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Posted: 4/6/2016 1:32:48 PM EDT
[#1]
They have to print it before we can see what's in it.
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Posted: 4/6/2016 1:35:31 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fuck Obama. 
This. OST to see what this shit looks like. |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 1:37:12 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
6 An estimate of the total public burden (in hours) associated with the collection: The estimated annual public burden associated with this collection is 9,137,620 hours. SRS? That's over 1000 years. |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 1:38:31 PM EDT
[#4]
Probably switching around the yes and the no questions again. Whoopty fuckin doo.
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Posted: 4/6/2016 1:39:53 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They are probably doing this to push you toward getting your CCW that way they have a pic and prints on file. With my CCW I don't have to do the background check. |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 1:44:39 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They are probably doing this to push you toward getting your CCW that way they have a pic and prints on file. With my CCW I don't have to do the background check. Not all states require a pic and prints for a CCW. |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 1:54:58 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wish they'd reduce something on the front page so at least the transferee could sign at the bottom of the form on the first page. Also, remove a bunch of the silly questions and have a big box at the top that says, "If you have a CHL enter the number here and just sign at the bottom". The half a dozen boxes dealing with NICS denials, delays, etc. operator ID numbers etc should be gotten rid of and just fix the background check process. It should be more like a credit card transaction. Immediate yes/no answer. Most of my calls are taking 20 minutes on hold these days. Unacceptable. Really? I did it yesterday and it took about ten minutes from "can I see your license?" to "have a nice day". |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 1:56:10 PM EDT
[#8]
What kind of information?
What part of Shall Not Be Infringed do you not understand? |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 2:00:54 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
WTF?? Are you serious? They want serial numbers now? This is registration. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So with an Electronic 4473 the ATF for the 1st time will have real time access to the serial # of the future firearms purchased  WTF?? Are you serious? They want serial numbers now? This is registration. 4473 already has serial number on it I thought. |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 2:07:19 PM EDT
[#10]
Stocking up on 80% lowers
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Posted: 4/6/2016 2:12:06 PM EDT
[#11]
Estimated public burden, 9 million hours.
Must be part of the paperwork reduction act |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 2:16:07 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
4473 already has serial number on it I thought. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So with an Electronic 4473 the ATF for the 1st time will have real time access to the serial # of the future firearms purchased WTF?? Are you serious? They want serial numbers now? This is registration. 4473 already has serial number on it I thought. Yes. A.W.D. |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 2:19:13 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
 That image perfectly sums up the Republican primary.
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Posted: 4/6/2016 2:22:22 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That image perfectly sums up the Republican primary. Quote HistoryIts lol because its true. |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 2:24:22 PM EDT
[#15]
FU ATF leave shit alone
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Posted: 4/6/2016 2:49:27 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
4473 already has serial number on it I thought. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So with an Electronic 4473 the ATF for the 1st time will have real time access to the serial # of the future firearms purchased WTF?? Are you serious? They want serial numbers now? This is registration. 4473 already has serial number on it I thought. IIRC the number goes on the form, but when they call it in they just say pistol, rifle, or other. |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 2:59:44 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not all states require a pic and prints for a CCW. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
They are probably doing this to push you toward getting your CCW that way they have a pic and prints on file. With my CCW I don't have to do the background check. Not all states require a pic and prints for a CCW. Just pics here and no background check with CCDW. |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 3:00:10 PM EDT
[#18]
Hopefully they'll add a box for me to include the content of my prayers.
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Posted: 4/6/2016 3:01:07 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you lose the two casings that came with your new gun plan on prison. I still get new handguns that don't come with empties. Disappointing, because I usually reload them and use them. |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 3:07:32 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Honestly, it looks like they're asking the OMB (and the public) to comment on the current process, including how long it actually takes to process the current form. I've read it a couple of times, and it's not clear that they're proposing changes to the 4473 yet. If anything, based on what they're asking the OMB to comment on, they'd be looking to simplify the form. The most obvious inference from the proposal, is a request for the OMB to suggest ways in which the ATF can speed the process up on their end, through "appropriate automated, electronic, mechanical, or other technological collection techniques or other forms of information technology, e.g., permitting electronic submission of responses". I know how to simplify the form. It's very easy. You just require the same amount of application fees, paperwork, and provisions as you do when you exercise your 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 5th Amendment rights, or the rights recognized therein as free from government abuse. The whole FFL system, 4473, and ATF are unconstitutional by their very nature, and need to be abolished. |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 3:07:47 PM EDT
[#21]
There is a thing called "value of time and road user cost" used in the bidding of DOT projects. In short, it assesses a value to delay caused by construction to better compare bid proposals. Shut the whole road down and detour people twenty miles 24/7 vs work one lane at a time at night. The former is going to obviously effect a lot more people and generate a lot more delay to the individuals using the road.
