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Posted: 6/18/2003 7:59:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2003 8:09:44 PM EDT by newbushmaster]
Anyone have pictures of N. Korean military gear/equipment, along with pics of N. Korean troops training? Thank you, Jason **Edited for title change**
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 3:17:37 AM EDT
Anyone got pics of 30 year old Chinese stuff?
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 3:25:04 AM EDT
Anyone got pics of 30 year old Chinese stuff?
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[LOL]
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 4:22:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 4:27:29 AM EDT
[url=http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/index.html]Here is best site I know of countries equipment etc.[/url]
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 4:51:21 AM EDT
I hope all their equipment works this well. [img]http://www.korea.army.mil/pao/news/Image24.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 9:32:30 AM EDT
Most of their stuff is home-built, reverse-engineered versions of Soviet or Chinese gear. They have done a rather exceptional job of taking someone else's off-the-shelf, proven military sysytem, and cheaply but effectively upgrading it to a more modern standard and to their specific uses. Military equipment is one of their largest exports. Scoff their equipment if you will, but keep in mind that any war in Korea will not be dominated by airpower or armor. It will be about rifles, machine guns and artillery, and the tech level for those to be effective isn't that high.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 9:41:29 AM EDT
No it will be dominated by airpower and armor-and special forces who will find the caves, bunkers and minefields so they can be destroyed by heavy bombers, gunships, and ultimately tanks. Then M1's will come in and individually blast the survivors with 120mm fire from point blank range. The ones on slopes that they can reach will be hit by Apaches firing the AGM-114N Thermobaric Hellfire through their apertures. In fact, FAE's will get quite a workout. They seem to be ideally suited for the Korean terrain. And against the bunkers, caves, and minefields that are so much a part of the Korean defense system.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 3:01:14 PM EDT
I meant pictures of N. Korean troops training, pictures of their encampments, fortified positions etc... They (North Korea) have one of the largest militaries in the world, but have not found many photos of them. Thank you, Jason.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 3:20:17 PM EDT
Gonna have to bring back Hobart's Funnies for those mine fields.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 3:35:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: No it will be dominated by airpower and armor-and special forces who will find the caves, bunkers and minefields so they can be destroyed by heavy bombers, gunships, and ultimately tanks. Then M1's will come in and individually blast the survivors with 120mm fire from point blank range. The ones on slopes that they can reach will be hit by Apaches firing the AGM-114N Thermobaric Hellfire through their apertures. In fact, FAE's will get quite a workout. They seem to be ideally suited for the Korean terrain. And against the bunkers, caves, and minefields that are so much a part of the Korean defense system.
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Where will the airpower come from? Where will the planes fly from? How will the FAE and PGMs get there? What about weather? How many flyable days per year does Korea have? Where can tanks, BFVs and even tracked vehicles manuever in Korea (hint, 8 months of the year, that is mostly roads)? How useful is a tank that can't go anywhere? How many PGMs are in the US arsenal as compared to how many hardened facilities are in NK? The anwers to these questions are simple, actually. Our firepower is too cumbersome to be brought to bear quickly. This is a war that will be won by aggressive Infantry, on foot, supported by artillery. Who has the advantage there?
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 3:53:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2003 3:58:17 PM EDT by byron2112]
Death from above[headbang] We don't fly at night or in bad weather anymore? Think sand storms,oil fires........we don't need "visability" to target things. We have satilites, GPS,J-STARS...ect.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 4:11:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By newbushmaster: I meant pictures of N. Korean troops training, pictures of their encampments, fortified positions etc... They (North Korea) have one of the largest militaries in the world, but have not found many photos of them. Thank you, Jason.
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Give the CIA a buzz, they probably have tons of recon photos to sell ya.[8D]
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 4:27:07 PM EDT
WOW...according to globalsecuritie.org , they have 7,000,000 resrve. That could be some hell of a fight.... [uzi] [rocket]
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 4:33:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2003 4:39:50 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Originally Posted By natez: Where will the airpower come from?
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160 B1/2/52 aircraft with nothing else to do anymore. Plus all our fighters from land bases and carriers.
Where will the planes fly from?
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Korea itself, Japan, Guam, our 7 West Coast aricraft carriers, and the B2's from Missouri.
