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Posted: 5/8/2003 2:14:55 AM EDT
Someone tell me why our kids are so dismal when compared with those of the rest of the world! Be QUICK with the answer!! Our fate as a nation hangs in the balance.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 3:58:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2003 3:59:53 AM EDT by reconBYfire]
because a large number of them are fu#kin spoiled and selfish...... my edit: nothing wrong with spoling a kid....it is the ones they expect it all the time and dont appreciate it.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 4:03:03 AM EDT
"Self Esteem" and Outcome Based Education. Scott
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 4:03:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2003 4:06:46 AM EDT by Oslow]
Lower expectations, less discipline, unions, tenure, national and state “education” offices telling local districts how to do things, students with the “right” to act stupid … ………… Oh, and don't forget liberal commie pinko stupid polititians who are mostly concerned with stamping out more liberal commie pinko stupid voters.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 4:05:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 4:09:50 AM EDT
Bordem.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 4:38:08 AM EDT
One thing that fucked up the public school system was Blacks and Democrat insistence that standards and behavioral rules be lowered and adjusted to supposedly allow Blacks to better compete with Whitey, (a chains thing) didn't work, now they kill themselves every year by the thousands wholesale in the hood.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 4:50:00 AM EDT
[peep] here we go.........
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 4:57:23 AM EDT
the reds knew that getting into the minds of kids young would give them an advantage in the future hence all the socialist, earth worshipping, peta, union shitheads who are teachers
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 4:57:29 AM EDT
Two things: Democrats and SOL
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 5:07:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2003 5:09:04 AM EDT by MickeyMouse]
I fear Am-O-Tramp's comments are true. HAve never understood how minorities could get ahead by being less educated. Those who can perform equal to "whitey" are in a better position to demand equal treatment. The "self esteem" BS is a large part too. If it is earned that is fine. When we try to produce it from low standards and destroy effective teaching methods then it becomes destructive. I will even agree with the teachers a little. Parents have become lazy. They no longer INSIST their kids work and learn. Look at Asian kids. They very often excell in our crummy schools because education and hard work is very important in their culture. SPORTS are destructive as hell in our schools. More often than not they eat up huge sums of money in construction, maintenance and operating funds. ALL sports programs should be supported by donated funds NOT from taxes!!!!!!!!!!! If a tiny amount of the effort and interest shown in sports at the HS & college level was applied to something worthwhile, our education problems would be severely reduced. BS courses like art have no place in schools. They belong in enrichment programs not as taxpayer funded "education". Overpaid, underworked teachers who went into teaching because there was little else they were qualified for has become a self perpetuating problem. I could go on but this should be enough to start a flame fest!!
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 5:08:11 AM EDT
The concept of universal education carries a couple of problems, and the dumbing down of the network is one of them. I'm not commenting on the external reasons, just internal. The bureaucratic structures and laws surrounding public education doom it to mediocrity. The law states that schools must accept all children, the law also states that the schools must pass X% yearly. Thus, the system organizes itself in such a way to adhere to the law. The quality of education is second. Primary is acquiring the funding attached to these laws. This, combinded with the external factors already discussed makes the system hopeless.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 5:56:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MickeyMouse: I fear Am-O-Tramp's comments are true. HAve never understood how minorities could get ahead by being less educated. Those who can perform equal to "whitey" are in a better position to demand equal treatment. The "self esteem" BS is a large part too. If it is earned that is fine. When we try to produce it from low standards and destroy effective teaching methods then it becomes destructive. I will even agree with the teachers a little. Parents have become lazy. They no longer INSIST their kids work and learn. Look at Asian kids. They very often excell in our crummy schools because education and hard work is very important in their culture. SPORTS are destructive as hell in our schools. More often than not they eat up huge sums of money in construction, maintenance and operating funds. ALL sports programs should be supported by donated funds NOT from taxes!!!!!!!!!!! If a tiny amount of the effort and interest shown in sports at the HS & college level was applied to something worthwhile, our education problems would be severely reduced. BS courses like art have no place in schools. They belong in enrichment programs not as taxpayer funded "education". Overpaid, underworked teachers who went into teaching because there was little else they were qualified for has become a self perpetuating problem. I could go on but this should be enough to start a flame fest!!
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EXACTLY CORRECT!!!
