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Posted: 6/13/2003 1:44:50 AM EDT
[url]http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradentonherald/6077284.htm[/url] MANATEE - A SWAT team member accidentally shot a hole in a Manatee High School wall Tuesday, school officials said. A report from the Manatee County Schools said the Bradenton Police Department's Special Response Team was conducting a drill at Manatee High School around 11 a.m. Tuesday when one of the officers' guns [red]accidentally went off[/red] into a wall in the school. The school's report did not identify the officer. Forrest Branscomb, the Manatee County Schools' risk manager, said police were conducting a "familiarity session" at the high school and that police have conducted other drills at the school in the past. Branscomb said the team was training all morning in the Davis Building and was preparing for more drills after lunch when an officer's gun went off in a hallway. Branscomb said [red]the bullet made a "very small" hole in the wall[/red]. "Fortunately, when the weapon was discharged, there were no folks around," Branscomb said. "There were no students at all present. I believe they waited for this time of year to do this exercise for just that." Maj. J.J. Lewis, spokesman for the Bradenton Police Department, said he could not comment on the incident, though he said nobody was hurt Tuesday. Police officials would not release the officer's name, pending a report of the incident. Lewis said he could also not comment on whether police are conducting an internal investigation into the errant shot. "Shortly there will be a report available," Lewis said. "Whenever there's a situation like this, administratively it has to run its course." Branscomb said the schools are working more closely with law enforcement lately and will likely have more drills in the future. "This is not going to stop us from preparing and doing these drills," he said. [red]"It's just an unfortunate mishap."[/red] Uh... ok [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 1:49:55 AM EDT
Repeat after me... Only cops and the military should have guns... If it was you or I we'd find our asses in jail so fast we wouldn't know what hit us. They'll rib the guy about it and life will go on for them since "it just went off". Unlike us "civilians" who would be accused of malicious intent and piss-poor skills (as well as being "unfit" to own evil weapons to begin with). [pissed]
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 2:03:11 AM EDT
Live bullets in a school huh? We're they planning on shooting dummies at the drill taking place in the school or something????
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 2:11:50 AM EDT
Before any other malinformed dimwits post replies, I should add that these drills are done with simunitions, and are a result of the school shootings. They are done real time, and with simulated bad guys.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 3:11:34 AM EDT
... Tuesday when one of the officers' guns [red]accidentally[/red] went off into a wall in the school....
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[b][red]accidentally[/red][/b] WTF? Need more data! And the general public (uninformed masses) freak out that someone with a ccw may carry on school grounds (umongst other "scary" locations) because if you're not a cop, you go around flashing and drawing your sidearm at all times, shooting anything that moves. and as pointed out, "accident my ass" if it were to happen to anyone other than a leo. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 3:25:34 AM EDT
Our policy states that one can only have an "accidental" discharge if: A mechanical fault in the weapon is responsible or Faulty ammunition All other unitentional discharges are "negligent." Now these kinds of training sessions are fairly routine with most PDs, and shouldn't be surprising. Running a training drill with "hot" weapons seems kind of stupid though, because of exactly what happened in this incident. He ought to get a letter or buy a couple of days. bet he never does that again.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 3:31:08 AM EDT
Enlighten me on simunitions. That's a new term for me. Is that like a light load of some sort? Apparently it was enough to put a hole in a wall. I'd have questions about a live round in a chamber while they're practicing clearing a school.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 3:37:03 AM EDT
Compressed metal powder rounds. The burst into dust on impact.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 3:56:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2003 3:58:20 AM EDT by osprey21]
Originally Posted By Brohawk: Enlighten me on simunitions. That's a new term for me. Is that like a light load of some sort? Apparently it was enough to put a hole in a wall. I'd have questions about a live round in a chamber while they're practicing clearing a school.
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[url=http://www.simunition.com/]simunitions[/url]
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 4:38:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Airwolf: Repeat after me... Only cops and the military should have guns... If it was you or I we'd find our asses in jail so fast we wouldn't know what hit us. They'll rib the guy about it and life will go on for them since "it just went off". Unlike us "civilians" who would be accused of malicious intent and piss-poor skills (as well as being "unfit" to own evil weapons to begin with). [pissed]
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YUP!!! That pretty much sums it up-
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 5:11:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2003 5:11:28 AM EDT by redray]
i just loaded my AR with a full mag and one in the chamber, safety off.... i put it on top of my dinner table and i'm keeping an eye on it, waiting for it to go off. got a cup of coffee and a bagel. [/b][RED]HOW FUCKING LONG IS IT GONNA FUCKING TAKE BEFORE IT FIRES? I DONT HAVE ALL FUCKING DAY!!![/RED][/B]
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 5:29:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ATLGA: Compressed metal powder rounds. The burst into dust on impact.
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Not really. From their catalog: "These patented reduced-energy, non-lethal and non-toxic cartridges leave a detergent-based, water-soluble colour marking compound."
