[ARCHIVED THREAD] - A Question For Christians... (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/28/2003 7:03:49 PM EDT
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I had a bit of fun with Johnphin on this topic: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=183802[/url] But it raised a issue I hadn't really thought of. Is fear of God/Hell the only thing that keeps you moral or ethical? Are your morals "purely" a result of religious convctions and/or teachings? If there was no god would you really be barbaric murdering savages? I ask this not to offend but because the reverse of the equation has been suggested (ie. without religion one cannot be moral.) I'm going to "assume" that the majority of people (including Christians) would be decent and ethical (moral?) even if God/religion did not exists. Is that a correct assumption? |
| If someone really pisses me off I don't have the urge to kill them blunted by my faith in God. Though believing in God and his commandmants may be a foundation where children learn right from wrong as you grow older the morals and norms of society become more ingrained so it becomes almost second nature. If there was no society to speak of then the story might be very different ( a'la Mad Max). |
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FEAR plays a role. But my obedience to God is similar in nature to why I honor my marriage vows. Because I love my Saviour / wife. Christ gave His life for me. Can I give less than all my life for Him??? Hebrews refers to this as our "reasonable service." It ONLY MAKES SENSE we give all for teh one who gave all for us. But when I do err and get involved in sin, fear of a just, holy, righteous almighty God who is of purer eyes than to behold iniquity does play a role in setting me straight. As always Auggie, you ask some good questions. |
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Quoted: FEAR plays a role. But my obedience to God is similar in nature to why I honor my marriage vows. Because I love my Saviour / wife. Christ gave His life for me. Can I give less than all my life for Him??? Hebrews refers to this as our "reasonable service." It ONLY MAKES SENSE we give all for teh one who gave all for us. But when I do err and get involved in sin, fear of a just, holy, righteous almighty God who is of purer eyes than to behold iniquity does play a role in setting me straight. As always Auggie, you ask some good questions. Pretty well said. I don't think that FEAR is the primary motivating factor, but that doesn't mean that religion isn't. I think that sinve I've been old enough to know, I've always beleived in God, so it's hard to say what I would be like if I didn't have that belief. However, if God told me that I could commit all of these sins, and face no fear of Hell what so ever, be He also told me that he didn't want me to do those things, I don't think that I would. Just like garandman said with the whole wife analogy, if I were married and my wife asked me to take out the trash, I don't think that I would do it out of fear that she would divorce me. I would probably just do it out of respect for her wishes. |
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I believe a lot of people think that because religion teaches morality, it is the source of morality. I feel like I have a pretty good moral compass but I'm not at all religious. I'm not anti-religion, I'm just not religious. I think it comes from your upbringing. But my parents weren't religious either. edited to add: To answer your question Steyer, no, I think the majority of people would still be decent human beings, though society as we know it would be totally different. |
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I believe that Russian writer Fyodor Dostoevsky said it best: 'Why, if there is no God, then I am God.' If mankind is left to its own devices, the results will be as we see it in the non-Judeo-Christian world. Lousy. From any point of view. Eric The(ThanksForAsking!)Hun[>]:)] |
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Quoted: [b]SteyrAUG wrote[/b] [b]Even as a very small child I just inherently understood some things were "wrong." [/b] So where did the "inherent" feeling come from? Well if you fully quoted me, I said... "Simply, I value "my life" so other lives must have similar value. And I will respect that value until it is forfeited (example: they try and kill "me")." Now on to what you implied... IF this rationale, deduction, logic IS inherently from GOD then why do we need religious teachings IF this knowledge is divinely inspired. For whatever reason I was able to figure out a great deal from a young age without the Church or the Bible. if the source of my understanding is STILL GOD then why do we need the church or Bible? And still my original question persits...IF God did not exist would those of you who profess to be Christian be barbaric, murdering savages? Ediited to add: ar10er DID answer that question. |
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Quoted: Quoted: [b]SteyrAUG wrote[/b] [b]Even as a very small child I just inherently understood some things were "wrong." [/b] So where did the "inherent" feeling come from? Well if you fully quoted me, I said... "Simply, I value "my life" so other lives must have similar value. And I will respect that value until it is forfeited (example: they try and kill "me")." Now on to what you implied... IF this rationale, deduction, logic IS inherently from GOD then why do we need religious teachings IF this knowledge is divinely inspired. For whatever reason I was able to figure out a great deal from a young age without the Church or the Bible. if the source of my understanding is STILL GOD then why do we need the church or Bible? And still my original question persits...IF God did not exist would those of you who profess to be Christian be barbaric, murdering savages? Ediited to add: ar10er DID answer that question. I did, I do not know. And like I said, what is moral to one, could be imoral to another. To repeat, if man sets the morals, then there are no limits. Plain logic. |
