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Posted: 5/16/2003 1:36:04 PM EDT
[#1]
Wouldn't be the first time. Those guys seem to be great at executing tactics most of the time, but incidents like this show the need for better intel & planning. It's happened before, eventually it will happen again. Police forces have been evolving into paramilitary organizations, some with a bit too much enthusiasm.
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Posted: 5/16/2003 1:40:12 PM EDT
[#2]
Another reason to stop no-knock raids. Seriously, any asshole knocking down my door is taking a hail storm of bullets. I'm not a criminal and there is no reason for the law to come to my house, I only expect criminals to break and enter and anyone doing so will be treated as criminals.
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Posted: 5/16/2003 2:45:30 PM EDT
[#3]
I'm just a lowly deputy in patrol but this past monday we got to kick in a door on a murderer who stabbed to death a 69 year old lady. She was stabbed over 100 times and her throat cut.
Our intel was good and we got him. Does that make me a JBT? My first time in a little over 5 years in police work that I've been on the scene where a door was kicked in. Except for like medical emergencies, etc. I gotta admit though it was fun! |
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Posted: 5/16/2003 2:51:05 PM EDT
[#4]
So WTF do you do if the SWAT breaks into your house in the middle of the night!?
ANYONE that crashes into my home in the middle of the night (or day) we will be thoroughly massacred... So what the f*cking hell happens to me (other than being shot) from a legal standpoint? |
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Posted: 5/16/2003 2:51:31 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: I'm just a lowly deputy in patrol but this past monday we got to kick in a door on a murderer who stabbed to death a 69 year old lady. She was stabbed over 100 times and her throat cut. Our intel was good and we got him. Does that make me a JBT? My first time in a little over 5 years in police work that I've been on the scene where a door was kicked in. Except for like medical emergencies, etc. I gotta admit though it was fun! I bet it was fun, the adrenaline kicking in, not knowing what's on the other side of the door waiting for ya. All the hardware oiled up and ready to rock'n'roll, good stuff, makes me wish I went into law enforcement after my gig with the marines. If ya'll didn't get the wrong house so often I wouldn't have a problem with it, and I thought we had bad intel in the corps. |
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Posted: 5/16/2003 2:56:29 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: Another reason to stop no-knock raids. Seriously, any asshole knocking down my door is taking a hail storm of bullets. I'm not a criminal and there is no reason for the law to come to my house, I only expect criminals to break and enter and anyone doing so will be treated as criminals. i'm gonna have to say ditto... |
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Posted: 5/16/2003 3:13:51 PM EDT
[#7]
It seems to me that no-knock raids are way over used. Eventually there's gonna be a door shortage in this country.
Say, you guys wouldn't be on the take from Anderson Doors and Windows, would you? [;D] |
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Posted: 5/16/2003 6:16:23 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: Quoted: I'm just a lowly deputy in patrol but this past monday we got to kick in a door on a murderer who stabbed to death a 69 year old lady. She was stabbed over 100 times and her throat cut. Our intel was good and we got him. Does that make me a JBT? My first time in a little over 5 years in police work that I've been on the scene where a door was kicked in. Except for like medical emergencies, etc. I gotta admit though it was fun! I bet it was fun, the adrenaline kicking in, not knowing what's on the other side of the door waiting for ya. All the hardware oiled up and ready to rock'n'roll, good stuff, makes me wish I went into law enforcement after my gig with the marines. If ya'll didn't get the wrong house so often I wouldn't have a problem with it, and I thought we had bad intel in the corps. Well yeah it was cool but I personally hate adrenaline dump cause it makes me shake. We went in to this location AFTER COMFIRMING WITH THE APARTMENT OWNER AND TWO OF HIS BUDS THAT HE WAS THERE AND SHE(THE APARTMENT OWNER) GAVE US PERMISSION TO DO WHATEVER WE HAD TO DO TO GET IN. Although we did have the keys I don't know why they didn't use them but anyways we didn't have any swat or special weapons or anything. It was all uniform patrol deputies and homicide detectives. Also, there was a dog in the apartment and no one even worried about it and it didn't get shot. |
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Posted: 5/16/2003 6:42:18 PM EDT
[#9]
[url]http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/84160p-76949c.html[/url]
