User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:14:45 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You son couldn't hack it. Many others could. No. Never served, but this. "Not everyone gets a trophy" comes to mind. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:15:52 PM EDT
[#2]
Sorry for his son's death but Seals train hard and weed out the quitters. They have no need for them. They should not change training.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:16:15 PM EDT
[#3]
There's actually a decent number of attempted suicides after people quit. N
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:17:59 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I didn't know they had Parent's Weekend at seal school. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:19:18 PM EDT
[#5]
24 hold sounds like a good idea. Have them talk to a psychologist within that time period.
Sounds like the other complaint is that they fail and have to sit at the base doing menial tasks until they out-process. Sorry...but that is how the military works when it comes to failures. It takes time. Navy said this is the first time this has happened so in my opinion it really isn't something to get worked up about. The kid obviously had some demons/issues that were exacerbated with fatigue and the stress of the training. He might not have killed himself with the 24 hold...but he then again it might not have made a difference. If this was a more common occurrence it might throw up red flags but it sounds like it isn't. Don't attempt something that has a high chance of failure if you aren't prepared for what happens when you don't make it. "I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."- Michael Jordan |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:20:15 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There's actually a decent number of attempted suicides after people quit. N Do you have anything to back that up? |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:21:38 PM EDT
[#7]
How many have DOR'ed and then DOR'ed again....
How many thousands just went about their lives and finished their enlistments? How many got injured before even making to BUD/s that finished up their time honorably? Michael Monsoor was a repeat... |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:23:28 PM EDT
[#8]
2 guys that were in my class with did. Anecdotal evidence at best. I don't think the Navy publishes numbers on attempted suicides after BUDS.
Depression hits quite a few as well for those that quit. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:23:44 PM EDT
[#9]
The training didn't kill his son, depression did
Sorry, but don't blame the training |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:24:41 PM EDT
[#10]
I have watched the BUDS shows on several occasions. Once of the themes throughout is that while the training is extremely
difficult physically and mentally they keep a constant eye on each looking for signs that a trainee does not go into the danger zone. So it would seem like common sense that they would have a decompression period for those that DOR so they could keep an eye on them to avoid such breakdowns. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:25:25 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Reading the title, I had assumed he died during training. Hurt feelings/depression/disappointment because of failure is no reason to lower standards.  This. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:25:36 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Reading the title, I had assumed he died during training. Hurt feelings/depression/disappointment because of failure is no reason to lower standards. Exactly what I expected as well. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:26:20 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have watched the BUDS shows on several occasions. Once of the themes throughout is that while the training is extremely difficult physically and mentally they keep a constant eye on each looking for signs that a trainee does not go into the danger zone. So it would seem like common sense that they would have a decompression period for those that DOR so they could keep an eye on them to avoid such breakdowns. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:30:43 PM EDT
[#14]
You know I really hate to say this but could this be the product of his generation all being winners and never losing or keeping score? I mean shit it sounds like he was doing well and for some reason he quit. He could build on what he had been through and gave it another try in the future? Seems like a stupid ass reason to kill yourself, life goes on.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:34:01 PM EDT
[#15]
/edit.
Nvm |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:35:14 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It isn't the harshness of the training, but rather changing how those who fail are handled. You didn't read for comprehension. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It's awful that his son committed suicide, and I don't doubt that the stress of training was likely a large factor. but the training has to be that hard, and I don't see any way around it if you want to be a truly elite unit. It isn't the harshness of the training, but rather changing how those who fail are handled. You didn't read for comprehension. which is actually a good and responsible thing to do... |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:35:58 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not seeing anything in the article about changing the training. Some of you guys are being pretty cold bastards. They changes the dad is looking for and it looks like the Navy is going with, is a set cooling off period and monitoring for those that drop out. Frankly it really does make sense. They are taking these guys and ramping them up to the breaking point. They deserve and have certainly earned a controlled path back to normal. Frankly the Navy does the same thing with people that drop out of the Nuke program. One day they are busting their ass in class with the same people they have been working with for months, and the next they have you cleaning toilets in the same buildings while those friends walk by. It's pretty fucked up. It's a prime situation for people to have a mental break. There is no reason that we can't be smarter about how we manage our sailors and soldiers when they come out of stressful situations. Agreed |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:36:24 PM EDT
[#18]
His dad is likely partly to blame. Change the parameters so everyone gets in? He seems to have the "Everybody gets a trophy" mind set, and likely raised the son with it as well. The son did not learn that failure is always possible, nor how to deal with it. When reality smacked the kid in the face, he didn't have the tools to deal with failure and concluded it meant HE was a failure and that must mean it's the end.