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Quoted: So are you guys say that IF God didn't exist that YOU GUYS would be barbaric murdering savages? Even non-Christians have a conscience that compels them to do right. Two questions then follow: 1. Would the conscience exist if God didn't exist? 2. How much will an individual INENTIONALLY override his conscience?? For me personally, I know that ANY good that is in me (if any) is due SOLELY to what Jesus Christ has done in my life. |
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And this brings up another question. IF somebody threatens my life or my loved ones, I WILL KILL THEM. I have no faith in divine retribution and little faith in the Justice System. Would you? Being Christian would you kill someone trying to murder you or your loved ones? Is vengence the sole domain of God? Aren't you all going to Heaven anyway? What about after the fact? What if you could not prevent it but arrived on the scene AFTER your family was murdered? Would you execute the killer personally or leave it to God? And if so, what is your justification? |
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Quoted: Quoted: So are you guys say that IF God didn't exist that YOU GUYS would be barbaric murdering savages? Even non-Christians have a conscience that compels them to do right. Two questions then follow: 1. Would the conscience exist if God didn't exist? 2. How much will an individual INENTIONALLY override his conscience?? For me personally, I know that ANY good that is in me (if any) is due SOLELY to what Jesus Christ has done in my life. Question 1 cannot be answered. To answer it one must prove God does or does not exist. Question 2 would be according to each individuals character and values. For me I live by a notion of "Right Action." It is a concept that has it's roots in Confuciansim (the philosphy and not the bastardization that evolved into a psuedo religion) and the concept of the "superior man" or Sage. Basically one does what it "right" because it is "right." The right action is usually the hardest course. There is no punishment or incentive, you follow "right action" simply because it is "right." |
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For me personally. I'd have to say that how I govern my life, after my salvation, really only changed little by little. As I renewed my mind, or way of thinking to God's word. As I brought good teaching into my storehouse, it replaced the garbage that I had been thought through life's experience. The bible is the "red pill" if you will. As my mind began to see things from God's perspective, I began to understand the freedom I have been given. I can sleep with all the whores I want to now, I can use all the drugs I want to now, I can murder, steal,& smoke cigarettes all I want to now.[:D]I just don't want to anymore. God's word says "He whom the Son has set free, is free in deed" I'm free to do as I choose. I just don't want any of that garbage in my life anymore. That is freedom. I'm free to choose the good stuff God provides instead. To me, the fear of God = respecting God. He is my ABBA Father. My dad. I respect his wishes, because I want his approval, just like humans desire the approval of their earthly fathers. I desire his friendship, leadership, help, love, kindness, strength, just like I do my physical father, & I desire to be a good son, that doesn't embarrass him in any way, or bring disgrace to his light. As far as conscience goes. I believe that still small voice we hear telling us not to do something bad is the Holly Spirit. The bible talks about searing our conscience by repeatedly doing wrong. Basically turning a deaf ear to the Spirit, until we become deaf to him, & don't even notice his speaking to us anymore. |
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There are plenty of good reasons to be ethical and just without a belief in God. Religion or lack of religion does not guarentee morals. I believe I would try to live the same moral life I am (trying) to live now if I did not believe in God. That being said, I will say now that yes, fear does play a part in my worship of God, how could it not? But I also think that Love plays a much larger part. I want to do good because that is what pleases God, just as sin displeases God and I try to avoid it. |
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I'll take a shot at some of your questions... It is important to understand what the Bible says about man. It says, "There is none righteous, no, not one." That means just what it says; none of us are righteous. You asked: IF this rationale, deduction, logic IS inherently from GOD then why do we need religious teachings IF this knowledge is divinely inspired. For whatever reason I was able to figure out a great deal from a young age without the Church or the Bible. if the source of my understanding is STILL GOD then why do we need the church or Bible? The issue is not "do we know right from wrong?". The question is actually, "Can we do right?" We all know that murder is wrong (except for a few true psychopaths). Jesus stated that while we may not actually murder someone, if we hate them so badly we [u]want[/u] to kill them, it is the same thing. The truth is that I am unable to live a perfect life. I constantly want to sin and do wrong. Social mores sometimes prevent me from doing the actual deed, but I still want to. God says this is sin. What then can I do? Paul faced the same question. In the 7th Chapter of Romans he says in effect, "The things I don't want to do, I do all the time. the things I want to do, I don't do. Oh, who can save me from this?" He answer; Jesus Christ. I think the answer to your question is complicated by the fact that non-Christians think that Christians are "saved" by not committing sins. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are saved as a "gift" from God. By accepting Jesus as my Savior, He then helps me resist the urge to do wrong. But if I do wrong anyway, He will forgive me and continue to teach me how to live. Non-Christians also fail. They recognize this because of the inherent understanding of wrong that you spoke about. But they do not enjoy the forgiveness of God nor do they learn from their mistakes and go on. They are just frustrated by their inability to live "righteous" lives. So "if logic IS inherently from GOD then why do we need religious teachings IF this knowledge is divinely inspired?" You don't need religious teachings. You need Jesus. Just like I did. He is the answer to this puzzle. |