[url]http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/35663.htm[/url] Woman dies during botched police raid THE ASSOCIATED PRESS A longtime city employee died of a suspected heart attack Friday after police tossed a flash grenade into her Harlem apartment during a botched drug raid. Alberta Spruill, 57, was pronounced dead about an hour after a dozen heavily armed officers broke into her home at dawn. They detonated the grenade and handcuffed her before realizing they had the wrong apartment. “We’re deeply saddened,” Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly told a news conference. “It’s a tragedy. This should not have happened.” An informant had told investigators the sixth-floor apartment was used to stash drugs and guns. None were found. A lieutenant who supervised the raid was put on administrative duty as police officials investigated what went wrong. Flash grenades produce a loud noise and a blinding flash of light when detonated. |
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Posted: 5/16/2003 6:52:01 PM EDT
[#10]
We all have the right to be secure in our homes and no-knock raids IMO violate the shit outta the 4th ammendment. Yeah they have warrants and the authority but in a situation where they enter your dwelling I would say they should announce their purpose and said warrant. If it makes the job more dangerous, so be it.
I hate these things. It is evidence of the further militarization of the CIVILIAN police force which are becoming the defacto "standing army" the Founders warned about. |
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Posted: 5/16/2003 6:59:28 PM EDT
[#11]
At least the [s]JBT's[/s] officers went home safe...
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Posted: 5/16/2003 7:05:24 PM EDT
[#12]
You civilians better get it through your skulls that if it weren't for SWAT, society would fall into complete anarchy.
Damn knuckleheads. |
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Posted: 5/16/2003 7:10:31 PM EDT
[#13]
I've been saying this for a long time now:
It's "to bust and incarcerate,NOT serve and protect"! |
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Posted: 5/16/2003 7:15:06 PM EDT
[#14]
I believe it was last year, in this area, a no-knock was done on the wrong house. The home owner grabbed his shotgun and was "MURDERED" by the police. He was just sitting in his lazy boy, drinking a beer and watching a ball game and the cops come in and blow him away. Needless to say, although the department lost the law suit and had to pay some money, that doesn't replace the husband and father lost. Also, none of the officers were criminally prosecuted. I firmly believe that they should have. All it was, was a case of "oops, stuff happens and here's a couple of bucks to replace a human being!"
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Posted: 5/16/2003 7:19:38 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: So WTF do you do if the SWAT breaks into your house in the middle of the night!? I bought me some mall ninja pajamas from Quarter Master and a kevlar pot and go to bed in them every night. When/if I hear my front door coming down I pop out of bed and grab my son's air soft MP5 and come out of the bed room "[B]HUT, HUT, HUT, THIS ROOM'S CLEARED![/B]" and hut hut hut my ass out the back door. |
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Posted: 5/16/2003 7:22:12 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: I believe it was last year, in this area, a no-knock was done on the wrong house. The home owner grabbed his shotgun and was "MURDERED" by the police. He was just sitting in his lazy boy, drinking a beer and watching a ball game and the cops come in and blow him away. Needless to say, although the department lost the law suit and had to pay some money, that doesn't replace the husband and father lost. Also, none of the officers were criminally prosecuted. I firmly believe that they should have. All it was, was a case of "oops, stuff happens and here's a couple of bucks to replace a human being!" If you aren't up on current events let me help you: WE ARE AT WAR! I would have thought by now that you civilians knew that with war comes COLLATERAL DAMAGE. It is an acceptible loss that is small price to pay for the freedoms in our great democracy. Now as to you wanting to bring charges against the officers involved that would do nothing but cause hesitation by other SWAT officers when carrying out their duties. Anyone who is experienced in combat knows that hesitation KILLS. |
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Posted: 5/16/2003 7:56:43 PM EDT
[#17]
Embrioglio,
I like my solution to this issue. Nobody gets hurt. The SWAT guys could be right, could be wrong, but it just don't matter. They'll sort it out and I'll come back in the morning with a box of Crispy Creams and ask "What's up?". |
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Posted: 5/16/2003 9:29:40 PM EDT
[#18]
I attended a conference of chiefs of police a couple of years ago where it was agreed among the chiefs that there was no justification to use a no-knock raid in drug cases. The only justification would be in the case of a hostage situation where hostages are being killed and immediate action must be taken to save lives.
