Posted: 9/10/2016 8:37:06 PM EDT
|
Belgian gates and Czech hedgehogs.
I had never seen nor heard of the the Belgian gate. These were all taken out before the landings by UDT teams? edit: The x-shaped Czech obstacles are all over the place. |
|
Quoted:
Me neither. What were the shingles for in this picture? https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/95/47995-004-DF86BA5D.jpg maybe not roofing shingles. "shingle" may refer to some type of protective covering to avoid erosion, like stone rubble. |
|
Quoted:
maybe not roofing shingles. "shingle" may refer to some type of protective covering to avoid erosion, like stone rubble. Quoted:
Quoted:
Me neither. What were the shingles for in this picture? https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/95/47995-004-DF86BA5D.jpg maybe not roofing shingles. "shingle" may refer to some type of protective covering to avoid erosion, like stone rubble. "Shingle", as in "shingle (pebble) beach". From Wiki: "A shingle beach is a beach which is formed of pebbles. These beaches strongly resist erosion by waves. This beach landform is quite common in Western Europe, because the pebbles come from the lines of flint in the chalk. Chesil Bank is an example. When the chalk erodes, the tough flint stays as pebbles." |
|
Quoted: No, you're right. When reconnaissance flights spotted the obstacles the plan became to land at low tide. Quoted: Quoted: My understanding was that we came in at low tide which revealed the obstacles that were designed to foil a high tide invasion. I could be wrong. Of course this increased the distance the troops had to cross under fire.  |
|
http://users.telenet.be/WMF-home/WMF_2008_3.PDF
"Belgian gates" were left over from the Belgian Army's defense in 1940. They made thousands of the obstacles, which are similar in broad concept to hedgehogs. Basically tanks can't push them out of the way. The vertical slats make it more difficult for infantry to pass, too. If you wire a lot of them together you can create an anti-tank fence. In Normandy the Germans used them in single units. |
|
IBB: In Before Bradders!
He's currently motorcycling through Normandy. Check out http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1906454_Wounds_my_heart_with_a_monotonous_languor__Bradders_is_going_on_a_trip.html |
|
Quoted:
Of course this increased the distance the troops had to cross under fire. http://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/13067/43208.JPG Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
My understanding was that we came in at low tide which revealed the obstacles that were designed to foil a high tide invasion. I could be wrong. Of course this increased the distance the troops had to cross under fire. http://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/13067/43208.JPG Thinking about doing that while being raked by MG-42s makes me queasy. |
|
Quoted:
Thinking about doing that while being raked by MG-42s makes me queasy. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
My understanding was that we came in at low tide which revealed the obstacles that were designed to foil a high tide invasion. I could be wrong. Of course this increased the distance the troops had to cross under fire. http://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/13067/43208.JPG Thinking about doing that while being raked by MG-42s makes me queasy. Balls of brass. Brave men. |
|
Quoted:
"Shingle", as in "shingle (pebble) beach". From Wiki: "A shingle beach is a beach which is formed of pebbles. These beaches strongly resist erosion by waves. This beach landform is quite common in Western Europe, because the pebbles come from the lines of flint in the chalk. Chesil Bank is an example. When the chalk erodes, the tough flint stays as pebbles." Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Me neither. What were the shingles for in this picture? https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/95/47995-004-DF86BA5D.jpg maybe not roofing shingles. "shingle" may refer to some type of protective covering to avoid erosion, like stone rubble. "Shingle", as in "shingle (pebble) beach". From Wiki: "A shingle beach is a beach which is formed of pebbles. These beaches strongly resist erosion by waves. This beach landform is quite common in Western Europe, because the pebbles come from the lines of flint in the chalk. Chesil Bank is an example. When the chalk erodes, the tough flint stays as pebbles." Very interesting, guys. I had not heard the word used that way before. However, today I was reading this thread: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1908354_Woman_spends__500_to_save_her_goldfish_s_life_after_it_chokes_on_a_pebble.html&page=1 In it, they use the word "shingle" to mean a small pebble. Emma Marsh bought her goldfish Conquer one year ago for just $12. But when she noticed he was struggling after choking on a piece of shingle in his tank, money became no object in her bid to save his life. The 21-year-old from Kuraby, Australia rushed Conquer to the Brisbane Bird and Exotics Veterinary Service in Greenslopes. “The pebble was about eight or nine millimetres long and was stuck lengthways across the side of his mouth, which is why he couldn’t spit it out. “He was making excessive mouth movements trying to dislodge it … if we did nothing he would have starved to death.” The entire procedure saved Conquer’s life but it left Ms Marsh with a $100 bill for the emergency consultation plus $400 for the anaesthetic and an overnight stay in hospital. |
|
Quoted: My understanding was that we came in at low tide which revealed the obstacles that were designed to foil a high tide invasion. I could be wrong. Partly right. Beach landings are generally made on a rising tide because it allows landing craft that become stuck on the beach to be floated as the tide rises. If landing on a slack tide or falling tide the landing craft will be stuck for hours. (I was a Beach Master/Salvage Officer for a few years) |
|
The plan was:
1. The first wave of infantry would land in front of the obstacles, at low tide, and run past the obstacles. and clear the high ground and kill the German defenders. 2. The engineers would come in about two minutes after to clear the obstacles. They had explosives in rubber rafts and they would wire the obstacles and clear the lanes. They had a couple hours to do this, as at high tide the obstacles would be covered. The engineers did not need to clear the obstacles for teh first wave, they were in a race against the tide to open lanes before high tide rolled in. https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-A-Omaha/charts/USA-A-Omaha-1.jpg If you examine this photo closely, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Into_the_Jaws_of_Death_23-0455M_edit.jpg You will see the infantry in a skirmish line, near the shingle, and a couple of rubber boats of an engineer team. What happened was in some places it worked. In most places it didnt. The second and third waves of infantry, in general, were observing the landings as they came in and if it looked like the first wave in their sector was getting plastered, they shifted and landed in the unprotected parts. They then followed the successful units off the beach, up on the bluffs, and rolled up the Germans from the flanks. If you were in the first wave it was mostly luck, on what happened to you. By the time of high tide there were a couple lanes that were open but most were closed, and the reinforcements piled on in those areas that were open. It is also noteworthy that if you got hit in the first wave, and noone drug you inland, you'd drown. And if you weren't successful the units after you were avoiding your sector, so you had best lay low and hide. In general, the draws, where the roads entered the beaches, were heavily defended and the troops got slaughtered there. The high ground between the draws were less defended and that is where the engineers in general, were more successful. And there was one area in the 1st IDs sector where a brushfire created a lot of smoke and that helped out. The shingle was a natural pile of rocks that marked high tide. It was natural place of cover. In the photo above it looks like a dark line half way up the beach. |
|
Quoted: SNIP And there was one area in the 1st IDs sector where a brushfire created a lot of smoke and that helped out. SNIP Interesting post, thank you. Regarding the smoke from the fire helping, did they not use smoke screens? I don't know why, but this is the first time it's occurred to me. Did they not have the technology or something? I'm pretty sure they had white phosphorous, though maybe not in naval gun projectiles. -K |
|
Quoted:
Interesting post, thank you. Regarding the smoke from the fire helping, did they not use smoke screens? I don't know why, but this is the first time it's occurred to me. Did they not have the technology or something? I'm pretty sure they had white phosphorous, though maybe not in naval gun projectiles. -K Quoted:
Quoted:
SNIP And there was one area in the 1st IDs sector where a brushfire created a lot of smoke and that helped out. SNIP Interesting post, thank you. Regarding the smoke from the fire helping, did they not use smoke screens? I don't know why, but this is the first time it's occurred to me. Did they not have the technology or something? I'm pretty sure they had white phosphorous, though maybe not in naval gun projectiles. -K Nowadays we train with smoke. There was a reference that says they trained with smoke in England it made things much more confusing, so they elected not to use it in Normandy, IMHO that was a big mistake. Also, in the previous landings in the Mediterranean, the US had landed in the dark...like 0300 or 0400 So this was the first time in Europe a landing had been attempted in broad daylight. Smoke would have been a good idea. I visited there a few years ago. There is no cover, no place to hide, and the bunkers and concrete are very well constructed. So landing right before daylight or using lots of smoke to spoil the German aim so they could close would have been good. The brushfire is apparent in the photo above and you can see how it helped. |
|
Quoted: The plan was: ... In general, the draws, where the roads entered the beaches, were heavily defended and the troops got slaughtered there. The high ground between the draws were less defended and that is where the engineers in general, were more successful. And there was one area in the 1st IDs sector where a brushfire created a lot of smoke and that helped out. I think this was the biggest fault of the plan. They wanted the draws because they wanted to get their vehicles off the beach, but they should have taken into account they would be the heavily defended parts as well. |
|
The problems with the plan:
1. The bombers were not ordered to go visual, but in the event of cloud cover dropped through radar, and missed. To be fair, that would have helped some, but against the German pillboxes, not much. 2. A lot of the German AT guns were 50mm, but the high quality 75mms and 88mms had enfilade lanes up and down the beach. 3. The two things the US could have done easily is a) borrow British funny tanks, especially the heavily armored AVREs, and b) use smoke. There would have been small isolated gunfights where US armor could have been impervious to German AT fire, and the longer ranged AT guns couldn't see; and that would have allowed them to neutralize the pillboxes immediately. DD tanks should have been scrapped. 4. Not having US airborne troops behind Omaha to take a whack at some of the artillery positions didn't help. 5. Given the requirement to go in at daylight at the same time as everyone else on the other beaches, and a short bombardment time period, there really is no way naval gunfire and bombers were going to accomplish much. The only way to do it was infantry assault, or perhaps a combined arms attack with a lot of tanks. Going back to the famous "Jaws of Death" photo, from near to far you have: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Into_the_Jaws_of_Death_23-0455M_edit.jpg the photographer the boat he is in the second or third wave going in. Notice by the height of the men they are in 3-4 feet of water but there are no obstacles. the engineers, with their rubber boats full of demo. some obstacles on dry land that have not been cleared, or submerged, but you can see engineers crawling US infantry on the shingle the smokescreen from the brush fire, blowing right to left (west to east) with the wind the bluffs, at that time this photo was taken, held by the Germans. Partially obsucred by smoke. I believe this is Easy Red beach, around 0830-0930. D+ two hours or so. |