How will the FAE and PGMs get there?
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See above
What about weather?
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Satellite guided bombs don't care, we found that out in Afghanistan, where the weather is worse than Korea.
How many flyable days per year does Korea have?
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For the bombers, 365 days. Only A-10's are really handicapped by fog or cloud. As long as winds stay below hurricaine force helicopters can fly.
Where can tanks, BFVs and even tracked vehicles manuever in Korea (hint, 8 months of the year, that is mostly roads)?
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I think you have that backward. Korea is usually very hot or very cold. In seasonal changes it gets very wet. We had little difficulty using tanks in 1950-53, and the British Centurions performed better than our Pershings and Shermans did. The worst problem is the very steep hills. The Koreans certanly do not have better AT weapons than Iraq did, and you saw how "well" they were able to stop even a Bradley. North Koreas best chance of stopping our ground forces? Atomic Demolition Mines buried in key access routes. Even then, the odds are that the couple thousand Allied SF operators combing the area will probably find them first.
How useful is a tank that can't go anywhere?
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See above
How many PGMs are in the US arsenal as compared to how many hardened facilities are in NK?
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Considering that any GP bomb becomes a PGM with the addition of the JDAM tailcone. As many as we want to pay for.
The anwers to these questions are simple, actually. Our firepower is too cumbersome to be brought to bear quickly.
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Wrong. Just like the people who said Afganistan would be trouble. Korea is Afghanistan with Sea access. So we can send tanks.
This is a war that will be won by aggressive Infantry, on foot, supported by artillery. Who has the advantage there?
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US. Our infantry can fight 24 hours a day with our superior NVGs. We have the most powerful artillery in the universe in the form of heavy bombers that can loiter over the battlefield 24/7/365 if need be. We are working on right now new bomb racks for all three models of bomber for the new 250 pound JDAM just for the CAS role. B52's are getting laser designators to enable them to self designate Paveway III series bombs. The NKPA has no SAMs we have not encountered before. Our field artillery is also more accurate, more distructive, and more responsive than theirs. They have a range advantage, but since we are leaving the old Cease Fire line to pull our troops out of their artillery range, most of their pre-sighted targets will be empty soon. They have no real modern target acquisition capability, no couterbattery radar, no RPVs. They depend on espionage and long range photograpy-and on us being kind enough to occupy the same positions for exactly 50 years. They can shell the civilians and our empty bases sure, but deployed troops they probably cannot find. I also should of used WE in a collective sense. The ROK has much more infantry than we do. But as they are not so high tech, they will probably be doing the defensive work. US forces will do the counterattacking. Also, there is the very high likelyhood we will be joined by Japan in defending Korea this time. The JASDF would join us almost immediately, adding something like 400 modern fighter/bombers to the combined air forces instantly, and land about a division a week in ground troops.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 4:34:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2003 4:46:37 PM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]
Well, I understand the N.Koreans train almost exactly like the PRC troops. Here is what I took and almost got arrested for while I was in North East China about 50mi from the N. Korean/China border: [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=6722[/img] [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=[/img] I have more but never scanned them. HTH
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 4:37:47 PM EDT
Not only a Soviet style military but a WWII style Soviet military.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 4:46:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2003 5:19:54 PM EDT by Andreuha]
I don't know much about North Korea, but.. Thanks god this isn't china we're dealing with! Over 100 million strong(their military, the chineese) I guess would be more like they send a few million at us to use up much of our ammo, and then send another couple million to finish us off. In any case, Korean military isn't that large, and I just KNOW that our troops would simply annhialate them in any type of traditional combat. Edit: [url]http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/index.html[/url] Good site... Their Navy, and Airforces are jokes. Ground troops aint much better. Nukes will be their only hope. Then again, they can probably fight very well with captured weapons when the French launch a pre-emptive surrender. [;D]
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 4:49:34 PM EDT
GPS munitions only work against fixed targets that you can you can identify. It would be pretty easy to hide a tank or artillery piece in Korea.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 4:56:31 PM EDT
A war against N Korea would be troublesome NOT because of the ferocity of the N Korean military but because of the MASSIVE civilian casualties they would intentionally inflict on South Korea.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 4:56:53 PM EDT
These red bellies are not unmotivated Iraqis, they are fanatic fighters. They will fight to the death until all our ammo is gone. They will not sit and wait to have their asses handed to them. They will attack and attack aggressively. They will over run Seoul in a matter of hours. The question is how long they can keep it. If they dont wipeout the combined forces of the ROKs and US it wont last long. Japan has a constitutional clause that will not allow their troops to be used on foreign soil. I doubt they would supply combatants. They surely would provide support. A Nimitz class carrier probably could make 35-40 knots. But thats a mighty big ocean to cross. It would take several days to reach Korea. Even the carriers on station would not be there right away.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 5:00:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2003 5:09:45 PM EDT by Andreuha]
Originally Posted By RikWriter: A war against N Korea would be troublesome NOT because of the ferocity of the N Korean military but because of the MASSIVE civilian casualties they would intentionally inflict on South Korea.
