Posted: 5/23/2016 8:13:05 PM EDT
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I know NICS can be used for a lost/stolen firearm that is recovered. I guess LE can enter the serial number and trace the gun back to the original owner instantly. But can someone's name be entered in to reveal all the guns they own...when they bought them...etc.?
Does it work for long guns or just handguns? Thanks -Emt1581 |
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I know NICS can be used for a lost/stolen firearm that is recovered. I guess LE can enter the serial number and trace the gun back to the original owner instantly. But can someone's name be entered in to reveal all the guns they own...when they bought them...etc.? Does it work for long guns or just handguns? Thanks -Emt1581 When you say "NICS" are you referring to the instant background check system that FFL's use when a customer buys a gun? If so, you are way off base. There is no information about the gun included in a NICS check. All the FFL tells the FBI is whether the gun being transferred is a longgun, handgun or "other." No brand, model, serial number or caliber is conveyed as part of a NICS check. But more to the point, there is no national registry of gun ownership. When a cop "runs a gun", he's checking the serial number against a database of guns reported stolen. I'm not LE but I believe that system is called NCIC . . . perhaps that's what you meant when you typed NICS. NICS: National Instant Criminal background check System NCIC: National Crime Information Center |
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Quoted: I know NICS can be used for a lost/stolen firearm that is recovered. I guess LE can enter the serial number and trace the gun back to the original owner instantly. But can someone's name be entered in to reveal all the guns they own...when they bought them...etc.? Does it work for long guns or just handguns? Thanks -Emt1581 To find the owner the LEO would contact the Nat'l Trace Center. They would tell the NTC the make model serial, say Ruger P89 sn:123. The NTC would contact Ruger and ask them where the P89 123 was sent. Ruger would tell them a wholesaler, say Davidsons. The NTC would call Davidson and ask where P89 sn:123 went and Davidsons would say it was sold to ABC Guns. NTC would call ABC Guns and ask them, they would check their records and say it was sold to Jim Jones and fax a copy of the 4473 to the NTC. There is no Federal registery showing all the guns owned by a person, that is Hollywood BS. (There isn't suppose to be a Federal registry...) |
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When you say "NICS" are you referring to the instant background check system that FFL's use when a customer buys a gun? If so, you are way off base. There is no information about the gun included in a NICS check. All the FFL tells the FBI is whether the gun being transferred is a longgun, handgun or "other." No brand, model, serial number or caliber is conveyed as part of a NICS check. But more to the point, there is no national registry of gun ownership. Hmm...so say a gun is recovered out of my state...how does the officer find out it belongs to me?? Let's start there before moving on. EDIT: Nevermind...substandard nailed it. Thanks! -Emt1581 |
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To find the owner the LEO would contact the Nat'l Trace Center. They would tell the NTC the make model serial, say Ruger P89 sn:123. The NTC would contact Ruger and ask them where the P89 123 was sent. Ruger would tell them a wholesaler, say Davidsons. The NTC would call Davidson and ask where P89 sn:123 went and Davidsons would say it was sold to ABC Guns. NTC would call ABC Guns and ask them, they would check their records and say it was sold to Jim Jones and fax a copy of the 4473 to the NTC. There is no Federal registery showing all the guns owned by a person, that is Hollywood BS. (There isn't suppose to be a Federal registry...) Quoted:
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I know NICS can be used for a lost/stolen firearm that is recovered. I guess LE can enter the serial number and trace the gun back to the original owner instantly. But can someone's name be entered in to reveal all the guns they own...when they bought them...etc.? Does it work for long guns or just handguns? Thanks -Emt1581 To find the owner the LEO would contact the Nat'l Trace Center. They would tell the NTC the make model serial, say Ruger P89 sn:123. The NTC would contact Ruger and ask them where the P89 123 was sent. Ruger would tell them a wholesaler, say Davidsons. The NTC would call Davidson and ask where P89 sn:123 went and Davidsons would say it was sold to ABC Guns. NTC would call ABC Guns and ask them, they would check their records and say it was sold to Jim Jones and fax a copy of the 4473 to the NTC. There is no Federal registery showing all the guns owned by a person, that is Hollywood BS. (There isn't suppose to be a Federal registry...) Ok, that makes sense. So the NTC doesn't have the capability to say how many guns and what they are...that someone owns. That must be the registery you reference and I've heard that before that there isn't one but the anti's want one. Thanks -Emt1581 |
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Quoted: Hmm...so say a gun is recovered out of my state...how does the officer find out it belongs to me?? Let's start there before moving on. Thanks! -Emt1581 Quoted: When you say "NICS" are you referring to the instant background check system that FFL's use when a customer buys a gun? If so, you are way off base. There is no information about the gun included in a NICS check. All the FFL tells the FBI is whether the gun being transferred is a longgun, handgun or "other." No brand, model, serial number or caliber is conveyed as part of a NICS check. But more to the point, there is no national registry of gun ownership. Hmm...so say a gun is recovered out of my state...how does the officer find out it belongs to me?? Let's start there before moving on. Thanks! -Emt1581 If you bought it new from a gun store then the Nat Trace would be able to say it was yours. If Jim Jones bought it new, then sold it to Bob, who sold it to John, who sold it to you, then it is just the word of the person or a bill of sale. The best the police can do is run the gun and see if it has been reported as stolen in the various data bases. If you filed a report that sn:123 was stolen in 2011 then it should pop and the pole can reasonably assume it is yours. |