In every other case, a no-knock is gross negligence and not acceptable by modern policing standards. |
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Posted: 5/16/2003 11:37:07 PM EDT
[#19]
Let me tell ya something...if I wake up to armed men in my house...I'm going for my gun, even if it means I'll be ventelated. Rule number one when attacked is to never let the other guy disarm you. If you hesitate and they are home invaders...they will get between you and your guns and then you are at their mercy.
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Posted: 5/17/2003 1:52:31 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Quoted: So WTF do you do if the SWAT breaks into your house in the middle of the night!? I bought me some mall ninja pajamas from Quarter Master and a kevlar pot and go to bed in them every night. When/if I hear my front door coming down I pop out of bed and grab my son's air soft MP5 and come out of the bed room "[B]HUT, HUT, HUT, THIS ROOM'S CLEARED![/B]" and hut hut hut my ass out the back door. Wow, I really, trully think that would work! No [BS], I'm serious... I'm gonna put me together a whole SWAT suit and get a semi-auto MP5!!! |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 1:59:45 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: You civilians better get it through your skulls that if it weren't for SWAT, society would fall into complete anarchy. Damn knuckleheads. I'll take it one further, thank you Daryl Gates![beer] |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 2:06:08 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: You civilians better get it through your skulls that if it weren't for SWAT, society would fall into complete anarchy. Damn knuckleheads. Yeah, they really made their point at the Waco BBQ... |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 2:18:23 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: So WTF do you do if the SWAT breaks into your house in the middle of the night!? ANYONE that crashes into my home in the middle of the night (or day) we will be thoroughly massacred... So what the f*cking hell happens to me (other than being shot) from a legal standpoint? yes lets keep pretending you can kill an entire swat teams that is prepared for the entry while you are shocked awake by it.... |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 2:31:09 AM EDT
[#24]
Intel fails once again. One of these days, you'll hear or read of a SWAT TEAM raid on one of it's own members by error."OH SHIT GUYS!,THIS MY HOUSE!"[shock]
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Posted: 5/17/2003 2:38:04 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Quoted: So WTF do you do if the SWAT breaks into your house in the middle of the night!? ANYONE that crashes into my home in the middle of the night (or day) we will be thoroughly massacred... So what the f*cking hell happens to me (other than being shot) from a legal standpoint? yes lets keep pretending you can kill an entire swat teams that is prepared for the entry while you are shocked awake by it.... I think he might have a better chance if he has a gate that precedes the front door. NME you got a gate???? Guess a lot of these no knock recipients don't have a front gate. And I'm not talking about the kind you can jump over, I'm talking about the kind that has a lock on it. |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 2:49:27 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: I just overheard on the radio that a SWAT team just executed a 'no-knock' on the wrong house. . The "wrong house" meaning the wrong address? Or the "wrong" house meaning the right address, but the intel was flawed? They are not anywhere near the same. |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 5:01:23 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: So WTF do you do if the SWAT breaks into your house in the middle of the night!? Close your eyes very tight and open your mouth very wide. This will save some of your night vision from the "flash," and your mouth open wide will pop your ears to equalize some of the pressure from the "bang." Then go for head shots. |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 5:05:02 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: They are not anywhere near the same. They are for the occupants of the house. |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 5:08:09 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: I'm just a lowly deputy in patrol but this past monday we got to kick in a door on a murderer who stabbed to death a 69 year old lady. She was stabbed over 100 times and her throat cut. Our intel was good and we got him. Does that make me a JBT? My first time in a little over 5 years in police work that I've been on the scene where a door was kicked in. Except for like medical emergencies, etc. I gotta admit though it was fun! And that sick nut will get what life, even if they sentenced the punk to death he gets what a little shot in the arm. They should stab his ass 100 times and than slit his neck, I mean he didn't seem to think it crule and unusual when he did it to that ol' lady. |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 5:22:07 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: