Posted: 5/26/2003 11:25:52 PM EDT
| Seriously, I just got a Bachelors in Business Administration last year with an emphasis in Marketing. Then I go out and apply to Marketing jobs and all, ALL of them ask for SAS/SQL/Unix for marketing. What the hell did I just blow $36,000 dollars for if it ain't going to get me a job in marketing. Wasn't that my emphasis? Will somebody please tell me what these things are and how quickly can I learn them. I'm a pretty smart guy (especially after a couple of beers), so I learn fast, but somehow, I feel cheated by my education. If someone could inform me of what SQL/SAS/Unix are I would appreciate it. Also, if you also feel cheated by your establishment of higher learning, I'll start another thread. |
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SQL: Server Query Language, used when mining & utilizing databases SAS:[url]http://www.sas.com[/url] Unix: Operating System & language, think of the competition to MS Windows NT technology that caused MS to come up w/ NT. Sure you could buy books from a store or take classes on them, but the best way to learn them is ojt & on the company's dime. HTH. |
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SQL SQL (Structured Query Language) is a standard interactive and programming language for getting information from and updating a database. Although SQL is both an ANSI and an ISO standard, many database products support SQL with proprietary extensions to the standard language. Queries take the form of a command language that lets you select, insert, update, find out the location of data, and so forth. There is also a programming interface. UNIX Pronounced yoo-niks, a popular multi-user, multitasking operating system developed at Bell Labs in the early 1970s. Created by just a handful of programmers, UNIX was designed to be a small, flexible system used exclusively by programmers. Although it has matured considerably over the years, UNIX still betrays its origins by its cryptic command names and its general lack of user-friendliness. This is changing, however, with graphical user interfaces such as MOTIF. UNIX was one of the first operating systems to be written in a high-level programming language, namely C. This meant that it could be installed on virtually any computer for which a C compiler existed. This natural portability combined with its low price made it a popular choice among universities. (It was inexpensive because antitrust regulations prohibited Bell Labs from marketing it as a full-scale product.) Bell Labs distributed the operating system in its source language form, so anyone who obtained a copy could modify and customize it for his own purposes. By the end of the 1970s, dozens of different versions of UNIX were running at various sites. After its breakup in 1982, AT&T began to market UNIX in earnest. It also began the long and difficult process of defining a standard version of UNIX. To date, there are two main dialects of UNIX; one produced by AT&T known as System V and one developed at Berkeley University and known as BSD4.x, x being a number from 1 to 3. Due to its portability, flexibility, and power, UNIX has become the leading operating system for workstations. Historically, it has been less popular in the personal computer market, but the emergence of a new version called Linux is revitalizing UNIX across all platforms. The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing SAS 1. 2. V.E.R.A. -- Virtual Entity of Relevant Acronyms SAS Session Active Screen (IBM) SAS Simulation Automation System SAS Single Attachment Station (FDDI) SAS Statistical Analysis System Unix, operating system....some say it's better than windows. old and stable, usually used on servers. SQL, used for interfacing with databases. [edit]spend all your time collecting info, and someone who actually knows what they're talking about replys before you. |
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Don't worry. Now you know what they are. You can do 4 years of college on either SQL or Unix, and still not have a handle on it. I have been at it 10+ years and there are some things that are still not easy. I think what they question is more geared to is "are you hip with the lingo?". If you can rattle off what KL2001 said (thanks for saving me typing!), or summarize it, they will figure you can "talk the talk". For the jobs you are looking for, you don't really need to know how to program/use/operate any of them, just know what they are. Unix/Linux have become such massive buzzwords (along with Java/Perl/Flash), that I wouldn't be suprised if they would ask you about them when applying at Burger King. [:D] Good Luck! |
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ok, off to bed I go. Have been installing a LAMP server, and just reading those definitions made my head hurt. I need a break. Brass is right, just buzzwords. hours on end of bash commands messes with the mind. I'm not right, especially since I can't get MySQL to work right... one reason to hate Linux/Unix and source. |
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Okay, those answers are great, and I appreciate the help. However, some of them are way over my head. Now I was able to glean a lot from your answers, but try to explain it to me like I'm an 8 year old. Brasspile, You said you have been at this for 10 years and still haven't gotten the feel for it. Is it really that complex and difficult to learn? Or is it like, say playing the piano where there are people who can play chopsticks and say they play the piano and get by while people like my sister who have doctorates in piano? I suppose if I can learn how to play chopsticks, I could bs the rest of the way through it. Anyhow, how long does it take to be able to stumble through it? |