|
Quoted:
5. Given the requirement to go in at daylight at the same time as everyone else on the other beaches, and a short bombardment time period, there really is no way naval gunfire and bombers were going to accomplish much. The only way to do it was infantry assault, or perhaps a combined arms attack with a lot of tanks. From my reading of stuff on WW2 invasions mostly in the Pacific and in Korea, shore bombardment in that era is pretty useless anyway until (1) you get guys on the ground with radios who can call it in like artillery or (2) you get destroyers so close to the beach they're almost aground so they can actually see, ID, and shoot directly at targets themselves. (2) gets you DD's that get hit by shore batteries or sunk, as happened on D-day. If you're just throwing shells it seems like you mostly make a lot of noise. |
|
Quoted: The plan was: 1. The first wave of infantry would land in front of the obstacles, at low tide, and run past the obstacles. and clear the high ground and kill the German defenders. 2. The engineers would come in about two minutes after to clear the obstacles. They had explosives in rubber rafts and they would wire the obstacles and clear the lanes. They had a couple hours to do this, as at high tide the obstacles would be covered. The engineers did not need to clear the obstacles for teh first wave, they were in a race against the tide to open lanes before high tide rolled in. https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-A-Omaha/charts/USA-A-Omaha-1.jpg If you examine this photo closely, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Into_the_Jaws_of_Death_23-0455M_edit.jpg You will see the infantry in a skirmish line, near the shingle, and a couple of rubber boats of an engineer team. What happened was in some places it worked. In most places it didnt. The second and third waves of infantry, in general, were observing the landings as they came in and if it looked like the first wave in their sector was getting plastered, they shifted and landed in the unprotected parts. They then followed the successful units off the beach, up on the bluffs, and rolled up the Germans from the flanks. If you were in the first wave it was mostly luck, on what happened to you. By the time of high tide there were a couple lanes that were open but most were closed, and the reinforcements piled on in those areas that were open. It is also noteworthy that if you got hit in the first wave, and noone drug you inland, you'd drown. And if you weren't successful the units after you were avoiding your sector, so you had best lay low and hide. In general, the draws, where the roads entered the beaches, were heavily defended and the troops got slaughtered there. The high ground between the draws were less defended and that is where the engineers in general, were more successful. And there was one area in the 1st IDs sector where a brushfire created a lot of smoke and that helped out. The shingle was a natural pile of rocks that marked high tide. It was natural place of cover. In the photo above it looks like a dark line half way up the beach. I cannot imagine what it would have been like riding in that boat and watching that door drop. Damn, I have chills running up my spine. Words cannot express my gratitude............. |
|
Quoted:
Very interesting, guys. I had not heard the word used that way before. However, today I was reading this thread: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1908354_Woman_spends__500_to_save_her_goldfish_s_life_after_it_chokes_on_a_pebble.html&page=1 In it, they use the word "shingle" to mean a small pebble. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Me neither. What were the shingles for in this picture? https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/95/47995-004-DF86BA5D.jpg maybe not roofing shingles. "shingle" may refer to some type of protective covering to avoid erosion, like stone rubble. "Shingle", as in "shingle (pebble) beach". From Wiki: "A shingle beach is a beach which is formed of pebbles. These beaches strongly resist erosion by waves. This beach landform is quite common in Western Europe, because the pebbles come from the lines of flint in the chalk. Chesil Bank is an example. When the chalk erodes, the tough flint stays as pebbles." Very interesting, guys. I had not heard the word used that way before. However, today I was reading this thread: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1908354_Woman_spends__500_to_save_her_goldfish_s_life_after_it_chokes_on_a_pebble.html&page=1 In it, they use the word "shingle" to mean a small pebble. Emma Marsh bought her goldfish Conquer one year ago for just $12. But when she noticed he was struggling after choking on a piece of shingle in his tank, money became no object in her bid to save his life. The 21-year-old from Kuraby, Australia rushed Conquer to the Brisbane Bird and Exotics Veterinary Service in Greenslopes. “The pebble was about eight or nine millimetres long and was stuck lengthways across the side of his mouth, which is why he couldn’t spit it out. “He was making excessive mouth movements trying to dislodge it … if we did nothing he would have starved to death.” The entire procedure saved Conquer’s life but it left Ms Marsh with a $100 bill for the emergency consultation plus $400 for the anaesthetic and an overnight stay in hospital. I was just guessing at it. good on PigBat for looking it up. |