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Quoted: Ok, that makes sense. So the NTC doesn't have the capability to say how many guns and what they are...that someone owns. That must be the registery you reference and I've heard that before that there isn't one but the anti's want one. Thanks -Emt1581 Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I know NICS can be used for a lost/stolen firearm that is recovered. I guess LE can enter the serial number and trace the gun back to the original owner instantly. But can someone's name be entered in to reveal all the guns they own...when they bought them...etc.? Does it work for long guns or just handguns? Thanks -Emt1581 To find the owner the LEO would contact the Nat'l Trace Center. They would tell the NTC the make model serial, say Ruger P89 sn:123. The NTC would contact Ruger and ask them where the P89 123 was sent. Ruger would tell them a wholesaler, say Davidsons. The NTC would call Davidson and ask where P89 sn:123 went and Davidsons would say it was sold to ABC Guns. NTC would call ABC Guns and ask them, they would check their records and say it was sold to Jim Jones and fax a copy of the 4473 to the NTC. There is no Federal registery showing all the guns owned by a person, that is Hollywood BS. (There isn't suppose to be a Federal registry...) Ok, that makes sense. So the NTC doesn't have the capability to say how many guns and what they are...that someone owns. That must be the registery you reference and I've heard that before that there isn't one but the anti's want one. Thanks -Emt1581 All FFLs must keep their 4473s for 20 years or send them to the Nat Trace when the FFL goes out of business. So in a sense the 4473s are a registry, but not one that can be easily or rapidly searched. |
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All FFLs must keep their 4473s for 20 years or send them to the Nat Trace when the FFL goes out of business. So in a sense the 4473s are a registry, but not one that can be easily or rapidly searched. Quoted:
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I know NICS can be used for a lost/stolen firearm that is recovered. I guess LE can enter the serial number and trace the gun back to the original owner instantly. But can someone's name be entered in to reveal all the guns they own...when they bought them...etc.? Does it work for long guns or just handguns? Thanks -Emt1581 To find the owner the LEO would contact the Nat'l Trace Center. They would tell the NTC the make model serial, say Ruger P89 sn:123. The NTC would contact Ruger and ask them where the P89 123 was sent. Ruger would tell them a wholesaler, say Davidsons. The NTC would call Davidson and ask where P89 sn:123 went and Davidsons would say it was sold to ABC Guns. NTC would call ABC Guns and ask them, they would check their records and say it was sold to Jim Jones and fax a copy of the 4473 to the NTC. There is no Federal registery showing all the guns owned by a person, that is Hollywood BS. (There isn't suppose to be a Federal registry...) Ok, that makes sense. So the NTC doesn't have the capability to say how many guns and what they are...that someone owns. That must be the registery you reference and I've heard that before that there isn't one but the anti's want one. Thanks -Emt1581 All FFLs must keep their 4473s for 20 years or send them to the Nat Trace when the FFL goes out of business. So in a sense the 4473s are a registry, but not one that can be easily or rapidly searched. 20 years...and then what...after that they can be destroyed? Thanks -Emt1581 |
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All FFLs must keep their 4473s for 20 years or send them to the Nat Trace when the FFL goes out of business. So in a sense the 4473s are a registry, but not one that can be easily or rapidly searched. 20 years? I thought it was 10. The feds are not supposed to put them in an electronics database. But who knows with the current criminal administration. |
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To find the owner the LEO would contact the Nat'l Trace Center. They would tell the NTC the make model serial, say Ruger P89 sn:123. The NTC would contact Ruger and ask them where the P89 123 was sent. Ruger would tell them a wholesaler, say Davidsons. The NTC would call Davidson and ask where P89 sn:123 went and Davidsons would say it was sold to ABC Guns. NTC would call ABC Guns and ask them, they would check their records and say it was sold to Jim Jones and fax a copy of the 4473 to the NTC. Quoted:
To find the owner the LEO would contact the Nat'l Trace Center. They would tell the NTC the make model serial, say Ruger P89 sn:123. The NTC would contact Ruger and ask them where the P89 123 was sent. Ruger would tell them a wholesaler, say Davidsons. The NTC would call Davidson and ask where P89 sn:123 went and Davidsons would say it was sold to ABC Guns. NTC would call ABC Guns and ask them, they would check their records and say it was sold to Jim Jones and fax a copy of the 4473 to the NTC. Note that for any of this to happen, the cops have to have the gun or at least know the gun's serial number. Without the serial number there's no way to start a trace. Quoted:There is no Federal registery showing all the guns owned by a person, that is Hollywood BS. (There isn't suppose to be a Federal registry...)