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Right now I have transition compleatly off windows. I am writing this on a unix like computer. You should not need all that much unix knowledge to deal with sql. You should be able to understand very basic sql in an afternoon. A local community college would be the cheapest and easiest way to pickup skills. 1. Sign up for a sql class at a community college. 2. Join a local LuG (linux user group). 3. Get a copy of knoppix and begin to play. |
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Brasspile, Or is it like, say playing the piano where there are people who can play chopsticks and say they play the piano and get by while people like my sister who have doctorates in piano? I think it is like playing the piano. Logging into a a shell, running some basic SQL Queries (Pronounced Sequel), you can learn that in a week. Troubleshooting the server as an admin, doing severe SQL queries (joins on many database tables with groups, sorts, math), well, it is more of an art that a science, hence your piano theory is correct. Learning to use in a functional manner: Harder than Microsoft. Mastering it? A lifetime or two. As I said, when they are asking you about the "Buzzwords", just say you know of them, and do not have any 'expert profiecency', I know lots(100+) sysadmins of unix/database servers that have proficiency, and only a handful that I would call 'masters' or 'artists'. We are talking about only 2 things here. Unix and Databases. Unix covers Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, Linux, Irix, and many more. Fortunately most of the commands are cross-platform, and is a very nice system. It is built on several 'cryptic' commands (referred to as tools), that you connect together to get the output you want. Sample unix command: $ ps -ef | grep sh Gives a list of the running shells on current machines. Databases are systems that run on top of either a UNIX or NT Platform, such as Oracle, Informix, MySQL, Postgress, and others. SQL (Structured Query Language, pronounced "Sequel") is the "language" you use to extract information from the tables stored in the database system. Sample SQL Query: > SELECT PAYEE, SUM(AMOUNT), COUNT(PAYEE) FROM CHECKS GROUP BY PAYEE; Will give you a list of checks and the sum of checks written to each payee from the CHECKS Table in the current database. The "SUM" and "COUNT" are basic SQL commands to perform operations on the data before display. SAS/Crystal Reports/Etc. Are "Nice" SQL Output format tools, which give you pretty looking reports from SQL Database data (such as your utility bill or bank statement). There are many "report" tools (like SAS), but they all basically take the raw data from several tables, and format it to print in a very user friendly way. As I said, being aware of it and being a master is like chopsticks and your sister's piano abilities. When applying for business mgt., all you really need to know are the "Buzzwords" and their general meaning. You then hire us geeks to do the work, by throwing the buzzwords around. [:D] |
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Here's an SQL query, to make you feel better [;)] SELECT (select p.personid from P2PERSON P where (P.JOBID = S.JOBID) AND (P.PERSONID = S.PERSONID) ) as country ,(select p.country from P2PERSON P where (P.JOBID = S.JOBID) AND (P.PERSONID = S.PERSONID) ) as country ,(select p.state from P2PERSON P where (P.JOBID = S.JOBID) AND (P.PERSONID = S.PERSONID) ) as state ,(select p.lastname from P2PERSON P where (P.JOBID = S.JOBID) AND (P.PERSONID = S.PERSONID) ) as lastname ,(select p.firstname from P2PERSON P where (P.JOBID = S.JOBID) AND (P.PERSONID = S.PERSONID) ) as firstname ,(select p.address from P2PERSON P where (P.JOBID = S.JOBID) AND (P.PERSONID = S.PERSONID) ) as address ,(select p.city from P2PERSON P where (P.JOBID = S.JOBID) AND (P.PERSONID = S.PERSONID) ) as city ,(select p.zip from P2PERSON P where (P.JOBID = S.JOBID) AND (P.PERSONID = S.PERSONID) ) as zip ,(select p.phone1 from P2PERSON P where (P.JOBID = S.JOBID) AND (P.PERSONID = S.PERSONID) ) as phone1 ,(select p.phone2 from P2PERSON P where (P.JOBID = S.JOBID) AND (P.PERSONID = S.PERSONID) ) as phone2 ,(select p.phone3 from P2PERSON P where (P.JOBID = S.JOBID) AND (P.PERSONID = S.PERSONID) ) as phone3 ,(select p.phone4 from P2PERSON P where (P.JOBID = S.JOBID) AND (P.PERSONID = S.PERSONID) ) as phone4 ,r.roleab, s.modstamp , (select max(s0.choicestring) from SU5QUESTIONRESPONSE S0 where (S0.JOBID = S.JOBID) AND (S0.RESPONDENTID = S.RESPONDENTID) AND (S0.SURVEYID = 3) AND (S0.QUESTIONAB = 'REFGRADE') ) as REFGRADE , (select max(s1.choicestring) from SU5QUESTIONRESPONSE S1 where (S1.JOBID = S.JOBID) AND (S1.RESPONDENTID = S.RESPONDENTID) AND (S1.SURVEYID = 3) AND (S1.QUESTIONAB = 'REFLEVEL') ) as REFLEVEL , S.RESPONDENTID, S.PERSONID FROM SU2RESPONDENT S, p5rolelg r WHERE (S.JOBID = 80754) AND (S.SURVEYID = 3) AND (r.VOID <> 'X') and (r.jobid = S.JOBID) and (r.PERSONID = S.PERSONID) and (r.ROLEGROUPAB = 'LG') AND (r.ROLEAB in ('RU','RI','RT')) and exists ( select * from SU5QUESTIONRESPONSE ex where (ex.JOBID = S.JOBID) AND (ex.RESPONDENTID = S.RESPONDENTID) AND (ex.SURVEYID = 3) AND (ex.QUESTIONAB = 'PARTIC') and (ex.choicestring = 'YES') ) and (s.Modstamp > cast ('1/28/03' as date)) Order by s.modstamp ________________________________ You'd have to be damn good to write that query yourself, but if you used Crystal or an sas tool, it wouldn't be that tough. Either way, It's far more than Bachelors in Business Administration should be expected to know |