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 6:22:11 AM EDT
All the comments thus far have been very much spot on. A few other things I would add. The government was never intended to or designed to sponsor and fund education. I am unaware of anything in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights which says that the government should be providing education. Enlighten me if I am mistaken. Secondly, if the politicians were truly worried about educating the masses, and the people voted to let the government steal their money through confiscatory taxation to provide this education, then there should be NO objection to a school voucher program given that (generally) private schools have better outcomes for less cost. You don't see that happening though. So the issue of education is not about learning or knowledge, its about power and money. That, in a nutshell, explains why the public education system sucks hind tit. [soapbox][banghead] P.S. Please use the spell check when commenting on education.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 6:41:17 AM EDT
The whole self-esteem thing is a neat new invention for the warm and fuzzy crowd. Back when I was young we had to earn our self-respect, which unfortunately involved setting a standard for ourselves and meeting or exceeding it. Self esteem is a lot easier. It requires only that you feel good about yourself whether you have reason to or not. And here is the beautiful part.... EVERYONE ELSE is repsonsible for YOUR self-esteem. So please if you disagree with my point of view keep it to yourself. Otherwise you'll fail in your duty to safeguard my self-esteem.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 7:04:03 AM EDT
I dropped out of high school. Why? Cuz it fucking sucked. I had 6 different biology teachers in 5 months all teaching different things. We had around 100 teachers quit in our city that year. About 1/2 thru the year I said fuck it.. homeschooled for 3 years and got my Good Enough Diploma. School is overrated. You don't learn much of shit in school. Now college yes its what actually gets you through life. Yes you may learn some english and math in school but it really isn't much. School is the most boring thing I think i've ever done. Hell it was exciting when you got locked out or got caught smoking. We used to dip after lunch in math class. It's not all the students fault.. the teachers don't wanna teach.. example. Teacher says copy these notes, review em tonight, and we will have a test in the morning while I go take a nap on my desk. Ha! about 3/4 of the class will do what the teacher is doing..sleeping. I think I was asleep more in class than awake. Now maybe schools are different from ours.. but here they are worthless and a complete waste of time. Hell you couldn't even learn if you wanted to.. gang shootings in the hallways, bomb threats, and fires take up all your time.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 7:08:33 AM EDT
If your kids are dismal compared with those that I observe, they must be in REALLY bad shape. This isn't a critique because I don't know you, but in my opinion, schools aren't to blame, parents are to blame. Part of the problem seems to be that parents expect the schools to be the parent. Teachers are expected to be disciplinarians and glorified babysitters. Take the situation into your own hands and homeschool them.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 7:12:41 AM EDT
SOL is actually a Republican thing Alot of it is parents really. Stuff I hear that these kids get away with is amazing. Parents are not around as much as they used to be and feel "guilty". So in turn they do not dicipline or punish their kids.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 7:24:52 AM EDT
BenDover is dead-nuts on. Loser parents expect teachers to be baby sitters, then sue the schools butt off as soon as any discipline is attempted. Teachers hands are tied. I'm also REALLY tired of hearing parents (especially gang member parents) say: MY kid would never do that! You're just persecuting him. Our country is in trouble. When these kids get old enough to run this country, we're screwed.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 7:24:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BenDover: Take the situation into your own hands and homeschool them.
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Ayyyymen Brothaaaa! Scott
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 7:27:26 AM EDT
parents. that is the root cause of our schools problems. The selfishness of the parents, and the creation of the 'powerless nanny state school system', one which cannot do anything to promote discipline with its confines, it simply must pass students on from grade to grade learning is secondary to 'graduation', and the failure of the social system in which few (if any) are held to personal account for their actions, have created a population with little or no personal discipline one which expects the 'powerless nanny state' to provide for their needs if they in their laziness and lack of discipline cannot or willnot provide for themselves.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 7:30:16 AM EDT
Yea...what he said.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 7:38:37 AM EDT
In this day and age with public school the parents have to be involved or your kid will fall into the abyss. Parents often interpret school as being a day care for thier little hoodlums; and it is a breeding ground for them if you let it. I am a constant presence at my kids school and all their teachers have my home and cell number. I'm lucky because I work from home and am only a couple blocks away. I tell my kids if they act up I can be at the school within two minutes to straighten the situation. So far they're doing really well. My wife and I adopted her brothers son and he had an incident where he spit in a teachers coffee mug. I was very pissed at him and anticipated serious action by the school. I made an appointment with the schools principal to discuss the matter and the appropriate punishment. My worries were unfounded and he recieved a slap on the wrist.His only punishment was to write a letter of apology to the teacher. His punishment at home was not so lenient.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 7:41:32 AM EDT
haha I got disipline in school.. 5th to 8th grade my ass was red atleast 3 times a year [:D] Hell on a few occasions my mom or dad came down and whooped my ass. And i'm looking forward to whooping my kids when they fuck up like I did. [:D] Homeschooling is much more fun. Like 3 hours a day everyday cept wednesdays. Go smoke when I wanted and could drink or chew gum.. plus it's one on one. My mom didn't teach me but we hired a lady who did. I learned more in those 3 years than I did from 1st-9th grade.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 7:44:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 7:54:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MickeyMouse: Parents have become lazy. They no longer INSIST their kids work and learn.
