RE: Pali vs Israeli land ownership...

The [b]problem[/b] is that various foreign conquests prevented the Palis (er Philistines) and Jews from settling their war back in B.C. time...

So the land is no more one groups than another's...  That would require someone winning the war once and for all, something that has yet to happen.

Since the Israelis were the last ones in control before Rome (and various other foreign powers up through modern times) destroyed the land and drove them out, they have as much claim to a 'right of return' as the Pals do...

Someone has to win the war for there to be peace... Now what are the chances of that???

Thought it would be appropriate to opine here because of this post count for me.

They list the injuries due to 5.56, but how many struck were killed outright?  Where were the lethal hit locations, head, upper torso? And to really stir the shit would 7.62X51 have resulted in more deaths? What about injuries?

I want to talk bullets, not politics.

Careful NME, your bigotry is showing......sigh

Do you know how dumb that sounds bigscrun?  What you have just done in this post is justified every theft and bully in human history.  So here's how it is, if I come and steal your Wifes/Mothers car you would look at the situation and say.."oh well, they wern't strong enuff to keep the car so it wasn't their's to begin with, WTF?????[rolleyes][slap]

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I'm not white,so I've got diplomatic immunity in that department.[}:D]

And a relative of mine was killed by a palestinian terrorist.

So until they cut the shit and get civil, I'll not mourn their dead.

Well said. I totally agree with you there. Our newsmedia, movies, public-school history classes, and misrepresent it as a struggle between religions/people that has been going on for thousands of years. But that is all BS. The entire issue can be summed up like this: One man coming to take over another man's home by force.



Yeah, "terrorists" live/hide there. Just like David Koresh was running a meth lab, manufacturing illegal guns, and keeping children as sex slaves. Ask the Branch Dividians and Palestinians if home demolition is an "act of defense". The Palestinian peoples' everyday life is a SHTF scenario. What would you do in their situation?



You are correct everything has some bias, but you should think about why you naturally accept the Brooklynite(Israeli) point of view and worry about being blown up in a shopping mall, but never mentioned the Palestinian point of view. Due to IDF shoot-to-kill curfews, most Palestinians can't even leave their house, let alone go to the mall or starbucks.

Our worldview is shaped by the information available to us. The thing is, are we getting well rounded information? Quick Example: General Electric (GE) manufactures the engines for military aircraft, and owns NBC. US tax payers give Billions to Israel every year to buy Apaches/F16s, etc, which use the GE engines. It's in NBC/GE's financial interest to ensure that we continue to support Israel with aide. Would Americans still send all that money to Israel if they saw what Israel really does with it?



You make a good point, but if a Palestinian leader rejected a peace plan proposed by our President, would you say the same thing?



Another myth. This current "flareup" was intentionally triggered by Ariel Sharon and 1000+ IDF JBTs when they desecrated Palestinian holy areas, in order to start a ruckus and get the Israelis so scared, they'd vote for him instead of Barak. Nearly a hundred Palestinians were shot and killed (1000s more injured) before the first Israeli was killed in this uprising. Why do we think it's the Palestinians doing all the killing, and Israelis who are "forced to retaliate"?



Good questions. What if, in fact, the bombers attack military targets and not civilians...is this still terrorism? Read this: [URL]http://www.WHTT.org/articles/020504.htm[/URL] and lemme know what you think.



That's fair, why should I get to ask all the questions? [:D]

Events affect us here, for starters because Billions of our taxes are subsidising a foreign country, Israel, while at the same time our economy is crumbling, schools are closing down, layoffs, etc., here at home. Secondly, are we being sent to fight and die in wars on Israel's behalf? I can tell you for a fact that I would give my life to defend America, but are you willing to die for Israel? (Or any other country, for that matter?)



I definitely see a threat in our population's wholesale acceptance of Israel's extremist actions. But, I can't blame our population, because they are conditioned by what they see on the TV. If you bookmark a few [url=http://www.iap.org/][b]alternative news sites[/b][/url](which you should expect to be biased in their own way) and check them daily, you'll see daily reports by western sources, i.e., reuters, ap, upi, etc, of Palestinians being killed and houses demolished daily, but never on your paper's front page, or abcnnbcbsfoxnews' home page. This will go on for weeks, and the Palestinians do NOT retaliate. But then compare that with when there finally is a suicide bombing. There is loss of life in both cases, but we are only shown the suffering of one side. We are never shown the constant violence of the Israeli occupation.



The only thing I concern myself with is what *I* will do, and what my country will do. I can't worry about hypotheticals that have nothing to do with what *I'm* ultimately supposed to do. If we don't take a look at what we're doing in the world, and make sure it's in America's interests, we're only hurting ourselves in the end.

Dude, if you love them so much, move to palestine.