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I think if anything, our military planners arent THAT stupid. We'd most definatly use S.Korea as out main base like we did with Kuwait in GW2. Russia *might* side with us on this, and let us use parts of siberia for troops. Plus we can really launch an unrestricted air-campaign as parts of alaska are well within range to launch missions.(EDIT: The parts im thinking of are the strink if islands that stretches off into the north pacific from AK)
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 5:07:25 PM EDT
Would definitly have to get rid of the M4's and go back to the m16's and m14's. FIX BAYONETS! [:D]
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 5:15:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2003 5:19:11 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Originally Posted By Mach1: GPS munitions only work against fixed targets that you can you can identify. It would be pretty easy to hide a tank or artillery piece in Korea.
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Not JADAM. Its dropped from aircraft overhead-not shot from a distance like Tomahawk. If we keep aircraft overhead, they will hit ever target radioed up to them by ground troops. Again, nothing we haven't been doing for the past 16 months in Afghanistan. Thats why we sent out so many SF types in both Afghanistan and Iraq, so the delay from detection to destruction is short as possible. Now LGBs and IIR guided munitions are better, cause they can attack moving targets, but they require better weather. The best of all are HellfireII/Brimstone that are millimetric radar guided and are truely all weather-in fact they work better when their targets are moving. But they are the only two weapons of their kind in the world right now. So bad weather would be a handicapp, but we would not be disarmed.
These red bellies are not unmotivated Iraqis, they are fanatic fighters. They will fight to the death until all our ammo is gone.
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Good! Its much easier for us if they DONT hide underground. And I do expect Human Wave attacks at least in the begining. Which will fail miserably and leave the ground carpeted with their dead... ... IF the South Koreans do their part, and their conscript army is not inervated by the same fatalistic pacifism that seems to have swept the civilian population. Though if North Korea attacks the civilians they probably will regain their motivation. Us run out of ammo? Dude this is North Korea- NOT the PRC. They don't have enough people.
Japan has a constitutional clause that will not allow their troops to be used on foreign soil. I doubt they would supply combatants
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Maybe if a liberal/Communist goverment somehow comes to power. But the current administration says that if they find out that North Korea does so much as field WMDs-much less actually attack Korea- it will be considered a threat to Japans national security and that the Self-Defense clause in their constitution does NOT rule out pre-emptive action.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 5:15:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2003 5:18:45 PM EDT by Andreuha]
Well, according to that global security page posted above, their grunts only total about a million (reserves I would assume will be nothing better than the Iraqi 'regulars' we encountered). Maybe no need for bayonets? I think they'll only be marginally better than the 'elite' iraqi troops that we wiped the floors with. In any case, Some more target practice for our boys! Should the bastards even dare use a nuke, all that will remain of them will be a large smoking hole in the dirt.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 5:19:30 PM EDT
I had the pleasure of talking to some USMC CMH winners that fought the Japs in WW2 and the North Koreans next. They said the Japs were pussies compared to the Koreans.That should tell you something.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 5:25:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jm03: I had the pleasure of talking to some USMC CMH winners that fought the Japs in WW2 and the North Koreans next. They said the Japs were pussies compared to the Koreans.That should tell you something.
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Yes, but that was both eides being basically on even grounds, actually, USA a disadvantage. This time, it'll be overwhelming advantages. They've only advanced basically 10 years or so from Korean war. We've actually gone onto other generations of technology.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 5:29:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jm03: I had the pleasure of talking to some USMC CMH winners that fought the Japs in WW2 and the North Koreans next. They said the Japs were pussies compared to the Koreans.That should tell you something.