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This has a lot of truth to it. Both of my parents have been high school teachers for 25 years, and you wouldn't believe some of the stories they tell me about parents insisting this and that. Total BS.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 7:57:51 AM EDT
One thing that many of you seem to ignore and that really gets under my skin is the differences based on geography. Also, having been a teacher, I can tell you that many of your assumptions about teachers are incorrect, at least in my area. I quit teaching Jr. High and High School because I had no authority to discipline kids that were seldom disciplined at home. I was reprimanded for physically breaking up a fight, because I actually "touched" a little bastard that was brutalizing a smaller kid. I did not become a teacher (as had been SIX fucking generations of my family) because: 1) I could not find another job; 2) I was lazy and only wanted to work for 9 months a year; or 3) because I wanted a cushy job where I was overpaid and underworked. Teaching is the single most difficult job I have ever had, and I've had a few in the 25 years I've been in the labor force. Teachers are grossly underpaid for the work done. In Oklahoma, teachers are barely paid enough to survive, and most ROUTINELY spend their own money to buy supplies that should be provided for them. If we have an education problem, nationally, it is easy, but inaccurate, to lay the blame on the teacher. Real life, though, is not so simple. For example, why should teachers be forced to spend their time teaching things that parents should, like basic discipline and decency? Why should teachers be paid a subsistence wage while administrators make six figure salaries? Why are parents rarely involved in the learning process? Sorry for the rant, I just hate to see the same, tired lines being used about blaming teachers. Don't be sheeple and accept what is spoon-fed by folks with a national agenda. How about allowing kids to be punished at school? How about allowing kids to be expelled? How about holdng parents accountable for their children's behavior? A little discipline would go a long way, instead of this pussy crap that liberal pedagogs have been shoveling into our schools. My kids go to a public school, but my wife (yes, a two parent home) and I are involved, and teach our kids decency and disclipline in the home. Rant over.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 8:00:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2003 8:02:33 AM EDT by Avalon01]
[soapbox] Rant from a public school administrator. PARENTS!!!!!!! Every single fricking day I have to deal with parents who don't care about their kids. "Billy would never hit somebody at home." "Jane is not like this at home." Oh, bullshit! If you would actually raise your kids rather than dump them off at school and expect our teachers to babysit your kids all day, they might be well behaved and intelligent. Do you know how many kids we have that can't read by first grade?! Maybe if you would spend some time with your kids and teach them discipline, morals and basic life skills, education wouldn't be so fucked up. Ever wonder WHY tests standards are lowered? PARENTS! They are the ones complaining! "Your test are too hard, blah, blah, blah." No, your kids so fucking stupid he stuck the damn pencil up his nose! Ever wonder why schools are adding pre-K classes for parents to dump their kids off at? PARENTS! They are to damn lazy and cheap to hire a babysitter. Many don't even try to stay home with their kids anymore. Just because you don't care about your kids, shouldn't mean that we are to blame. Our teachers have to deal with stupid, spoiled, snotty kids all day, only because you are to damn lazy to do it yourself. PARENTS are why education is fucked up. Next time you bitch about public school education, take a look in the mirror. Av. Edit: I was so worked up I forgot to spellcheck.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 8:28:55 AM EDT
I aint need no skool nohow Me reel smart to!