Dude, that was one of the saddest, most un-original posts I've ever read. [;)]

***Cough Cough***

[newbie]

IBYNAGLFT

I don't buy this B.S. for one moment.  I actually consider some of the acts as collective punishment.  However, I want you to wear the other shoe for a moment.  How would you, as an Israeli, handle a situation in which a neighborhood is being used to launch mortar attacks on another town.  Repeated patrols/curfews don't seem to stop the attacks.  What do you do?



Actually, I don't naturally accept the Israeli point of view.  My contention is that suicide bombings are being used to target civilians.  And what would I do if I was under a shoot-to-kill curfew?  I'd stay home.  I'd be sure to pressure my "government" to fix the problem.  I wouldn't be cheering on people who choose to target civilians.  (Yes, I am well aware the civilians on both sides are being hurt intentionally.  Like I said, it's a cluster which isn't going to be resolved by current methods.)



I know I am.  Then again, I have a friend who runs another site and he pulls stories from about twenty different alternative sources:  from both sides.  People are always quick to pull out the press articles which show how "evil" the Americans and Israeli's are.  Why is it that people rarely look towards some of the Israeli news outlets?  Is it because they have to be wrong because they are Israeli?  Sometimes they are even more damning to their own cause (in my eyes) than the arab press.



Show me a Palestinian leader who has actively accepted any peace plan that acknowledged the existence of a Jewish state?  Abbas seems generally interested (Sharon might be as well seeing as how he, for the first time, used the word occupation in reference to Israeli presence in the GS and WB.) in trying to solve the problem.  I do not think that Arafat was ever interested in true side-by-side harmonic peace.  And that is a problem:  the Palestinians, in my opinion, have not had solid leadership in the past.



Maybe, I wasn't paying that much attention at the time.  Hell, it's only a cursory issue for me at times.  However, I don't remember the armed incursions you are talking about.  I do rember Sharon visiting a site that was Holy to both religions.  I do remember thinking at the time that it wasn't a prudent decision.

 Interesting read.  Also interesting is that you cited from it verbatim. However, like I said, everything is biased.  If you want, I can go find an article that refutes the claim, probably pulling a valuable quotation from it as well.  

I don't fool myself and ignore the fact that both sides are committing acts of violence aimed at the wrong parties.  Women and children are being targeted (purposely or not doesn't really matter) by both sides.  Many of my arguments my seem pro-Israeli, but that's mainly because all of yours seem pro-Palestinian.  What's the point of debate if both people agree?



Are we?  I don't think that any of the military actions we've been engaged in over the last decade have been on behalf of Israel.  Some of them may benefit Israel, but I don't see us fighting purely for them.  After all, American interests represent a vast hydra much to complex for a simple peasant like myself to comprehend all of.



Nope, I wouldn't.  However, the difference is in how we view our roles.  I won't go fight a war for someone else because they ask me to.  However, I will do so if the President of the United States or Congress ask me to do so.  After all, they are (whether I like them or not), my dully elected representatives.  They may not be better qualified than me to run the country, but that is their job, not mine.  This doesn't mean that I'm going to label joe-foreigner an infidel and look to do him harm by any means necessary just because someone stands in a square or on a television and tells me to.  (Sound familiar?)  If asked, I will do my part.  If I truly have issues surrounding the reasons I'm being asked to serve I'll request either CO status or ask for a transfer to a medical group.  I'll still serve, just perhaps not in a front-line combatant capacity.  Would you? Or would you ask to "sit this one out" because you don't agree with it.



I think this is where we differ the most.  While I am definitely concerned with what I do, I am also concerned with what others might do.  After all, if we're not worried about the consequences, than what does it matter what we do, as individuals or a nation.  The only thing that keeps my local bank from being robbed on a daily basis is the fact that "they" might shoot me during the commission or "they" will probably put me in jail.  Actions/Consequences is very important to me.  

However, I am more concerned with what happens locally at the moment.  I'm not worried that my mall is going to be blown up.  I am worried that people are beginning to get the impression that the end does justify the means.   Don't like how a country is treating your people?  Go bomb a nightclub, embassy, airport, cafe, place of business.  Don't like the fact that people pick on you?  Take a gun to school and pull the fire alarm.

I also have an issue with the fact that I am an "evil American dog" whose death would be cheered by many.  Even though I've never been to the Middle East nor done anything to hurt them as a people.  (Yes, I know that the shoe fits the other foot as well.  However, it is much easier for a Palestinian to travel to the US peacefully than it would be for me to do so.  I'd like to visit Jeruselum and see the birthplace of Jesus.  I'm just not sure it will ever be safe for me to do so, solely because my nationality makes me a target.)

Anyways, I think we've both made the other pause and think.  I know head off for other topics which make interest me more today:  .458Socom, suppressors, RDIAS and the evil black gun.

For the record how the FUCK are settlers civvies? Or smart in the least?