Edit; Beat by Calicontractor |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:37:18 PM EDT
[#19]
Sorry for your loss but fuck no.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:38:14 PM EDT
[#20]
Want to know a crazy fact. more guys check out at the end of a tour or deployment than the beginning of one,,,,,, and It's about going home to face a problem
super dad was this kids problem . Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree. There should be a 24-48 hour med hold on dropouts for evaluation. Dropouts during hell week are under tons of stress and sleep depravation. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
can you guys not fucking read? they want to change what they do with the guys who drop out, not make changes to the seal training itself they want the dropouts to be watched for a day in case they are so wrung out and exhausted that they so something crazy If that young guy had somebody with him for the day after he dropped, he probably would have got some rest and got his bearings the guy was apparently practically in a cataleptic state of despair and exhaustion I agree. There should be a 24-48 hour med hold on dropouts for evaluation. Dropouts during hell week are under tons of stress and sleep depravation. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:39:17 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
can you guys not fucking read? they want to change what they do with the guys who drop out, not make changes to the seal training itself they want the dropouts to be watched for a day in case they are so wrung out and exhausted that they so something crazy If that young guy had somebody with him for the day after he dropped, he probably would have got some rest and got his bearings the guy was apparently practically in a cataleptic state of despair and exhaustion No, that's how the watering down of training starts. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:39:28 PM EDT
[#22]
that sucks. no shame for dropping out of that, at least not walk off a balcony shame.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:42:33 PM EDT
[#23]
This guy was going to do this either way. No little decompression period was going to stop him at all.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:43:22 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It was his choice to ring the bell, they didn't make him. It was his choice to end his life, they didn't make him. It was your choice to read the article and educate yourself before commenting, but you didn't. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/10/2016 11:58:46 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I saw your Avatar. There was a thread about how Seals had a very hard time completing Ranger School Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You son couldn't hack it. Many others could. No. I saw your Avatar. There was a thread about how Seals had a very hard time completing Ranger School Class 10-96.....a loud roar was heard the day a SEAL quit during the last day of hell week. It's not that we hated him....its just that he shit talked what a cake walk it would be. Quit 5 days in. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 12:02:16 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: can you guys not fucking read? they want to change what they do with the guys who drop out, not make changes to the seal training itself they want the dropouts to be watched for a day in case they are so wrung out and exhausted that they so something crazy If that young guy had somebody with him for the day after he dropped, he probably would have got some rest and got his bearings the guy was apparently practically in a cataleptic state of despair and exhaustion I'm also sure that there has never been a suicide by any trainee since the programs inception. I can say that because it was stated in the article. But, since one out of thousands had a problem, that resulted in his death, the program is somehow at fault, and a safety net needs to be set-up? I'm sorry for the loss of life and what the family is going through, but thousands upon thousands have done so before him and not a single one took the path that he did. Maybe the fault lies with him and not the program? |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 12:02:45 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Reading the title, I had assumed he died during training. Hurt feelings/depression/disappointment because of failure is no reason to lower standards. Par for the course for the OP. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 12:11:02 AM EDT
[#28]
It was his inability to accept his own failure, that contributed to his death.
In truth, he was not a worthy candidate. Taking his own life proves that. Sad, but true. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 12:18:33 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You son couldn't hack it. Many others could. No. Bam. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 12:26:19 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hate to sound like a dick, but with a super involved helo dad, I wonder if this is the first thing this guy failed at that his parents couldn't protect him from. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Lets see: Rugby Player Jock Super motivated Emphasis on physical readiness Spend years getting ready Helicopter Dad. Sadly he fit the profile of the ones that are most likely to wash out. It's the normal looking, quiet ones that excel in SEAL training. TYCOM Hate to sound like a dick, but with a super involved helo dad, I wonder if this is the first thing this guy failed at that his parents couldn't protect him from. It was, he didn't get the trophy so he decided to go all in I saw it when I worked at the Army EOD School. Kids would fail a block of instructions and self refer themselves into Behavioral Health claiming suicidal thoughts, others would spend days crying and saying they wanted to go home instead of being reassigned another MOS. We always hated test day cause we knew we'd be busy |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 12:46:10 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm sure most here can. I'm also sure that there has never been a suicide by any trainee since the programs inception. I can say that because it was stated in the article. But, since one out of thousands had a problem, that resulted in his death, the program is somehow at fault, and a safety net needs to be set-up? I'm sorry for the loss of life and what the family is going through, but thousands upon thousands have done so before him and not a single one took the path that he did. Maybe the fault lies with him and not the program? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
can you guys not fucking read? they want to change what they do with the guys who drop out, not make changes to the seal training itself they want the dropouts to be watched for a day in case they are so wrung out and exhausted that they so something crazy If that young guy had somebody with him for the day after he dropped, he probably would have got some rest and got his bearings the guy was apparently practically in a cataleptic state of despair and exhaustion I'm also sure that there has never been a suicide by any trainee since the programs inception. I can say that because it was stated in the article. But, since one out of thousands had a problem, that resulted in his death, the program is somehow at fault, and a safety net needs to be set-up? I'm sorry for the loss of life and what the family is going through, but thousands upon thousands have done so before him and not a single one took the path that he did. Maybe the fault lies with him and not the program? come on It's glaringly obvious that 90% of the posters to this thread either did not read the article or didn't understand it. they're not coming anywhere near close to addressing the ideas presented in the article not even close most of them think the article is about reducing the training standards the article is about having a dropout be placed under observation for a day so they can be sure the guy has some sleep and food and is operating at nominal brain function that idea is perfectly reasonable and would not affect seal training at all |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 12:47:14 AM EDT
[#32]
Not only did half of the people posting in this thread NOT read the article, they can't bother to even read the other posts.