Right. There isn't even a registry of who bought what gun. The record of a gun's sale is maintained by the individual dealer. That's why they have to call the dealer to find out who it was transferred to. Any private transfers between unlicensed individuals breaks the chain. So when the trace center calls Jim Jones and he says "I sold it to some guy I met in a bar" that's the end of the trace. Remember this when people start talking about "universal background checks." Technically, I think it's illegal for the ATF to spend any money creating a registry. That means no staff time, no equipment, no nothing. People can say, "Yeah, right!" but every government expenditure has to be accounted for . . . in theory anyway. |
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Quoted: 20 years...and then what...after that they can be destroyed? Thanks -Emt1581 Quoted: Quoted: All FFLs must keep their 4473s for 20 years or send them to the Nat Trace when the FFL goes out of business. So in a sense the 4473s are a registry, but not one that can be easily or rapidly searched. 20 years...and then what...after that they can be destroyed? Thanks -Emt1581 Yes after 20 years they can be destroyed. For 4473s where a transfer didn't take place (say the buyer changed his mind) the forms can be destroyed after 5 years. For 4473s where the purchase was denied, I can't remember the magic number. I m getting old and there are to many damn laws to remember..  |
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Quoted: 20 years? I thought it was 10. The feds are not supposed to put them in an electronics database. But who knows with the current criminal administration. Quoted: Quoted: All FFLs must keep their 4473s for 20 years or send them to the Nat Trace when the FFL goes out of business. So in a sense the 4473s are a registry, but not one that can be easily or rapidly searched. 20 years? I thought it was 10. The feds are not supposed to put them in an electronics database. But who knows with the current criminal administration. Licensees shall retain each ATF Form 4473 for a period of not less than 20 years after the date of sale or disposition. Where a licensee has initiated a National Instant Background Check System (NICS) check for a proposed firearms transaction, but the sale, delivery, or transfer of the firearm is not made, the licensee shall record any transaction number on the Form 4473, and retain the Form 4473 for a period of not less than 5 years after the date of the NICS inquiry. [18 U.S.C. 923(g)(1)(A); 27 CFR 478.129(b)] |
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I would also say just as an FYI to the gun buyers... The FFL doesn't see anything about your history when doing a NICS check online, or by calling it in. All we see is PROCEED, DELAY, or DENY. We can't see your criminal history, your permanent record from school, just proceed, delay, deny. NICS won't tell us why you were denied or delayed even if we ask. You have to file an appeal and then they will tell you, we have no idea. I had one customer so worked up about what the NICS would show that I let her stand behind me as I ran the check. She was disappointed when all the screen showed was PROCEED. |
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If you bought it new from a gun store then the Nat Trace would be able to say it was yours. If Jim Jones bought it new, then sold it to Bob, who sold it to John, who sold it to you, then it is just the word of the person or a bill of sale. The best the police can do is run the gun and see if it has been reported as stolen in the various data bases. If you filed a report that sn:123 was stolen in 2011 then it should pop and the pole can reasonably assume it is yours. Quoted:
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Hmm...so say a gun is recovered out of my state...how does the officer find out it belongs to me?? If you bought it new from a gun store then the Nat Trace would be able to say it was yours. If Jim Jones bought it new, then sold it to Bob, who sold it to John, who sold it to you, then it is just the word of the person or a bill of sale. The best the police can do is run the gun and see if it has been reported as stolen in the various data bases. If you filed a report that sn:123 was stolen in 2011 then it should pop and the pole can reasonably assume it is yours. Again, the cops can't start a trace without having the gun (or the gun's details). Logically, it's unlikely they would ever run a trace on a gun that you still have in your possession. If your gun is being traced they either recovered it at a crime scene or found it in a burglar's booty or something. Maybe you've been arrested and they confiscated your gun. Some way or another it's out of your hands. They're not going to be tracing a gun that's still in your safe. |