Quoted: I just overheard on the radio that a SWAT team just executed a 'no-knock' on the wrong house. . The "wrong house" meaning the wrong address? Or the "wrong" house meaning the right address, but the intel was flawed? They are not anywhere near the same. Nope, it was the wrong HOUSE. The suspect was on the 9th floor, and I think the were on the 6th. Supposedly thier informant gave unreliable info. They sure didn't waste any time busting down doors for what???? A drug dealer???Instead they kill some 60yr old lady. |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 5:43:51 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: You civilians better get it through your skulls that if it weren't for SWAT, society would fall into complete anarchy. Damn knuckleheads. I seriously doubt it would go to anarchy...but anything is better than a police-state! |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 5:46:18 AM EDT
[#32]
I see a problem here - an "informant"
geez...If I was really pissed off at someone, I could "inform" the police that there is a drug dealer at that person's address....and then say "oh, I am sorry, I must have made a mistake..." Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I just overheard on the radio that a SWAT team just executed a 'no-knock' on the wrong house. . The "wrong house" meaning the wrong address? Or the "wrong" house meaning the right address, but the intel was flawed? They are not anywhere near the same. Nope, it was the wrong HOUSE. The suspect was on the 9th floor, and I think the were on the 6th. Supposedly thier informant gave unreliable info. They sure didn't waste any time busting down doors for what???? A drug dealer???Instead they kill some 60yr old lady. |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 5:54:59 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: Quoted: I just overheard on the radio that a SWAT team just executed a 'no-knock' on the wrong house. . The "wrong house" meaning the wrong address? Or the "wrong" house meaning the right address, but the intel was flawed? They are not anywhere near the same. Sure they are. One is due to negligence on thepart of whomever was leading that "team", one is due to negliggince of whomever made the decision that the bad intel was reliable. Gross negligence on the part of the police in either case. This shit happens over and over, and it is sad to say that the biggest problem is that so many in LE don't see it as a problem. I know there are many departments out there that take great precautions to ensure it doesn't happen, but so many don't. And this incident just goes to show it doesn't have to be smaller communities with underfunded departmenst who screw up. Sad thing is, we only hear about it when somebody gets hurt, and I bet that happens only in a small percentage of these cases, so how many wrong homes are busted into every year? It has to be well over 100. Either that, or they hurt soemnone on an alarmingly huge percentage of these raids. Of course there is no way to know since no statistics are kept on such matters. After the first widely publicised incident, every team should have taken notice and adopted safeguards. After the hundreds that have happened, there is no excuse for procedures that allow this to occur. Sad to say, but I think only one thing will stop this, and that is start filing criminal charges for manslaughter and criminal negligence when this happens. They sure don't seem to want to fix the problem themselves. |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 5:57:58 AM EDT
[#34]
i have noticed that these no knocks seldom if any occur in the more affluent neighborhoods.
gee i wonder what the law enforcement reaction would be if they"no knocked" one of their own or another officer's mother and flash banged her. i am not bashing cops either i have relatives that are in law enforcement,but i am bashing no knock raids. josam |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 6:13:38 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: i have noticed that these no knocks seldom if any occur in the more affluent neighborhoods. gee i wonder what the law enforcement reaction would be if they"no knocked" one of their own or another officer's mother and flash banged her. i am not bashing cops either i have relatives that are in law enforcement,but i am bashing no knock raids. josam Actually, they seem to be equal oppertunity raiders sometimes: [b]Cops Bust Mayor St. Louis Post-Dispatch, June 5, 1992 A police SWAT team in Venice, MO. broke down the back door and crashed through the window of the home of Mayor Tyrone Echols in a fumbled crack raid. Police claimed that the goof resulted from a wrong address on the search warrant, but the furious Mayor Echols, a black man, says the cops were lucky he was not home at the time. "I probably would've taken my pistol and shot through the door." Noting that the incident took place just as contract negotiations between police and the city were starting, Echols says, "Don't think I haven't considered the possibilities. I'm no fool." [/b] |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 6:49:18 AM EDT
[#36]
They raided the Mayor's address??? Wow, talk about a colossal F up.