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Actually, I'd recommend against just learning the buzzwords. Know what they are, what they mean but don't try to pull the wool over anyone's eyes with it. If a company is looking for someone with the knowledge, admitting a lack of experience with but an agressive desire to learn is much better than being caught in a falsehood. If you are applying to a position that requires you're knowledge of SAS/SQL and UNIX, odds are that it is more of a statistical analysis position. You should have had one or two classes in stats. Basic SQL can be learned in a few hours as mentioned above. Basic UNIX commands can also be learned in a few hours. The biggie is SAS. (Some companies are moving to S-Plus, another stats package.) This will take a bit to learn, but is fairly easy once you learn it's syntax. Basically, you write "programs" and run them against your data sets. I differ in brassphile's opinion of how SAS is used. We don't use it as a SQL or reporting engine. Instead, we use it the way it was originally designed: to look for means, variance, frequencies and other statistical gems. (Look at Zaphod's post on this thread: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=187858&page=3[/url]) If a position is asking you to know SQL/SAS/Unix, odds are the real requirement is SAS. SAS, while it can be run on a PC, is usually installed on a UNIX server, and you'd need to know how to logon to the server, set your display variables, manipulate the data sets and run SAS against them. SQL would be need to extract datasets from the database so they could be processed by SAS. I could be wrong, but I know the above scenario fits our environment exactly. When our job requisition lists those tools, that is what we need someone to be able to do. As for feeling cheated: Unless your school offers business specialization, you probably were'nt exposed to much more than a semester or two of statistics. My school (USC School of Business) allowed people to specialize in marketing, finance and statistical analysis. As such I, as a marketing focus, only had two semesters of stats. At the same time, my finance roommate only had one semester of marketing while I had eight or nine classes. Go to Barnes and Noble and pick up a copy of SAMS Teach yourself SQL/UNIX in 24 hours. While these are very basic books, they cover what you would need in an entry level position. As for SAS: tell the interviewer you're eager to learn it. After a few hours of playing, you'll probably pick it up. Everyone's experience may vary but, in your position, I doubt these are just "buzzwords." I suspect they will be part of your job, a part that you should be able to pick up very easily. |
| Thanks for all the info guys. At this time, I don't think I'll be taking any sort of classes seeing as how I'll be taking courses in firefighting. I only want to do marketing for as long as it takes me to be a firefighter. I figure I can tolerate that for a couple of years, I just don't feel like investing all that time and money just to leave in a year. But all this info was very helpful, from what I gather, it is simple, yet complex and if they want me to be a master of any of those programs, they are barking up the wrong tree. However, I think that I will invest in a couple of books to learn. |
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You can recognize Unix system administrators and developers by their penchant for wearing Birkenstocks, shorts, and holey T-shirts, and sporting ZZ Top beards. They also tend to wear glasses with 1/2-inch thick lenses and like to spout obscure jokes and anecdotes. Their God is Richard Stallman, an arrogant hippie who hasn't taken a bath since 1968. [;D] You can recognize SQL programmers by their 3-piece suits, shoes in need of polishing, and out-of-style ties tied way too short. Their suit vests tend to be too small, and they always have a few wild hairs sticking up in the back of their oily heads. SAS programmers are alleged to exist, and there is a report one was sighted in a thick forest in Germany. According to eye-witnesses, it was 7 feet tall, completely covered in hair, and had size 18 feet. It appeared to be muttering quotes from Nietzsche while humming "The Ride of the Valkyries." |
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Quoted: You can recognize Unix system administrators and developers by their penchant for wearing Birkenstocks, shorts, and holey T-shirts, and sporting ZZ Top beards. They also tend to wear glasses with 1/2-inch thick lenses and like to spout obscure jokes and anecdotes. Their God is Richard Stallman, an arrogant hippie who hasn't taken a bath since 1968. [;D] " Give me a few years and this is what I will look like, except that do not need vision correction and will never have a beard worth shit. If an alien where to pop his hatch outside my house and ask me to take him to our leader I would take him to meet RMS. chown RMS:RMS / Note this comment was free as in beer |
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One job interview I went into, for being an assitant to a stocker broker, was going really well until their "rainmaker" started asking me questions. She wanted to ok whoever was getting hired. The bitch said that she required who ever she hired to be able to build a relational database. No problem. They taught me that in college computer class. Then she started asking for specific examples of the projects I did in school, if I could link it to Outlook Express, cross reference it with an Excel spreadsheet, blah blah blah. Jesus, I can't remember that stuff. I just winged it and said I suppose that I could, although they didn't have Outlook Express when I learned this stuff. But anything in MS Office suite is not exactly difficult to master. I wondered what this had to do with the job, which normally involves paperwork and answering the phone. Anyway, I didn't get the job, but I met the guy who did, a classmate in one of my business classes. I asked him if he built databases, etc. etc. He said "No, I just do paperwork and answer the phones." He didn't even have his registered representative licenses (and I did). Fucking bitch and her relational databases. |