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 5:32:48 AM EDT
still waiting............. second cup of coffee and the other half of the bagel....
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 5:34:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2003 5:36:06 AM EDT by badredfish]
Hey, at the very least, it sounds like he was following some of the four rules of save firearms handling. He must have forgot about the one of keeping the finger out of the trigger guard, but did have it pointed in a safe direction. I guess the wall was somthing that he was willing do destroy. Good job. Badredfish [devil]
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 5:36:22 AM EDT
[b]I should add that these drills are done with simunitions, and are a result of the school shootings. They are done real time, and with simulated bad guys.[/b] so...that was just a "simulated" hole in the wall?
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 5:40:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AZ-K9: Before any other malinformed dimwits post replies,...
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[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:19:35 AM EDT
They are alot like paintballs, but in "normal" calibres. The rounds I have used were soft plastic with what looked like red lipstic inside. They do around 300 - 400 fps and hurt like a biatch, especially when you are getting stitched up by an M4. I wouldn't doubt that one could make it through a single sheet of drywall at close range. We got to use the Hogan's Alley complex at the FBI Academy in Quantico, VA. They also made their simunitions gear available to us. It was an awesome two days of training.
Originally Posted By Brohawk: Enlighten me on simunitions. That's a new term for me. Is that like a light load of some sort? Apparently it was enough to put a hole in a wall. I'd have questions about a live round in a chamber while they're practicing clearing a school.
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Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:26:03 AM EDT
I remember in So. Calif. in some courthouse, a few years ago, a sheriff's deputy's backup Walther accidently discharged while in an ankle rig, according to the news reports. The deputy claimed he accidently banged it against something and it discharged. The news media never did publish a final report of what happened.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:30:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By osprey21: Branscomb said [red]the bullet made a "very small" hole in the wall[/red].
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Must have been one of them post-bans... if it was a pre-ban (hi-cap mag) then the wall would have fallen down.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:36:19 AM EDT
backup Walther accidently discharged while in an ankle rig
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off topic for a sec: I had a cop in one of my college classes who sat behind me. I turned around one day to hand him some papers and he had his legs crossed (ankle on knee) and I noticed his back-up gun holstered on his ankle pointing right at me. I asked him to please not sit like that with his gun on. He got a case of the ass with me, but after explaining myself to him he was pretty cool about it.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:37:21 AM EDT
thank goodness that some kid didnt come barking and snarling teeth at the fine occifers
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:41:39 AM EDT
How's it going, Redray? Anything yet?
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:42:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By redray: i just loaded my AR with a full mag and one in the chamber, safety off.... i put it on top of my dinner table and i'm keeping an eye on it, waiting for it to go off. got a cup of coffee and a bagel. [/b][RED]HOW FUCKING LONG IS IT GONNA FUCKING TAKE BEFORE IT FIRES? I DONT HAVE ALL FUCKING DAY!!![/RED][/B]
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[ROFL2]
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:47:48 AM EDT
Redray, unless you have the LEO ONLY version, it won't work. Sorry...had to take that shot! Scott
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:48:57 AM EDT
why do they have to "cold" train in condition one?
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:57:42 AM EDT
Remember the cop chick who was reholstering her loaded/chambered glock, after passing it around to the children in the school, and it discharched...?
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 8:33:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Energizer: Remember the cop chick who was reholstering her loaded/chambered glock, after passing it around to the children in the school, and it discharched...?
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I bet she and the kids had a lil puker factor workin there. [rofl]
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 12:12:57 PM EDT
Sims are a 9mm proprietary paint round (the actual projectile is probably about .22-.25 in diameter). Duty pistols are converted to shoot these, usually with a replacement barrel incapable of chambering live 9mm rounds and sometimes a feedramp. There are conversion kits available for many 9mm and .40 caliber pistols, and for 1911 series .45s. There are also MP5 kits, and M16/M4/AR kits (9mm upper with a blue barrel, plastic 9mm magazine). There are also .38 rounds usable in most any .38 or .357 revolver, and a shotgun kit that shoots the .38 rounds. The .38 rounds come with chamber inserts that allow the chambering of the sims rounds but prevent live ones from being used. The rounds will not work in an unconverted 9mm weapon. The rounds are supposed to move at about 300 fps. They really move at about 400, and about 600 from long guns. They are packed with many different hues of a soap based paint, which cleans up fairly easily. They hurt like hell. I have been shot with them several THOUSAND times during training (I had to be the bad guy). They teach you to not do things that would get you shot in the real world, and also innoculate folks for the stress of real-world deadly force encounters. They are excellent for training, but expensive. Pistol conversions run from$150-400, long guns around $600. Ammo is $25 for a box of 50. Throat and eye protection is mandatory. Groin protection very highly recommended (trust me). This is only sold to LE agencies and some training facilities because of liability reasons. Any sims training should include many safety checks and shakedowns/inspections for live ammo. No live ammo or unconverted weapons should be allowed in the training area. There is also a CQT training round available from the same company, usable with the special kits. It is compressed metal powder, but can't be safely used in force on force. None of these should penetrate gypsum wallboard. I think that this ND was from a "live" round.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:36:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By natez: Throat and eye protection is mandatory. Groin protection very highly recommended (trust me).