Maybe there should be some anonymous tips to Feinstein, Schumer, and Hillary's addresses. [;)] Seriously though, no knock raids seem to beg for casualties. Granted you can take someone off guard, but if you don't then it almost guarantees gunplay. What about just waiting for them to come outside?? |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 6:58:31 AM EDT
[#37]
In the mid 90's I worked "Dope" in a large southern city as a member of a multi-agency taskforce. We would run as many as 4-6 search warrants a night , all against dope dealers. We used what we called a "knock and bust" tactic. As one member beat on the door, everyone yelling "Police,search warrant,open the door" we would be hitting the door w/ the ram or other tools as needed. No one ever had time to open the door before it was forced open , but again no one ever had time to get a weapon to harm us with either. The offical line was that we had to make a quick entry to prevent the dope from being flushed down the toilet , it is evidence , and this did happen a few times, tho most of the time it only clogged the toilet. The real un-offical reason to use this tactic was to prevent any one in the house getting a weapon and killing one of us. As a firm follower of the Bill of Rights I was never very comforable with this tactic , but in the course of running over 500 search warrants we never lost a man and thank God never had to shoot a Citizen. Yes , out of the 500+ papers we ran we did hit a few wrong houses , it happens for several reasons, each one a true human mistake that we were very sorry for and did repair any damage done. With the exception of one homeowner whos son was in the pen for drug dealing all the other wrong home homeowners were very understanding and were behind us trying to clean up their streets. These people were much more afraid of the street dealing then the cops coming in durning the middle of the night. Anyone who has never had to do this job just can not understand the reason we do things the way we do. This is not a excuse to allow LEO's to run crazy , but the average person has no idea how it really is in the citys and that this is how it is.
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Posted: 5/17/2003 7:20:51 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: Quoted: So WTF do you do if the SWAT breaks into your house in the middle of the night!? I bought me some mall ninja pajamas from Quarter Master and a kevlar pot and go to bed in them every night. When/if I hear my front door coming down I pop out of bed and grab my son's air soft MP5 and come out of the bed room "[B]HUT, HUT, HUT, THIS ROOM'S CLEARED![/B]" and hut hut hut my ass out the back door. I have to say, that's the funniest thing I read in quite a while. Please inform us if it actually works. |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 7:23:07 AM EDT
[#39]
Ok drug warriors; if alcohol were declared illegal tomorrow would you be kicking in doors of Joe sixpack by Friday?
As far as I’m concerned that poor old lady is another victim of the insane “war on drugs”. |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 7:28:22 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I just overheard on the radio that a SWAT team just executed a 'no-knock' on the wrong house. . The "wrong house" meaning the wrong address? Or the "wrong" house meaning the right address, but the intel was flawed? They are not anywhere near the same. Nope, it was the wrong HOUSE. The suspect was on the 9th floor, and I think the were on the 6th. Supposedly thier informant gave unreliable info. They sure didn't waste any time busting down doors for what???? A drug dealer???Instead they kill some 60yr old lady. That solves it.They were walking on their hands. |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 9:00:42 AM EDT
[#41]
New news on this raid, the perp was in police custody at the time, and had been for 4 days......
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Posted: 5/17/2003 9:40:10 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: New news on this raid, the perp was in police custody at the time, and had been for 4 days...... Somebody definitly needs to go to jail on this...but do you think it would ever even be considered? |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 11:47:58 AM EDT
[#43]
The LT in charge of the raid is on suspension pending an investigation...........