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Quoted: You can recognize Unix system administrators and developers by their penchant for wearing Birkenstocks, shorts, and holey T-shirts, and sporting ZZ Top beards. They also tend to wear glasses with 1/2-inch thick lenses and like to spout obscure jokes and anecdotes. Their God is Richard Stallman, an arrogant hippie who hasn't taken a bath since 1968. All this time, I thought they wore Doc Martens, khaki pants, denim shirts and listened to ACDC & Metallica. Why the hell should I care about Stallman. What's he done for me lately? [;)] |
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Quoted: You can recognize Unix system administrators and developers by their penchant for wearing Birkenstocks, shorts, and holey T-shirts, and sporting ZZ Top beards. They also tend to wear glasses with 1/2-inch thick lenses and like to spout obscure jokes and anecdotes. Their God is Richard Stallman, an arrogant hippie who hasn't taken a bath since 1968. All this time, I thought they wore Doc Martens, khaki pants, denim shirts and listened to ACDC & Metallica. Why the hell should I care about Stallman. What's he done for me lately? [;)] you're both accurate in your description of this sysad (less the beard). As for the comments regarding Richard Stallman: I'll bite the troll bait. If everyone spoke out for what we believe in as strongly as he does the world be a better place. Browse his web site [url]http://www.stallman.org[/url] before posting negative comments about someone you know little about. IIRC he packs a .45 |
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I have no eye correction, no beard, and rarely wear a suit. Attire is usually khaki or black dockers, a button up shirt, and an attiude people generally refer to as "a bit off"... [):)] To re-emphasize a point, [b]RMS/GNU/FSF is the future, software and knowledge are meant to be free![/b] Companies should be paying the people who know how to [b]use[/b] the software, not the software itself. [red]To NoVaGator:[/red] Congrats on topping my measly example SQL line. [headbang] [red]To YelloBelli[/red]: I threw out an 'overview' for Sewer_Urchin, I didn't think he would be ready for a statistical regression course, so I lumped Crystal Reports and SAS together, and didn't even bring up others for fear of confusing Mr. Urchin. P.S. Next time quote my handle right. [;)] [red]To Meltdown [/red]: To quote Meatloaf, "You took the words right out of my mouth". [^] [red]To Sewer_Urchin [/red]: "Marketing Job" and "Firefighter" are pretty much the same thing. "Database Admin/SysAdmin" and "Firefighter" are EXACTLY the same thing. [:D] Get the books, load up a copy of Linux and a freeware Relational Database (MySQL, Postgress, etc.), $150 and a hard drive partition, you will learn much, and that is worth it. Don't blow the bucks on SAS or CR until you get the basics figured out (and a job that will pay for the software/books/training). Once you have the "Big Picture", and can run it by hand, then go for the easy way. --Edited for Icons and Spelin |
| If you are on an MBA/management type track, then you definitely don't need to know the details of SQL databases or Unix. You'll have geeks working under you to take care of that. The job postings you saw are just dropping buzzwords. (like the many programming job offers that listed "five years Java experience" as a requirement, only three years after Java was released...) |
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Quoted: unix just remember this cd root ls -la rm *.* I always remember this for my friends linux machines: su - rm -Rf / *edit* This was my 150th post. I better slow down, or I'll make some of you look like amateurs. That many posts since Jan 01, I don't want to appear to have no life..... |
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[blue]meltdown:[/blue] Not sure if this was directed at me, but my comment may have been tongue in cheek. Then again, when I was installing Slackware off three floppies I routinely cussed out Torvalds. After all, he addicted me to a monkey that still rides my back. [blue]brasspile:[/blue] I shall strive to never again confuse you with one addicted to spent casings. [;)] I really don't like to use [italic]rm -rf *[/italic]. I think [italic]cd /tmp/knark; make install[/italic] is a much more useful trick to play on your friends. Oh wait, I don't have many friends anymore. [;)] |
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Quoted: As for the comments regarding Richard Stallman: I'll bite the troll bait. If everyone spoke out for what we believe in as strongly as he does the world be a better place. Browse his web site [url]http://www.stallman.org[/url] before posting negative comments about someone you know little about. IIRC he packs a .45 And what makes you think I don't know the prick? Because I consider him to be an eccentric wierdo? I was at M.I.T. in 1971 when he was there and have followed his career gleefully ever since. Oh, and packing a .45 suggests he might have a correct attitude about guns. But I'm surprised he hasn't shot himself in the foot with it. The guy plays a recorder, for Christ's sake. [rolleyes] |
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Quoted: To re-emphasize a point, [b]RMS/GNU/FSF is the future, software and knowledge are meant to be free![/b] Companies should be paying the people who know how to [b]use[/b] the software, not the software itself. I couldn't agree more. Food should be free. Medical insurance should be free. Pussy should be free. Cars should be free. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Did I mention that ar15.com memberships should be free? [rolleyes] |