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Can they be any more brave than the Iraqis and Arab volunteers that charged M1's with AK's and hand grenades? Will the results be any different? Bravery does not kill the enemy nor make you bullet proof. If it did, Polish Lancers would have skewered Hitler on the Reichstag steps in September 39'. The only way North Koreans can-and probably will- gain ground is that the distances are so close and their numbers are so large we won't have the time to kill them all before they get to the Han River. But they wont be able to cross. And in a couple weeks they will have shot their bolt, and be out of both trained soldiers and quite proabaly POL products too. We did this all before in 1951 with James Van Fleet and his "Meatgrinder" against a much more numerous PRC army.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 5:45:14 PM EDT
They will massively pour into a hole in our lines and flood the area. Then they will die. But dont think for one min that our casualties will be like those in Iraq. Thousand of troops and countless civilians will be killed. Many more of them eventually. Yes there is a possiblity of us running out of "bullets". Maybe not .223s but smart bombs and FAEs will be depleted quickly and will take time to resupply.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 3:02:33 AM EDT
The "mobility coordioors" for armor in Korea are open for only a few months a year, when the rice paddies freeze. Much of the other terrain is too rugged for major armor mobility, and the rest is easily choked, either by prefab obstacles, narrow road or large built-up areas. And M1 can't move very well through a rice paddy, and we only have 2 BNs in theater. We also only have 2 mech and leg Infantry BNs in theater. The DMZ troops from the ROKs will be overwhelmed/destroyed at H-Hour, and most of the Americans from CRC to the North will be killed by Artillery in the first hour or so. At a minimum their vehicles won't make it. We have two airbases in the ROK. These, and the ROKs bases will likely be the site of major attacks from SPF troops at H-hour, and their air assets can't be counted on. If the NKs can blackmail the Japanese into denying us combat sorties from our bases there, the nearest help is Alaska. How many sorties do we have to fly and bombs do we have to drop to stop the artillery threat? How many gun tubes do we have to destroy? The ROKs have tough, capable units, but much of the ROK Army is not competent. The DMZ troops will fight. The ROK Marines will fight. The ROK SF Brigades (analgous to our rangers) will fight. The Capitol Mechanized Division will fight. The 1st Separate Armored Brigade will fight. I don't know about the others. The NKs do not use either the Chinese or Soviet military and tactical models. They have their own, suited and adapted for their only mission, which is to invade the South. They have analyzed our strategic and tactical capabilities over the decades, and have built a military force that can capitalize on their strengths (fanatical young men, well-trained, with small arms backed by artillery) and exploit our weaknesses. Anyone who thinks this would be a cakewalk or that our airpower would make much of a difference in the short-term, fails to understand some of the realities in-theater. We dropped more bombs in the first Korean war than we did in World War 2, and that one managed to last three years. If the NKs can grab most of the South before we can bring massive airpower to bear, they can win. They need about a week, and the war will be won by AKs and 152mm arty, which they have in ample quantities, and know how to use.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 6:53:13 AM EDT
Japan will never, if at all possible, permit an aggressive, victorious Communist government to take over all of Korea. No way are the Communists ever going to have that level of access to Japan; the Japanese know what vengeance looks like. They will scrap [b]anything[/b] that keeps them from fighting this. To take S. Korea the NKs will hve to be exposed; if exposed they die. They may take the DMZ; we have answers for that. Airpower will never suffice to occupy NK, y'all saying so are quite correct; but it [b]will[/b] stop their ability to invade; and then they will be vulnerable to an invasion at the time and place of [b]our [/b] choosing. If they invade it will be with overwhelming force; they will not have sufficient reserves to stoip our invasion. [b]BUT[/b], what y'all are forgetting; we won't have to invade. We will castrate and decapitate their army, then stand guard over the other nations while South Korea goes in to persuade their brothers to re-unite under their terms. The invasion of the North, after we kill their army, will look more like Germany re-unifying than Vietnam.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 10:13:03 AM EDT
Korea has only two airfields? Our Air Force, their Air Force, KAL and all other international airlines fly in and out of just TWO airfields? And the they are BOTH in field artillery range of North Korea? And exactly what is North Korea going to do to take out these airfields? They go nuclear-the war will be over by night fall. What else do they got? Antique fighter/bombers and old Ilyushen Beagles? Like THAT is going to get through? Scuds? Can they hit something as small as a airbase? And that is only if they somehow manage to run us out of PAC-2/3 Patriots. If its such poor tank country, why did the NKPA T-34's do so well in 1950? Why didn't this stop our Pershings and British Centurions in 1951-53? Just like in Vietnam the only problem we had with using armor was with the desk jockies that kept denying requests for more tanks because they "knew" that it wasn't good tank country. Crawling at 2mph through rice paddies and up hills in support of infantry is just as much a part of the MBT, and IFVs mission profile as being able to fly at 40mph across country. Its what they were originally designed for back in WWI.