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This is why an accidental discharge with simunitions, is still very dangerous-- especially in a school where there are children. However, did they confirm that a simunition round was actually discharged, or was that just someone's false speculation? Afterall, they said, "the bullet made a very small hole in the wall." Nothing was mentioned about paint.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:49:43 PM EDT
I don't think a simunition round could go through a wall. They did say it was a bullet, and I doubt it would have made the news if it wasn't a live round that went off. Dipshit was probably unloading his live rounds and going w/ simunition rounds when he squeezed it off. I've said it before: I don't trust cops w/ guns [;)]
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:50:46 PM EDT
8 cups of coffee....4 bagels, roasted chicken, some veggies, fried rice and sweet and sour pork for dinner........ [b][size=5][red]NOTHING TO REPORT SO FAR.....[/red] [/SIZE=5][/b]
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:57:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Energizer: Remember the cop chick who was reholstering her loaded/chambered glock, after passing it around to the children in the school, and it discharched...?
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She's the shift sgt., now...
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 9:26:11 PM EDT
A sim round would most likely not go through a wall. I have yet to see one do any damage to anything except for human flesh, my fingernails that have been shot off, and my handheld radio which gets broken every time I go to training. I have seen lots of them fired at walls an glass and have seen no holes afterwards. I bet this was a "live" round and not sims. I do believe that the school was empty when they were training. We never train in an area or building with folks who are not active participants present. That's just common sense (although there is a story in there about a utility crew).
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 10:31:45 PM EDT
Maybe YOUR department is squared away and uses simunitions on drills. Doesn't mean all do. At least one head should roll. How many places do the procedures say to ensure all guns are unloaded? Was anybody assigned to double check? If not why not? (by definition it was needed) Did they actually get a pre-drill briefing? Safety procedures were either in place and not followed or insufficient.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 6:50:53 AM EDT
Hey redray !! Anything to report ? [:D]
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 7:02:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By redray: 8 cups of coffee....4 bagels, roasted chicken, some veggies, fried rice and sweet and sour pork for dinner........ [b][size=5][red]NOTHING TO REPORT SO FAR.....[/red] [/SIZE=5][/b]
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RedRay, I'll take second shift. Send me the rifle. I'm willing to hold on to it for as long as it takes. [:D]
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 7:41:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By redray: 8 cups of coffee....4 bagels, roasted chicken, some veggies, fried rice and sweet and sour pork for dinner........ [b][size=5][red]NOTHING TO REPORT SO FAR.....[/red] [/SIZE=5][/b]
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You have to understand something: it will only fire on its own if you're inside a school or in an otherwise crowded, public location.;)
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 8:15:17 AM EDT
[b]"Fortunately, when the weapon was discharged, there were no folks around," Branscomb said. "There were no students at all present. I believe they waited for this time of year to do this exercise for just that."[/b] Good thinking. But in an emergency situation there [b]will[/b] be "folks" (term for non-LEOs?) around and the stress level will be a lot higher. This particular officer should be handling traffic control.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 8:17:45 AM EDT
[u][b][red][size=5]Day 2 of Self-Firing Weapon Watch[/size=5][/red][/b][/u] As suggested, moving rifle to public playground. Also, for added intensity, I will be bringing my loaded Sig-Sauer. We shall see which one goes off by themselves first!!
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 8:29:18 AM EDT
You can't just leave the guns laying there, you have to carry them around.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 9:54:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PaDanby: Maybe YOUR department is squared away and uses simunitions on drills. Doesn't mean all do. At least one head should roll. How many places do the procedures say to ensure all guns are unloaded? Was anybody assigned to double check? If not why not? (by definition it was needed) Did they actually get a pre-drill briefing? Safety procedures were either in place and not followed or insufficient.
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Simmunitions makes several types of ammo. The ones that were talked about are call "FX marking cartridges". They also make the disintigrating bullets for use in indoor ranges, or "shoot-houses" where fragments of regular bullets could cause real problems. Simmunitions makes conversion kits to fire FX cartridges out of regular weapons. Glock makes their blue guns to fire FX marking cartridges. I believe the FX cartridges are 8mm. So a converted gun, or a dedicated gun for FX cartridges can't fire live rounds. It was supposedly a .40 cal. Glock, firing .40 cal. ammo. For those that don't know, you have to pull the trigger on a Glock to disasemble it. Perhaps he was taking apart his duty weapon to drop in an FX marking cartridge barrel/kit, and forgot to actually clear the chamber.
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