Texas assigned a value of $22.09/hour of delay (this is simply for time, no mileage, fuel or anything else so it is a decent measure of what a person's time is worth on average.) So using the ATF estimated time for just the individuals filling out the form, they are okay with racking up ~$202,000,000 worth of time from the firearm buying public annually, which does not take into account the FFL's time and .gov administration. |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 3:07:51 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Isn't the 4473 required on purchase from an FFL? Even with a LTC here you still are required to fill out the 4473. That is my understanding, yes. I still have to fill out the 4473 and all, just don't have to wait. |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 3:09:34 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
4473 already has serial number on it I thought. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So with an Electronic 4473 the ATF for the 1st time will have real time access to the serial # of the future firearms purchased WTF?? Are you serious? They want serial numbers now? This is registration. 4473 already has serial number on it I thought. Correct - section "D," number 28. HOWEVER - that info is never given to the NICS. Further, it isn't given to the ATF until after the FFL goes out of business. If the 4473 form (the form itself) becomes an "electronic document" then the serial number WOULD BE given to ATF and/or NICS. ATF is barred by law from maintaining a computerized database. There is no penalty for violating that law. |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 3:11:33 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So with an Electronic 4473 the ATF for the 1st time will have real time access to the serial # of the future firearms purchased Electronic 4473s are already available. |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 3:11:40 PM EDT
[#25]
Does this mean when it's published we only have 60 days for a comment period to try and shove the proposal up their ass for the next 5 years?
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Posted: 4/6/2016 4:17:11 PM EDT
[#26]
I thought laws recently passed prohibited the keeping of records of firearm purchases by the federal government.
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Posted: 4/6/2016 4:20:00 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I thought laws recently passed prohibited the keeping of records of firearm purchases by the federal government. Careful, you'll cause people to piss themselves laughing. |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 4:21:04 PM EDT
[#28]
If you call NICS you'll hear the "high call volumes blurb etc". It's been taking a long time. When you say license do you mean driver's or CHL. If CHL then yes you wouldn't experience the wait since you don't need the BG check.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Really? I did it yesterday and it took about ten minutes from "can I see your license?" to "have a nice day". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I wish they'd reduce something on the front page so at least the transferee could sign at the bottom of the form on the first page. Also, remove a bunch of the silly questions and have a big box at the top that says, "If you have a CHL enter the number here and just sign at the bottom". The half a dozen boxes dealing with NICS denials, delays, etc. operator ID numbers etc should be gotten rid of and just fix the background check process. It should be more like a credit card transaction. Immediate yes/no answer. Most of my calls are taking 20 minutes on hold these days. Unacceptable. Really? I did it yesterday and it took about ten minutes from "can I see your license?" to "have a nice day". |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 4:24:32 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If CHL then yes you wouldn't experience the wait since you don't need the BG check. Only in states where a permit is recognized as an exemption to the NICS check |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 4:24:45 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct - section "D," number 28. HOWEVER - that info is never given to the NICS. Further, it isn't given to the ATF until after the FFL goes out of business. If the 4473 form (the form itself) becomes an "electronic document" then the serial number WOULD BE given to ATF and/or NICS. ATF is barred by law from maintaining a computerized database. There is no penalty for violating that law. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So with an Electronic 4473 the ATF for the 1st time will have real time access to the serial # of the future firearms purchased WTF?? Are you serious? They want serial numbers now? This is registration. 4473 already has serial number on it I thought. Correct - section "D," number 28. HOWEVER - that info is never given to the NICS. Further, it isn't given to the ATF until after the FFL goes out of business. If the 4473 form (the form itself) becomes an "electronic document" then the serial number WOULD BE given to ATF and/or NICS. ATF is barred by law from maintaining a computerized database. There is no penalty for violating that law. Bingo... |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 4:29:10 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In all fairness, the folks estimating this are the same ones that take 90 fucking days to glance over a Form 1 and make sure all the boxes are checked. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Did I just read it will take an estimated 30 minutes to fill out the new form? In all fairness, the folks estimating this are the same ones that take 90 fucking days to glance over a Form 1 and make sure all the boxes are checked. That made me chuckle, but it's really not funny 
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Posted: 4/6/2016 4:30:12 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bingo... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So with an Electronic 4473 the ATF for the 1st time will have real time access to the serial # of the future firearms purchased WTF?? Are you serious? They want serial numbers now? This is registration. 4473 already has serial number on it I thought. Correct - section "D," number 28. HOWEVER - that info is never given to the NICS. Further, it isn't given to the ATF until after the FFL goes out of business. If the 4473 form (the form itself) becomes an "electronic document" then the serial number WOULD BE given to ATF and/or NICS. ATF is barred by law from maintaining a computerized database. There is no penalty for violating that law. Bingo... Anybody have the text of that law? A.W.D. |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 4:32:29 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Exactly. It takes us only a few minutes because we have the info and answers down pat, imagine if you had never done one before and decided to read the entire thing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
This might be a big "stick it to gun owners". Or it might just be a minor change and the 30 minutes includes the average reading, comprehension and data collection for a person that has never filled out a 4473. This is more than likely accurate. This is on the current 4473 The estimated average burden associated with this collection is 30 minutes per
respondent or recordkeeper, depending on individual circumstances. Exactly. It takes us only a few minutes because we have the info and answers down pat, imagine if you had never done one before and decided to read the entire thing. This. I was at a store with a first time gun buyer and it took them much longer than I would have taken. And that was with me standing beside them to immediately answer questions and help walk them through the process. |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 4:34:40 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This might be a big "stick it to gun owners". Or it might just be a minor change and the 30 minutes includes the average reading, comprehension and data collection for a person that has never filled out a 4473. That's my guess Some people can't just fly through it and know how to answer the questions without reading.