If the NKs can grab most of the South before we can bring massive airpower to bear, they can win. They need about a week, and the war will be won by AKs and 152mm arty, which they have in ample quantities, and know how to use.
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They wont have 5 minutes much less a week. Fighter bombers will be there immediately. Bombers in a few hours. AK's and artillery cannot defeat a modern army with modern air power. Simple as that.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 10:36:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 10:45:36 AM EDT
Too many mountains, too easy to get a roof or rear deck shot on a tank in Korea. the Bradley's chain gun will come in handy, as it has usable elevation
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Substitute the word "buildings" for "mountains" and you have the same thing they said about Baghdad. Why would it be true in Korea just a year or two later? Unless the Koreans can turn up with some modern WESTERN anti-tank weapons they cannot hope to take out a M1.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 11:00:38 AM EDT
The NKs also have WMDs. I dont think anyone has mentioned this yet in this thread and I dont mean nukes. Nerve gas and bio weapons have a good chance of also being utilized. I doubt this will be a cake walk like a lot of you guys think. Its going to get messy and bloody real fast. Not to mention there maybe terror strikes on the US mainland as well. If I was at war with us, I would definitely send some guys into the CONUS and cause trouble.
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 11:15:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 11:18:45 AM EDT
All continue to forget; we don't necessarily have to conquer NK, just remove it's capacity to conquer/attack SK. While getting any necessary vengeance, of course. We can remove their capability to wage war, then allow the SKs to move in and act in a support role. In Iraq we didn't have friendly indigs ready to act, remember?
Link Posted: 6/20/2003 11:24:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2003 11:29:49 AM EDT by IYAOYAS467]
Originally Posted By natez:
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: No it will be dominated by airpower and armor-and special forces who will find the caves, bunkers and minefields so they can be destroyed by heavy bombers, gunships, and ultimately tanks. Then M1's will come in and individually blast the survivors with 120mm fire from point blank range. The ones on slopes that they can reach will be hit by Apaches firing the AGM-114N Thermobaric Hellfire through their apertures. In fact, FAE's will get quite a workout. They seem to be ideally suited for the Korean terrain. And against the bunkers, caves, and minefields that are so much a part of the Korean defense system.
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Where will the airpower come from? Where will the planes fly from? How will the FAE and PGMs get there? What about weather? How many flyable days per year does Korea have? Where can tanks, BFVs and even tracked vehicles manuever in Korea (hint, 8 months of the year, that is mostly roads)? How useful is a tank that can't go anywhere? How many PGMs are in the US arsenal as compared to how many hardened facilities are in NK? The anwers to these questions are simple, actually. Our firepower is too cumbersome to be brought to bear quickly. This is a war that will be won by aggressive Infantry, on foot, supported by artillery. Who has the advantage there?
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I'm prety sure most of the Commanding Generals of the past century would disagree with you. Airpower is key against a conventional force. We can have several carrier battle groups on station and ready to hit North Korea in anywhere from 3-5 days. That quick enough for you? B2's from here in the states and in the UK and B-52's from all over. The avionics in most of our frontline aircraft are state of the art, as are the IR systems and radar capabilites. The weather would have to be pretty bad to keep our aircraft grounded. Not to mention the fact that our pilots are among the finest in the world. I think the world has gotten the message that it is not wise to take on the United States in a conventional war, because they will get their asses handed to them.
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