by Atvar]
Yep, i'm a libertarian. I don't agree with ALL the party ideas...but it's the only viable party that supports the constitution! Sad but true, i cannot expect republicans to stand up for the Constitution [banghead] As for the sexual behavior plank, it is written too broad i admit. But remember...no matter what your sexual prefrence, sex with children is and always should be a crime. so i think the LP's "support" of NAMBLA is assumed by the person who hates the LP to begin with. I don't support open borders either...but we already have open borders.. Besides, party planks can be rewritten, i remember reading the Democratic party plank from 1900...it was basicly libertarian...no idea what the hell happend to the dems in those 100 years...coummunist infiltrators?!? [shock]
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 11:41:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Atvar: I don't support open borders either...but we already have open borders..
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Saying we already have open borders is kinda like saying we already have gun control - so why not vote for an admitted gun-grabber too?
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