Do you guys want another Obama? Because this is how we get another Obama. Reading is for faggots. Attention spans of hamsters... |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 12:47:41 AM EDT
[#33]
I'd almost bet he was the type who bragged to everyone that he was going to be a SEAL, and his dad pushed him to do it (like a dance mom)
It would be hard for me to face anyone if I dropped out, too. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 12:48:38 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 24 hold sounds like a good idea. Have them talk to a psychologist within that time period. Sounds like the other complaint is that they fail and have to sit at the base doing menial tasks until they out-process. Sorry...but that is how the military works when it comes to failures. It takes time. Navy said this is the first time this has happened so in my opinion it really isn't something to get worked up about. The kid obviously had some demons/issues that were exacerbated with fatigue and the stress of the training. He might not have killed himself with the 24 hold...but he then again it might not have made a difference. If this was a more common occurrence it might throw up red flags but it sounds like it isn't. Don't attempt something that has a high chance of failure if you aren't prepared for what happens when you don't make it. "I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."- Michael Jordan Yep. I have an autobiography of Roy Boehm, founder of the Navy Seals. There is one very relevant quote by him, "It's never the front of the pack or the gazelles that make it through training. It's the bastards in the back that keep trudging through the shit that make it." |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 12:58:35 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It was, he didn't get the trophy so he decided to go all in I saw it when I worked at the Army EOD School. Kids would fail a block of instructions and self refer themselves into Behavioral Health claiming suicidal thoughts, others would spend days crying and saying they wanted to go home instead of being reassigned another MOS. We always hated test day cause we knew we'd be busy Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Lets see: Rugby Player Jock Super motivated Emphasis on physical readiness Spend years getting ready Helicopter Dad. Sadly he fit the profile of the ones that are most likely to wash out. It's the normal looking, quiet ones that excel in SEAL training. TYCOM Hate to sound like a dick, but with a super involved helo dad, I wonder if this is the first thing this guy failed at that his parents couldn't protect him from. It was, he didn't get the trophy so he decided to go all in I saw it when I worked at the Army EOD School. Kids would fail a block of instructions and self refer themselves into Behavioral Health claiming suicidal thoughts, others would spend days crying and saying they wanted to go home instead of being reassigned another MOS. We always hated test day cause we knew we'd be busy Isn't their a quote somewhere by someone about character being built when things don't go how you plan, yada yada yada... Kids need to grow the fuck up... |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 1:01:47 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's awful that his son committed suicide, and I don't doubt that the stress of training was likely a large factor. but the training has to be that hard, and I don't see any way around it if you want to be a truly elite unit. Agreed. Maybe some sort of supervised "decompression time" ain't such a bad idea. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 1:06:14 AM EDT
[#37]
No. They should not changing because a kid could not take failure and killed himself. R.I.P
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 1:07:48 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tragic....but no. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 1:12:14 AM EDT
[#39]
Or...