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 9:05:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2003 9:07:45 AM EDT by KBaker]
The problem is not simple, nor did it just spring up in the last few years. It took [i]decades[/i] to get to this position, and both Democrats [b]and[/b] Republicans contributed to it. Step I: Families in which both parents worked caused a change in attitude towards schooling. To a large extent, the school was looked at as babysitter. Step II: The people responsible for setting the educational agenda (at about the same time as Step I) started screwing with the curriculum, ostensibly in an effort to decrease drop-out rates. What they actually did was begin the "dumbing-down" process. Step III: The lawyers in conjunction with the "Not [i]MY[/i] Child!" crowd effectively stripped disciplinary powers from the teachers and higher administration, and then [i]FORCED[/i] the schools to keep disruptive kids in the classroom - thus providing the opportunity to destroy what little learning that still could be accomplished. Step IV: After a generation or two of this, the parents of the kids in school were the products of the fvcked-up system themselves, and now the problem begins to build geometrically. Instead of 1-5% of the kids being trouble, the proportion starts to edge up. The curriculum gets stupider and stupider so that it can be "more inclusive." The restrictions on teachers becomes even worse. The number of administrators (where the $$ and power is, and where they don't have to interact with the new crop of little monsters directly) mushrooms. Step V: Somewhere in there somebody noted the building crisis. So, as government always does, it created a new bureaucracy and threw billions of dollars at the problem. And made it worse. The people now in charge of "education" are the fvcked up product of the system, and "Political Correctness" becomes policy. So now, you reach today - where it is still (barely) possible to get a decent education in many public school systems, but very difficult. In some, it's not possible at all. Regardless, it's much easier to slide by doing the minimum, and avoid learning much of anything - and parents are to blame for allowing that. I've got two grandchildren, one's four and one's three. I don't know how we're going to make sure they get a good education, but we are.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 9:29:13 AM EDT
Damn, Kbaker does it again. Says what I wanted to say, more eloquently, and more accurately, than I could. One thing I will share, I saw on the news the other day that in one 8th grade class here only 1/4 or 1/3 passed the state mandated 'profciency' test to move on the 9th grade (last I heard, before the local media which it seems is run out of the memphis mayors office at times shut up about the situation, is the were 'discussing' what to do about the situation, but I have a feeling that all the 'failing' students will simply move on to 9th grade no questions asked). And another school which was a 'charter' school (meaning it is supposedly one of the 'better' schools for learning) was caught falsifying test data in order to perform according to 'plan'.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 9:52:44 AM EDT
To anyone who is a public school teacher...I salute you! I don't know how anyone could stand to teach in what equates to a large child detention center! What I find to the problem is - 1.PARENTS-this has been elaborated,so I need to not say much. It's simple-you have a kid,it's YOUR responsiblity to raise, discipline, and see to it that the kid is taught properly. None of this "it takes a village" crap. My step-father and monther did a great job rasing me to respect people, work hard, and have goals and dreams(and to make them come true!) I feel lucky my stepfather was a military man who gave me the disicipline that it took to be a good person. 2.Dumbing down effect-Again..this has been elaborated on. When I was in 8th grade in the late 80s, I had to take a test on the US Constitution or FAIL the grade.WE spent a few weeks on it, I studied my A$$ off,and I got a A on it(98% in fact!). Now..they don't teach the gov anymore, and if they do, they warp it to liberal,PC means. Ignorance is strength anyone? The more stupid people are, the easier they are to control in the future. Those are the biggest two.. It all adds up-today's biggest heros are pro sports players, drug dealers, etc..who wants to work for anything, when all you have to do is play ball or deal drugs? Who wants to work for anything? I taught guitar for a year once..I gave it up for the "dumb down" reasons. Everyone thinks that it's easy to play cleanly and fast...I have spent HOURS in practice, sitting down going through excersies and reading up on theory, etc. They get PISSED when they can't play like their guitar hero RIGHT off the bat! They have no idea how much work those people put into their crafe/art, and have no idea that something like that takes work! Did someone not tell that anything that you want to do takes time to learn and master? I am 29, and I saw the start of dumbing down in school. I felt this way when I was 24!
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 10:00:14 AM EDT
yeah...blame the schools. hell, blame the jews, while you are at it...and the russian commies...and those cunning red chinese...and let's not forget the liberals and minorities and soda pop. do you really want to know why your little johnny can't read? look in the mirror.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 10:04:32 AM EDT
No competition. If you really want to improve the schools introduce competition. We don't accept the failure of some children and so we reduce standards to accomodate all. We should let some fail for the others to see the dire consequences of failure. We should eliminate welfare to heighten the consequences of failure in school. The world needs ditchdiggers too. The National Education Association (Teamsters with Tits) are a bunch of socialists--go read their yearly resolutions sometime and see. An appathetic nation has allowed them to control ours schools. Most parents don't care what their kids do so long as it doesn't affect them. 357mag
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 10:15:08 AM EDT
(crotchety old man voice) It's the kids.. with their MTV and their hulla-hoops and their extreme soda drinks and the rock and roll music and the hippin' and a hoppin' and the bippin' and the boppin' and ya can't even hit 'em no more and (trails off into mumbling and incoherant babble) sad thing is , I'm in My 20's and I kind do really feel this way sometimes.... t
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 10:16:07 AM EDT
Mostly the parents. My wife is a freshly minted teacher and puts her heart and soul into teaching 25 first graders every day. The kids who are in trouble have piece of shit parents who are so messed up themselves it's a wonder their kids ever made it to 6 yrs. old. Trust me, by and large, it's not the schools' fault. Blaming the schools for bad education is just like blaming your daddy for spanking you at your murder trial.
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