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Posted: 4/6/2016 4:39:37 PM EDT
[#35]
Harumpf
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Posted: 4/6/2016 4:40:46 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did I just read it will take an estimated 30 minutes to fill out the new form? I think it means that it'll take 30 minutes to fill out the responses to them saying they're going to change the form. I don't think they're saying that it's going to take 30 minutes to fill out the 4473. |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 4:41:00 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryAnybody have the text of that law? A.W.D. Sure. It's here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 4:45:49 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you lose the two casings that came with your new gun plan on prison. What are you talking about? 
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Posted: 4/6/2016 4:48:34 PM EDT
[#39]
Making the form bilingual?
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Posted: 4/6/2016 4:55:51 PM EDT
[#40]
Do some of you guys realize this happens all the time with Govt. forms ????
It's "SOP for the OMB" ....... I couldn't tell you the number of times 4473's have been changed in my 30 years of buying guns.......Form 1's and Form 4's have been changed at least 10 times in that time period though..... If you want to believe that it's happening as the result of a secret executive order signed by Obama at the request of the ATF, the Bilderbergers, and the Holy Roman Emperor that's up to you.......
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Posted: 4/6/2016 4:58:54 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Making the form bilingual? Spanish version already exists. |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 4:59:44 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do some of you guys realize this happens all the time with Govt. forms ???? It's "SOP for the OMB" ....... I couldn't tell you the number of times 4473's have been changed in my 30 years of buying guns.......Form 1's and Form 4's have been changed at least 10 times in that time period though..... If you want to believe that it's happening as the result of a secret executive order signed by Obama at the request of the ATF, the Bilderbergers, and the Holy Roman Emperor that's up to you.......
Every time the 4473 changes, it gets worse. |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 5:00:01 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do some of you guys realize this happens all the time with Govt. forms ???? It's "SOP for the OMB" ....... I couldn't tell you the number of times 4473's have been changed in my 30 years of buying guns.......Form 1's and Form 4's have been changed at least 10 times in that time period though..... If you want to believe that it's happening as the result of a secret executive order signed by Obama at the request of the ATF, the Bilderbergers, and the Holy Roman Emperor that's up to you....... Whether it was.. or wasn't.. The Effect is Still the Same |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 5:01:21 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What are you talking about? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If you lose the two casings that came with your new gun plan on prison. What are you talking about? Most pistols come with two spent casings in a sealed envelope for states that require the dealer to send spent casings to the government before a sale. Not an issue in freer States... Yet. |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 5:05:46 PM EDT
[#45]
As always, FTF for the win.
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Posted: 4/6/2016 5:14:04 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:     Careful, you'll cause people to piss themselves laughing. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I thought laws recently passed prohibited the keeping of records of firearm purchases by the federal government. Careful, you'll cause people to piss themselves laughing. FIFY |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 5:15:56 PM EDT
[#47]
Could you fill it out in a foreign language?
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Posted: 4/6/2016 5:31:10 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Could you fill it out in a foreign language? Arabic? 
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Posted: 4/6/2016 5:42:49 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Uh oh... |
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Posted: 4/6/2016 5:58:01 PM EDT
[#50]
Can you save the form on your computer at home, type in all regular info, print it out before you go to the LGS and just fill in the info they need like date, make, model, serial number ect?
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