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Quoted: Quoted: As for the comments regarding Richard Stallman: I'll bite the troll bait. If everyone spoke out for what we believe in as strongly as he does the world be a better place. Browse his web site [url]http://www.stallman.org[/url] before posting negative comments about someone you know little about. IIRC he packs a .45 And what makes you think I don't know the prick? Because I consider him to be an eccentric wierdo? I was at M.I.T. in 1971 when he was there and have followed his career gleefully ever since. Oh, and packing a .45 suggests he might have a correct attitude about guns. But I'm surprised he hasn't shot himself in the foot with it. The guy plays a recorder, for Christ's sake. [rolleyes] Your first description seemed to suggest an offhand, uninformed opinion. Now if you would have called him an eccentric weirdo right from the start it would have been more obvious you knew what you were talking about. [;)]I don't agree with a lot of what he says but he definately speaks out for what he believes in. ar15.com membership is free. |
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Quoted: Quoted: To re-emphasize a point, [b]RMS/GNU/FSF is the future, software and knowledge are meant to be free![/b] Companies should be paying the people who know how to [b]use[/b] the software, not the software itself. I couldn't agree more. Food should be free. Medical insurance should be free. Pussy should be free. Cars should be free. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Did I mention that ar15.com memberships should be free? [rolleyes] AR15 Memberships are free. And if you want to keep it going, you pay to support it, and you get some extra features. Which is how the world _Should_ work. I think you are confusing "Goods", "Services", and "knowledge" Goods, which cost something to manufacture, like cars, can't be free, they cost something to make. It doesn't cost $400 to make a WinXP Pro CD, the whole package costs more like $4, yet Microsoft sells it for $400. Reason Mr. Gates has the money he does. Food should not be free. Somebody had to own land, provide for the 'food' until it was ready to be 'food', then harvest (in a manner of speaking, depending on which kind of 'food' we are talking about...) And distribute this. The person doing this has spent alot on equipment and maintenance making the food available, and should get compensated. Services, my example, a SysAdmin, your example Health care? Free? NO. This goes back to my statement. You are paying for a doctor's knowledge and ability to apply it. Services are what people should be reimbursed for. Another word for "services" is "work". I am only saying that if people have time, and make free software (I am one of them), others follow, and you have a free Server OS that rivals/exceeds other OS's costing thousands of dollars, PLUS hardware. If you have the ability to contribute, and do not, you are haoarding knowledge, and that is wrong. What if the Great Inventors of the early 1900's would have kept all of their ideas to themselves? There wouldn't have been any advances. Lastly, you pay for pussy? [;D] [red] To Yellobelli : [/red] No prob on the name thing, I just seemed to have picked one that is an easy target if you remove/add various letters... [:D]. I'll try not to be so touchy in future. Now that you have stated the 3 disk Slackware, I Understand. Kernel v.0.97.001a [8D] Been there. |
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Quoted: Eric Raymond is another hacker that likes to throw lead: [url]http://www.catb.org/~esr/guns/[/url] Marcus Ranum, the guy who invented application proxy firewalling, also loves guns. The bigger and more over the top, the better. He loves his Barret 95 and Desert Eagle .50. [url]http://www.ranum.com/guns/index.shtml[/url] And the bastard still owes me an NFR t-shirt, though he left the company. On RMS/GNU, I always love it when the GNU folks show up at the technical conferences. One of my favoriute GNU moments was when one of their guys asked Thomas Dolby (She blinded me with science!) during his presentation about making a proprietary audio codec for hi quality music over the internet free. Not only did the entire audience groan, but his response was very funny. "I don't know what your talking about. Why the fuck would I want to make my company's only product free? I've got to make a living just like everyone else! Giving things away doesn't put my kids in college." And if we want to talk free software, I'll take BSD any day. Linux is free as in beer. BSD is free as in beer and free as in speech. Remember the Alamo and God Bless Texas... |
| You are not to far off brasspile, I just interviewed at Primerica selling financial services where I would sell mortgages, financial advice and LIFE INSURANCE. What are you some kind of clairvoyant? And no, I haven't written off marketing, I'll be the A hole on top banging the secretary while the "geeks" doing all the grunt work. [:D] |