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Posted: 5/17/2003 11:55:01 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: Quoted: So WTF do you do if the SWAT breaks into your house in the middle of the night!? I bought me some mall ninja pajamas from Quarter Master and a kevlar pot and go to bed in them every night. When/if I hear my front door coming down I pop out of bed and grab my son's air soft MP5 and come out of the bed room "[B]HUT, HUT, HUT, THIS ROOM'S CLEARED![/B]" and hut hut hut my ass out the back door. [lol] |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 11:58:15 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: In the mid 90's I worked "Dope" in a large southern city as a member of a multi-agency taskforce. We would run as many as 4-6 search warrants a night , all against dope dealers. We used what we called a "knock and bust" tactic. As one member beat on the door, everyone yelling "Police,search warrant,open the door" we would be hitting the door w/ the ram or other tools as needed. No one ever had time to open the door before it was forced open , but again no one ever had time to get a weapon to harm us with either. The offical line was that we had to make a quick entry to prevent the dope from being flushed down the toilet , it is evidence , and this did happen a few times, tho most of the time it only clogged the toilet. The real un-offical reason to use this tactic was to prevent any one in the house getting a weapon and killing one of us. As a firm follower of the Bill of Rights ... or not so firm |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 12:01:26 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Quoted: New news on this raid, the perp was in police custody at the time, and had been for 4 days...... Somebody definitly needs to go to jail on this...[red]but do you think it would ever even be considered?[/red] [LOL] |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 12:45:31 PM EDT
[#47]
Question for you LEOs out there: I am a law-abiding citizen. I pay my taxes, stay out of trouble, and don't bother anyone. I am armed to defend my family and myself. I sleep with a loaded pistol on the nightstand by my bed in case of a break-in during the night.
How can I protect myself from being a victim of this sort of incident? Is there any way? Will my family just have to deal with the fact that I'm of a lesser class than those who kick down my door on a no-knock? "Oops- soory about that ma'am. We were supposed to be at the other end of the block. No hard feelings, OK?" During a no-knock is there time for me to say, "Who goes there?" Probably not. Between the rush of action, adrenalin, and everything else I doubt I'd be heard or understood. In these days of home invasion crimes a homeowner naturally suspects the worst when his door is kicked in. I know I would. Criminals who do these things are not there to negotiate, thus, I'm not either. I will be aggressive in defending my family. So then, where does the average guy trying to take care of his home fit into this? Is he even considered? There are a lot of us out here. This isn't meant as cop basing. I respect you guys for the job you do. It's this no-knock tactic I'm criticizing here. Going back to that guy who murdered the 69-year old lady, he was boxed up with no where to go. He could have been given the ultimatum to give himself up. In the end, he would have either surrendered, killed himself, or walked into a barrage of guns if he tried to get out. Not as spectacular, but the situation would have been controlled at a lower intensity level. The no-knock at the wrong address is one of the things that truly scares me. |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 1:35:10 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: I'm just a lowly deputy in patrol but this past monday we got to kick in a door on a murderer who stabbed to death a 69 year old lady. She was stabbed over 100 times and her throat cut. Our intel was good and we got him. Does that make me a JBT? My first time in a little over 5 years in police work that I've been on the scene where a door was kicked in. Except for like medical emergencies, etc. I gotta admit though it was fun! Personally for me, I just kinda scarced of raiding the wrong address. I think the news media only reports the raids that has gone awry, and not the successful one, which gives the appearance that these things happen all of the time. In West Covina, Calif.(about 25 miles east of L.A.) the West Covina PD SWAT broke into the wrong apartment and killed this guy they just woke up in the middle of his sleep. I don't know what happened after that. |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 3:11:00 PM EDT
[#49]
Fougasse under the porch.
They wanna play Israelis, I'm happy to play Palestinian. |
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Posted: 5/17/2003 3:20:22 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: Fougasse under the porch. They wanna play Israelis, I'm happy to play Palestinian. ought to make the mail man happy too intersting sig line, got a link to that quote in context? |
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