And hear me out here... People need to grow up... Shit. Are we suppose to start holding hands and hugging every time someone fails out of a fucking combat unit. Before the run portion of the screening test in Little Creek BM1 Norton would give a speech. "This is an active road, if you get hit and killed that is call natural selection." Feel for the dad, that's got to be unbearable but that's not the Navy's problem. As motherly as the military is, you are still expected to act as an adult. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 1:16:04 AM EDT
[#40]
Sorry...did not read, but read the comments and now understand. I can see some decompression time thrown into the program. Not sure if it's the brits or the frogs, but there's a program in place where anyone coming back from a combat zone goes thru a decompression period of about a week or ten days, and is said to reduce onset of PTSD, and other issues vs in the shit Tuesday, youre done and Thursday you're sitting in a Starbucks hoping that car that just double parked with the dude running in for his latte is not going to detonate
Edit...found one program The U.K. also sends its troops to Cyprus after deployment to “decompress” for a day or two. The program was so successful it became standard British practice, and other countries, including Canada, have copied it. One to four days of R&R on a Mediterranean island with members of the same fighting unit apparently helps veterans come home with an easier mind. Maybe that’s no surprise. “Third Location Decompression” has become a popular phrase in PTSD treatment outside the U.S. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 1:18:08 AM EDT
[#41]
Tandem reflective belts would have saved his life, we can call it the buddy belt, never be alone.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 1:26:38 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Reading the title, I had assumed he died during training. Hurt feelings/depression/disappointment because of failure is no reason to lower standards. This, 187%. It's supposed to be hard. Lots of guys wash out, and there's really no shame in that. But he did it to himself - it's all on him and him alone. ETA - "Aftercare"???  How about "Take a week of leave before reporting to your ship. Welcome to the Surface Navy."
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 1:31:39 AM EDT
[#43]
They try (and succeed) to break these guys down. Like the article mentioned, many of these guys define themselves solely by their position in the military. Just because he wasn't quite good enough, on that one day, to pass portions of a hardcore physical test after massive sleep deprivation (to the point where you or I (or the generals) wouldn't even be able to tie our shoes) - the benefits of which said tests are arguable - they should still be highly regarded and praised and given accolades, etc. They are still total badasses. Remember the movie "On Any Given Sunday" ? Even the greatest sports team in the fucking world, with the greatest records of all time, and all the greatest players, can still lose - on any given Sunday. These guys that "drop out" at that one point in time, are still incredible men. And the fucking drill sergeants and other officers should treat them as such. What a fucking waste and a terrible tragedy. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 1:32:19 AM EDT
[#44]
Kind of related. I was just in San Diego. We took a trip to Coronado. We passed by the O-Course. That thing looks like a mofo to negotiate.
 Thank you all for your service. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 1:33:19 AM EDT
[#45]
, the dad needs to understand that his son failed, not the Navy! |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 1:34:06 AM EDT
[#46]
Sorry for the loss dad.
More people have rang the bell then earned their budweiser. A SEAL brushes him self off and tries again. If not, the cadre doesnt need him anyway. Iam not going to get into his upbringing because i dont know him or his family. Its tragic for anyone to bail off a hotel. This isn't an epidemic problem. Leave the training alone. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 1:39:05 AM EDT
[#47]
I love how the vast majority of these replies are so moralist and at the same time obviously didn't read the OP.
It stands to reason that if you are going to intentionally break people down mentally, to include massive amounts of time without sleep, you can't just discharge them and expect them to be in a sound mental condition which means that it is reasonable to house them for a decompression period. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 1:44:25 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They try (and succeed) to break these guys down. Like the article mentioned, many of these guys define themselves solely by their position in the military. Just because he wasn't quite good enough, on that one day, to pass portions of a hardcore physical test after massive sleep deprivation (to the point where you or I (or the generals) wouldn't even be able to tie our shoes) - the benefits of which said tests are arguable - they should still be highly regarded and praised and given accolades, etc. They are still total badasses. Remember the movie "On Any Given Sunday" ? Even the greatest sports team in the fucking world, with the greatest records of all time, and all the greatest players, can still lose - on any given Sunday. These guys that "drop out" at that one point in time, are still incredible men. And the fucking drill sergeants and other officers should treat them as such. What a fucking waste and a terrible tragedy. Were you ever in the military? Serious question. Until you graduate a school. You have no spot to identify with. You are either a "trainee", "washout" or "graduate". If you are not a trainee and you didn't graduate then you are up to "needs of the Navy". You get what rate the Navy needs filled. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 1:45:32 AM EDT
[#49]
Wasn't mentally prepared. Hell week is about physical strength and mental strength. Neither is mutually exclusive. These were controlled circumstances. How would he have dealt with the uncontrolled that could lead to death.?
He should have been medically monitored. Maybe 4 days. No demeaning duty like sweeping or clean up. Straight to hospital for observation |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/11/2016 1:47:42 AM EDT
[#50]
These holier than thou moralist posts from people who obviously didn't read the OP are actually so disgusting that if I was a mod I would hand out timeouts so that people can learn to fucking read.
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