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1) You seem to be reading ads for system administration, even if they say 'marketing'... How odd. 2) SQL: 'Structured Query Language'. A programming language for accessing (or 'running queries on', in database parlance) databases. Invented by IBM way back when, it is also used to referr to various database products (notably Microsoft's 'SQL Server') that implement the SQL language for access to their databases, but the most popular/powerfull package (Oracle) is named for a piece of greek mythology, whith no mention of SQL in the name. 3) UNIX: The first major multi-platform operating system, and due to 30+ years of refinement, the best OS for servers and other systems that do not directly interact with non-techinical users. It was developed by AT&T's Bell Labs, with no connection to the 'free software' movement, Mr Stallman, or any similar movement apart from the fact that said groups are big fans of the UNIX method of system design... As the 'universal OS', it has no built-in user interface (Ala Windows), but rather runs the UI as a program (weather this is a command line 'shell' (such as the original, (in)famous UNIX UI - a pound sign and blinking cursor) or a full-blown graphical environment), allowing infinite flexibility with regard to the equipment and purpose of installation. If you think of where MS has been taking Windows lately wrt network accessability (integrating 'terminal services' for remote access, adding further remote admin capabilities, etc...) UNIX has been there since 1990. Where the 'Free Software' and 'Open Source' guys come in is another story. Basically, a few separate groups (most notably Mr Stallman's 'Free Software Foundation', UC Berkley (which in this case, actually -gasp- did something usefull), and a Finn named Linus) decided (at various points in time, and starting on various parts) to re-write their own original re-implementations of UNIX, and release them for free on the internet. Stallman had his (now (in)famous 'software should be free) ideology behind his project, UC Berkley was in on the original UNIX development and eventually did enough of their own work that they no longer needed the AT&T code, and Linus just wanted to see what he could do... The end result is 2 stable, complete UNIX variants that are free to the public, and a 3rd bass-ackwards implementation (Stallman's. His group did the UI before the OS, so they had a lot of neat user programs that ran on other versions of UNIX, but no complete system) that is heavily used by one of the other 2 (Linux, being an OS (kernel) without a UI, uses Stallmans's UI programs (I know, a simplified explanation, but that's what I'm aiming for))... While there are a few 'FSF true believers' in the UNIX community, there are also a wide range of other 'types', from the Solaris/AIX guys who make quite good money supporting systems that literally are worth their weight in gold ($64,000 computers are 'cheap' in this area), to small business guys like me (when I was still self-employed) who are in it for the stability (less POed customers), ease of support (remote access that works), and the price (Free versions are, well FREE. Lower prices or more margin, both are good)... P.S. 'cd /; rm *.*' will not delete anything on most UNIX systems. UNIX does not use file extensions, and there are rarely periods in filenames... *.* is a MS-DOS thing, as MS requires a file extension (even if it's a blank one, the file is still technically named 'MYFILE.'. On UNIX, 'myfile' and 'myfile.' are 2 different files - rm *.* would only erase 'myfile.'.) The correct sequence is cd / rm -rf * And if you somehow get enough access to a system and do that, RUN... Because not all of us in the UNIX world are ZZ-top bearded neo-hippies... P.S. P.S. My personal dislike of MS comes not from adhearance to some neo-socialist attitude towards computer software... I've just worked with their products enough to know better... MS is the Hesse Arms of the computer world... The difference is that MS has allways been brilliant with regard to marketing, which is why they make the money they do (First, computer users have been conditioned into believing that problems are 'normal' so just reboot, and second, by the time you figure out what you bought is crap, they have you convinced that the 'next, latest, greatest' crap will solve your problem, so you buy it)... The fact that their hardware platform of choice (Intel x86) is the 'econo box' of the computer industry doesn't help this either... Microsoft: Proof that some people really can SELL anything... Just as long as they have enough people who will actually buy it... There's no law against consumer ignorance/apathy... |
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Quoted: Quoted: To re-emphasize a point, [b]RMS/GNU/FSF is the future, software and knowledge are meant to be free![/b] Companies should be paying the people who know how to [b]use[/b] the software, not the software itself. I couldn't agree more. Food should be free. Medical insurance should be free. Pussy should be free. Cars should be free. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Did I mention that ar15.com memberships should be free? [rolleyes] Stallman's ideology will never go anywhere, this is obvious... However, the software that his movement produced (some directly, some merely under the licensing terms they advocate) is slowly edging commercial UNIX out of existance (We're down to AIX, Solaris, and Tru64. SCO is gone, HPUX is going... Even AIX's days are numbered, as IBM obviously plans to replace it with Linux (since they are a hardware company, the idea of an OS that they neither develop nor pay license fees for is a windfall)). I could care less about the 'free software' movement, and in fact I find some of the quibbling that it's idealogues spawn quite annoying (!#%!%, just use the best tool for the job, don't argue about the wording of a license agreement that most of us don't read anyhow)... But I can definitely see some of the software that came from it as a big part of 'the future', perticularly when it comes to consolidating the '31 flavors' of UNIX into 'vanilla, chocolate, and twist'... The ideology of the creators is now irrelevant, as long as 'free unix' doesn't grow a mandatory price tag... As for MS, we'll see... Barring a 'flagrant act of creativity', there's not much more they can do to Windows, and the current structure of the company is very adverse to actually developing something new, MS will eventually run out of color changes, add-on programs, and other bolt-ons to re-package as a 'New OS'... |