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I would also say just as an FYI to the gun buyers... The FFL doesn't see anything about your history when doing a NICS check online, or by calling it in. All we see is PROCEED, DELAY, or DENY. We can't see your criminal history, your permanent record from school, just proceed, delay, deny. NICS won't tell us why you were denied or delayed even if we ask. You have to file an appeal and then they will tell you, we have no idea. I had one customer so worked up about what the NICS would show that I let her stand behind me as I ran the check. She was disappointed when all the screen showed was PROCEED. OK, I'll confess . . . sometimes when a customer gets a delay I'll look them up in the state's court history website to see if they have a criminal history. I do that after they've left the store, of course. There have been times when the customer got a deny but swore there's no reason. I'll think to myself "Yeah, well that assault charge might have something to do with it" but I keep that to myself. I just hand them the Deny/Delay info card and provide the NTN number. |
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we're talking about 2 different things here... i'm a 911 dispatcher and i enter items including guns into NCIC daily. as far as lost or stolen goes you have to report your theft to your local police who do a police report, they will have a case number and the gun info you provide such as a serial number, make and model. they (usually a dispatcher) enter your missing gun into NCIC. when an officer runs a gun on the street he will get a hit if it has been entered into NCIC as stolen. doesn't matter what agency he or she works for if it is in NCIC it will hit nationwide. that officer will see the make, model, serial number, and any other info you provide such as wood grips, scratch on the side, green slide and black frame... whatever. that officer will see the agency you reported it to as well as their case number. the officer that recovers the gun will get in contact with the agency you reported it to and that starts the process to get your gun back to you assuming it's not being held as evidence in a crime. lots of behind the scene stuff. many states have a statewide system as well. here in indiana we enter stolen items, vehicles, warrants, whatever into the statewide system as well as NCIC. |
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Quoted: OK, I'll confess . . . sometimes when a customer gets a delay I'll look them up in the state's court history website to see if they have a criminal history. I do that after they've left the store, of course. There have been times when the customer got a deny but swore there's no reason. I'll think to myself "Yeah, well that assault charge might have something to do with it" but I keep that to myself. I just hand them the Deny/Delay info card and provide the NTN number. Quoted: Quoted: I would also say just as an FYI to the gun buyers... The FFL doesn't see anything about your history when doing a NICS check online, or by calling it in. All we see is PROCEED, DELAY, or DENY. We can't see your criminal history, your permanent record from school, just proceed, delay, deny. NICS won't tell us why you were denied or delayed even if we ask. You have to file an appeal and then they will tell you, we have no idea. I had one customer so worked up about what the NICS would show that I let her stand behind me as I ran the check. She was disappointed when all the screen showed was PROCEED. OK, I'll confess . . . sometimes when a customer gets a delay I'll look them up in the state's court history website to see if they have a criminal history. I do that after they've left the store, of course. There have been times when the customer got a deny but swore there's no reason. I'll think to myself "Yeah, well that assault charge might have something to do with it" but I keep that to myself. I just hand them the Deny/Delay info card and provide the NTN number. Yeah I am guilty of snooping at times....  |
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Yeah I am guilty of snooping at times....
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I would also say just as an FYI to the gun buyers... The FFL doesn't see anything about your history when doing a NICS check online, or by calling it in. All we see is PROCEED, DELAY, or DENY. We can't see your criminal history, your permanent record from school, just proceed, delay, deny. NICS won't tell us why you were denied or delayed even if we ask. You have to file an appeal and then they will tell you, we have no idea. I had one customer so worked up about what the NICS would show that I let her stand behind me as I ran the check. She was disappointed when all the screen showed was PROCEED. OK, I'll confess . . . sometimes when a customer gets a delay I'll look them up in the state's court history website to see if they have a criminal history. I do that after they've left the store, of course. There have been times when the customer got a deny but swore there's no reason. I'll think to myself "Yeah, well that assault charge might have something to do with it" but I keep that to myself. I just hand them the Deny/Delay info card and provide the NTN number. Yeah I am guilty of snooping at times....
I do it more with pawn customers than gun customers, though. It can be helpful to know the criminal history of people trying to sell you stuff and those who bring stuff in for loans. |