What kind of dumbass would move to Hebron, steal someones land and not evict their ass way far away and not expect to get shot at.

I feel no pity for the settlers that are in effect garrisoning towns.

This is a good discription of the Israeli "settlements":
[URL]http://www.yellowtimes.org/print.php?sid=1354[/URL]

For detailed data on settlements, see the Israeli human rights organization, B'Tselem:
[URL]http://www.btselem.org/Download/Land_Grab_Eng.pdf[/URL]

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OMG.  I truely hope you are joking about that "the 5.56 was meant to wound" bullshit.

[url]www.ammo-oracle.com[/url]

Wow, I never thought my thread would last this long.
[^]

Call 911!?!

Or maybe an airstrike.

I certainly wouldn't bring a rock to a gunfight.

Or a bottle of gas to a tank battle.

Unless I just HAD to be a martyr.

I mean, peer pressure and all.

Everyone is doing it.

'Course I wouldn't live in a war zone either.

Bad for the property values.

Oh and the HIV/AIDS/Hepatitis thing doesn't really sound kosher. I think scientific evidence shows that Sherm is probably right.

However, the warfarin/rat poison/coumadin thing does.

Me neither. [:D]

I just wonder where all the usual "Israel firsters" are, and how they'll justify killing Christian Palestinians and demolishing Christians' homes.

This thread is getting quite a few reads, but people are shy to post, I guess.

I'm all for bombing the Israeli terrorists. End the Jewish occupation. We got hit on 9/11 for caving into THEIR spending splurge.

I also can't stand how we're being yanked around by the media, also controlled by the Jewish interest. Don't think for a moment that Israel cares the least about America. Israel is yanking us around for our money, and will keep on doing so as long as they can. Their occupation, their costs. Screw 'em.

and dammit, I want my tax money to be spent on America, not some shithole in the desert that makes us attack magnets. I don't work and pay money to the government to feed some insane crusade. I do it so that kids in this country get educated, my roads get repaired, and so that I can at least dream about social security helping with my retirement.

We're sending $2 BILLION a year off to a foreign country when we could use it right at home. That's bullshit.

[url=]http://www.geocities.com/enough_net/[/url]

There's a whole generation of terrorist children being raised in the "Palestinian" areas.  Sadly, neither the Israelis, or the US, has seen anything yet.

Israel needs to quit focusing on "security" and return to the position that they have a right to the land.  Push the Palles into Jordan where they belong.

So what do the Palis use as field dressings after getting popped with a 5.56?
A [b]GAZA STRIP[/b]!!

Why can't the Jews live peacefully with the Palestinians (a.k.a. Arab Christians and Muslims), like they did before the state of "Israel" was established in 1948?

DevilsAdvocate?  Is that really [b]you[/b] starting all of these arguements?

Whatever dude.

[}:D]?

This isn't DA, and I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm tryin to end one. I'm advocating something that all your misinformation and preconceived notions have never allowed you to grasp. I'm asking simple questions which shatter myths and, hopefully, lead you to look at this in a whole new light. The contradictions in your beliefs and understanding of this issue are glaring, you just need someone to point them out.

What I'm saying is different, I know. But you needn't fear it. This topic shouldn't be something you're afraid to talk about. If so, who are you afraid of? Is this topic the one taboo here at AR15.Com? You can talk about anything in the world, but this is the one sacred issue, that no one dares contradict or challenge. Who/what is looming over you that you feel threatened to speak your mind? What does that tell you about your freedom?

Can ANYONE at AR15.Com answer any of the questions I've posed? Or, are you all content to let this thread die, go back to sleep, and continue being sheep?

You do not get it dude. At ar15.com we join enjoy a monthly knock out drag out fight about:
Religion
Abortion
Israel

We are all content to let the thread die as we will fight it all over again later.

I just don't see the reason for the hesitation on allowing the Palestinians to form a State (National identity/territory)of thier own. Its a win/win situation. If peace is the result, then great, it worked.  If the terrorism continues, then...  It is easier to declare war on another nation than shoot people who are part of your own population.  If giving them what they want doesn't resolve the conflict the Israelis can: declare war, kill them(Palestinians)off, take thier land, and go there for vacation.
Dogma

ps Yeah I know, that last part is a song or something.

May be a little off topic but loosely related.  Why don't the Israelis develop a rock booby trap?  Scatter them all along the routes in and out of the "Occupied Territories" and see what happens.  I seem to recall the Soviets tried a similar approach with toys in Afghanistan.  Just an idea.

I think you missed the definitive thread killer.

Good suggestion, but I don't know if that would work. The thing is, everytime they demolish someone's home (Christian Palestinians included), there's a fresh pile of real rocks for someone to use.



Yup, and do you recall who the 'bad guys' were in that scenario?



[shock]