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Quoted: And if we want to talk free software, I'll take BSD any day. Definitely. I'm running FreeBSD right now; well, actually I'm running a FreeBSD based OS: Mac OS X! [:D] Its Unix made easy. And with Fink and Apple's X11 client, I can run a TON of Unix apps. Its great. And Dave_A, your reasons for disliking MS are dead on, and why I'm using a Mac. |
| FreeBSD on an AMD bases PC is by FAR the best solution. Johnphin and myself run servers of them for a few different domains!!! You can run DNS, SMTP, POP3 IMAP4, FTP, SSH, Telnet (if you choose), Proxy, HTTP, SHTTP and many other services right out the box for free. You don't have to pay for each extra feature like you do with Micro Sh*t. Plus, it's more secure, more stable and they've done a hell of alot to make it a better desktop environment on top of everything else! |
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Quoted: Microsoft: Proof that some people really can SELL anything... Just as long as they have enough people who will actually buy it... There's no law against consumer ignorance/apathy... Not just consumers. For a lot of sys admins and those who recommend OSs and solutions, it was a Godsend to have [i]less[/i] choices. Just as no one ever got fired for recommending IBM, no one ever got fired for recommending MS. |
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Rub any two geeks together and you get flames. [OS flames, UI flames, IDE flames] From: [url]http://www.securityfocus.com/advisories[/url] MDKSA-2003:061 Mandrake : gnupg Published: May 22, 2003 - Updated: May 22, 2003 SSA:2003-141-06a Slackware Linux : quotacheck security fix in rc.M Published: May 22, 2003 - Updated: May 22, 2003 SSA:2003-141-05 Slackware Linux : mod_ssl RSA blinding fixes Published: May 22, 2003 - Updated: May 22, 2003 SSA:2003-141-03 Slackware Linux : glibc XDR overflow fix Published: May 22, 2003 - Updated: May 22, 2003 SSA:2003-141-01 Slackware Linux : EPIC4 security fixes Published: May 22, 2003 - Updated: May 22, 2003 MDKSA-2003:060 Mandrake : LPRng Published: May 21, 2003 - Updated: May 21, 2003 MDKSA-2003:059 Mandrake : lpr Published: May 21, 2003 - Updated: May 21, 2003 CLA-2003:653 Conectiva Linux : bugzilla Published: May 21, 2003 - Updated: May 21, 2003 SSA:2003-141-02 Slackware Linux : BitchX Published: May 21, 2003 - Updated: May 21, 2003 RHSA-2003:175-01 RedHat : Updated gnupg packages fix validation bug Published: May 21, 2003 - Updated: May 21, 2003 TLSA-2003-33 TurboLinux : cups Published: May 20, 2003 - Updated: May 20, 2003 TLSA-2003-32 TurboLinux : DoS vulnerabilities in radiusd-cistron Published: May 20, 2003 - Updated: May 20, 2003 20030502-01-I Silicon Graphics : Security Vulnerabilities in MediaBase Apache and PHP Published: May 19, 2003 - Updated: May 19, 2003 HPSBUX0305-259 Hewlett-Packard : Potential Security Vulnerability in kermit Published: May 19, 2003 - Updated: May 19, 2003 HPSBUX0305-260 Hewlett-Packard : Potential Security Vulnerability in ipcs(1) Published: May 19, 2003 - Updated: May 19, 2003 DSA 306-1 Debian : ircii-pana Published: May 19, 2003 - Updated: May 19, 2003 IMNX-2003-7+-010-01 Immunix : fileutils Published: May 16, 2003 - Updated: May 16, 2003 RHSA-2003:169-01 RedHat : Updated lv packages fix vulnerability Published: May 16, 2003 - Updated: May 16, 2003 OpenPKG-SA-2003.029 OpenPKG : gnupg Published: May 16, 2003 - Updated: May 16, 2003 DSA 305-1 Debian : sendmail Published: May 16, 2003 - Updated: May 16, 2003 DSA 303-1 Debian : mysql Published: May 16, 2003 - Updated: May 16, 2003 DSA 304-1 Debian : lv Published: May 16, 2003 - Updated: May 16, 2003 MDKSA-2003:058-1 Mandrake : cdrecord Published: May 15, 2003 - Updated: May 21, 2003 ESA-20030515-016 EnGarde Secure Linux : gnupg Published: May 15, 2003 - Updated: May 15, 2003 RHSA-2003:174-01 RedHat : Updated tcpdump packages fix privilege dropping error Published: May 15, 2003 - Updated: May 15, 2003 ESA-20030515-015 EnGarde Secure Linux : sudo Published: May 15, 2003 - Updated: May 15, 2003 ESA-20030515-017 EnGarde Secure Linux : kernel Published: May 15, 2003 - Updated: May 15, 2003 MDKSA-2003:057 Mandrake : MySQL Published: May 14, 2003 - Updated: May 14, 2003 MDKSA-2003:056 Mandrake : xinetd Published: May 14, 2003 - Updated: May 14, 2003 20030501-01-I Silicon Graphics : Multiple Security Vulnerabilities in OpenSSL Published: May 14, 2003 - Updated: May 14, 2003 RHSA-2003:172-00 RedHat : Updated 2.4 kernel fixes security vulnerabilities and various bugs Published: May 14, 2003 - Updated: May 14, 2003 CLA-2003:648 Conectiva Linux : evolution Published: May 14, 2003 - Updated: May 14, 2003 CSSA-2003-021.0 Santa Cruz Operation : OpenLinux: mgetty caller ID buffer overflow and spool perm Published: May 13, 2003 - Updated: May 13, 2003 RHSA-2003:160-01 RedHat : Updated xinetd packages fix a denial-of-service attack and other bugs Published: May 13, 2003 - Updated: May 13, 2003 CSSA-2003-020.0 Santa Cruz Operation : OpenLinux: kernel kmod/ptrace root exploit Published: May 12, 2003 - Updated: May 12, 2003 RHSA-2003:002-01 RedHat : Updated KDE packages fix security issues Published: May 12, 2003 - Updated: May 12, 2003 a051203-1 @stake : Apple AirPort Administrative Password Obfuscation Published: May 12, 2003 - Updated: May 12, 2003 MDKSA-2003:055 Mandrake : kopete Published: May 08, 2003 - Updated: May 08, 2003 CLA-2003:643 Conectiva Linux : slocate Published: May 08, 2003 - Updated: May 08, 2003 HPSBUX0305-258 Hewlett-Packard : SSRT3483 Potential Security Vulnerability in wall(1M) command Published: May 07, 2003 - Updated: May 07, 2003 DSA 301-1 Debian : libgtop Published: May 07, 2003 - Updated: May 07, 2003 DSA 302-1 Debian : fuzz Published: May 07, 2003 - Updated: May 07, 2003 MDKSA-2003:054 Mandrake : man Published: May 06, 2003 - Updated: May 06, 2003 MDKSA-2003:053 Mandrake : mgetty Published: May 06, 2003 - Updated: May 06, 2003 CSSA-2003-017.0 Santa Cruz Operation : OpenLinux: Various serious Samba vulnerabilities Published: May 06, 2003 - Updated: May 06, 2003 DSA 299-1 Debian : leksbot Published: May 06, 2003 - Updated: May 06, 2003 DSA 300-1 Debian : balsa Published: May 06, 2003 - Updated: May 06, 2003 CLA-2003:640 Conectiva Linux : Vulnerabilties in cookies and random challenge generations Published: May 05, 2003 - Updated: May 05, 2003 CORE-2003-0303 CORE SDI : Multiple Vulnerabilities in Mirabilis ICQ client Published: May 05, 2003 - Updated: May 05, 2003 CLA-2003:639 Conectiva Linux : Several Kerberos vulnerabilities Published: May 05, 2003 - Updated: May 05, 2003 CSSA-2003-018.0 Santa Cruz Operation : OpenLinux: file command buffer overflow Published: May 02, 2003 - Updated: May 02, 2003 CSSA-2003-017.0 Santa Cruz Operation : OpenLinux: Various serious Samba vulnerabilities Published: May 02, 2003 - Updated: May 02, 2003 RHSA-2003:113-01 RedHat : Updated mod_auth_any packages available Published: May 02, 2003 - Updated: May 02, 2003 200305-01 Gentoo Linux : openssh Published: May 02, 2003 - Updated: May 02, 2003 DSA-298-1 Debian : New EPIC4 packages fix DoS and arbitrary code execution Published: May 02, 2003 - Updated: May 02, 2003 DSA 297-1 Debian : snort Published: May 01, 2003 - Updated: May 01, 2003 RHSA-2003:133-01 RedHat : Updated man packages fix minor vulnerability Published: May 01, 2003 - Updated: May 01, 2003 HPSBUX0304-257 Hewlett-Packard : SSRT3496 Potential Security Vulnerability in rexec Published: Apr 30, 2003 - Updated: Apr 30, 2003 CLA-2003:633 Conectiva Linux : glibc Published: Apr 30, 2003 - Updated: Apr 30, 2003 ESA-20030430-013 EnGarde Secure Linux : snort Published: Apr 30, 2003 - Updated: Apr 30, 2003 ESA-20030430-014 EnGarde Secure Linux : libpcap, tcpdump Published: Apr 30, 2003 - Updated: Apr 30, 2003 CLA-2003:632 Conectiva Linux : apache Published: Apr 30, 2003 - Updated: Apr 30, 2003 20030430 Cisco : Cisco Content Service Switch 11000 Series DNS Negative Cache of Information Denial-of-Service Vulner Published: Apr 30, 2003 - Updated: Apr 30, 2003 CSSA-2003-018.0 Santa Cruz Operation : OpenLinux: file command buffer overflow Published: Apr 30, 2003 - Updated: Apr 30, 2003 CLA-2003:635 Conectiva Linux : balsa Published: Apr 30, 2003 - Updated: Apr 30, 2003 200304-10 Gentoo Linux : balsa Published: Apr 30, 2003 - Updated: Apr 30, 2003 DSA 296-1 Debian : kdebase Published: Apr 30, 2003 - Updated: Apr 30, 2003 DSA 295-1 Debian : pptpd Published: Apr 30, 2003 - Updated: Apr 30, 2003 RHSA-2003:093-02 RedHat : Updated MySQL packages fix vulnerabilities Published: Apr 29, 2003 - Updated: May 02, 2003 Looks like free software gets the "brownware award" this month. |
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Having administered a wide variety of networking OSes (Wfw 3.11 and beyond, Solaris, IRIX, HPUX, AIX, Linux, BSD, Appleshare, OSX), I believe that there is no panacea when it comes to an operating system. Each of the has their strong points and their weak points. Pick the one that works best for you and have fun. As someone mentioned: use the right tool for the job. As such, I work in an environment in which NT, Solaris and Linux all co-habitate easily. If we could, we'd migrate off our Solaris boxes but Linux isn't ready to handle a 12 processor/48 GB RAM hardware solution yet. GPL stuff has a lot of patches each week? Fine by me. Sometimes it's better than waiting three months for a commerical product to release a patch. MS, while the biggest offender, is not the only company to remain silent about known vulnerabilities until they can shift the internal resources to solve the problem. To each his own, use the best tool for the job. Just as I'm not going to grab my grandfather's model 94 when someone breaks into my house, I'm not going to ask my Linux boxes to handle 70+ million transactions a day. At the same time, they both have honored positions/roles in my house. |
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Quoted: You are not to far off brasspile, I just interviewed at Primerica selling financial services where I would sell mortgages, financial advice and LIFE INSURANCE. What are you some kind of clairvoyant? And no, I haven't written off marketing, I'll be the A hole on top banging the secretary while the "geeks" doing all the grunt work. [:D] You might want to take another look at that. My wife looked at "Primerica selling financial services" a few months back, and after a bit of careful scrutiny it was clearly nothing more than a legalized pyramid scheme. Oh, and you "software should be free" fellows: when I become Dictator Extraordinaire I intend to have you all sterilized to help stamp out such ecologically unsound ideas. [;D] |
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Quoted: If we could, we'd migrate off our Solaris boxes but Linux isn't ready to handle a 12 processor/48 GB RAM hardware solution yet. Just wait till 2.6!!! [sarcasm]will that be the 'enhanced and frequent kernel panic option' or the 'standard and even more frequent kernel panic option'?[/sarcasm] |
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Quoted: You might want to take another look at that. My wife looked at "Primerica selling financial services" a few months back, and after a bit of careful scrutiny it was clearly nothing more than a legalized pyramid scheme. I looked at the Primerica thing years ago and ran far away from it. A guy could starve doing that shit. Keep looking. |