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One of the basic concepts of the Christian worldview is the fallen state of man. That is, sin (violation of God's will) is part of our nature. We tend to rebel against authority and set ourselves up as our own god. For examples of mankind's nature without the restraining influence of the Judeo-Christian value system, look to the tribal wars in Africa, the history of communist regimes, and the Arab world. What would I do without the principles of Christianity governing my life? I don't know, but I'm certain it would be self-centered and quite ugly at times. My primary motivation for trying to obey God and live according to His principles is gratitude for the mercy He has shown me. I am awed that the omnipotent Creator of all loves me enough to desire a personal relationship. Then, when I consider the price He paid to restore that relationship I'm humbled beyond description. Yes, fear is a factor. If God is who He says He is, if He is the Righteous Judge, then it would be foolish not to fear Him. However, it's not like an abused child living in terror of an abusive father. It is a reverent fear. It is understanding who He is and who we are. I don't fear Him in the sense that I'm "afraid" of Him. I'm awed & humbled in His presence. I'm not sure if that accuratelt described what I'm trying to say, but I hope it helps. |
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Quoted: So are you guys say that IF God didn't exist that YOU GUYS would be barbaric murdering savages? |
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If there were no God yet all the same structure and government that we have today, then man would be somewhat a moral being still, due to the threat of civil/criminal law. However, if there wouldn't be law (since it flows from Him anyway) and there wouldn't be people either... For Christians there are a few players. Fear of God's Law/Wrath, Fear of man's law, which, as I said earlier, comes from God, even if men don't believe in Him. He instills in us that feeling or understanding that something is wrong behavior. The sinful state of man has dulled and blurred that, but it's still there. That's why you need "religious teaching." As far as active obedience, the sinful state of man leaves him in a state of concupiscence, or a continual "tilt" away from God. We can't do anything to avoid this aversion, but as a Christian, Christ lives in me, and that is the only source of any real obedience to God. St. Paul wrote that "It is no longer I that live, but Christ lives in me" and the Bible also tells us that "Without Christ it is impossible to please God." As for killing the man threatening you or your family, I certainly would kill him, and God is OK with that. To allow my family or myself to be killed by a criminal is to not take life seriously, and to hold this gift of God in contempt. Complacency in the murder of my neighbor is to murder him/her myself. After the fact? How long after? Have the authorities captured him? If so, I would let them take it from there. If I knew who it was and encountered him on the street, I would attempt to detain him and if threatened, Kill him. If not threatened, I guess I would let the authorities handle it. This is what I say I would do. What I would actually do? Not sure, but nothing I do would not be tainted by sin, so I wouldn't even do the right thing right. THe good news is that there is forgiveness in Christ, who died to pay for the sinful way I do things. That's not a license to do wrong, it's just a fact. Hope this is helpful. Scott |
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A comparison of the American and French Revolutions would further illustrate the point. The American Revolution occurred in a society that was largely Christian and resulted in a relatively stable, orderly society. The French Revolution occurred in a society that was largely humanistic in its philosophy, resulting in the Terror with the guillotines working overtime. Heck, look at the French today- they still haven't come very far! A Chrsitian sees himself as being accountable to God for his actions. Therefore, he is self-restrained in his passions and strives to do what is right (imperfectly, of course, but we're trying!). |
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Quoted: I would like to know, what those who do not believe, base their morals on? After all, if man sets the limits, then what is moral to one, might be imoral to another. This is exactly the system we have now, even among those calling themselves Christians, men are setting the limits. Everyone has their own interpretation of the teachings of Christ and will use one or another doctrine to justify their actions. I don't see where religion is setting any boundaries. For example, there are "Christians" who support abortion rights. There are "Christians" who support killing doctors who perform abortions. Both think they are following the will of God. Both are actually following their own will and justifying it one way or another with religious doctrine. |
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Quoted: Faulty logic. You are using narrow exceptions to make a broad generalization. I don't think that "Christians" who support abortion rights are a narrow exception, since most people in the US purport to be Christian, and most support abortion rights. The killing of abortion doctors is on the lunatic fringe, but it does illustrate that there are very broadly differing interpretations of Christianity out there and just about any conceivable action has been justified in its name. |
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Though this is all hypothetical, since I know Jesus died for my sins, and His Father watches us, I'll say this: 1. IF there were no God/god I would still not rob little old ladies of their Social Security checks (yeah, I know some will ask if there would even be such a thing - it's my hypothetical situation). Idle philosophers can speculate on their own. 2. Anyone messes with my family would be treated the same as now. Minor, I'll walk away or move; major, they die. I will answer to the Lord at His command. They mess with me, I'll walk away from the first incident, and grind up into little pieces on the second. 3. I will not cheat anyone, whether He is watching or not. 4. In my scenario, I am accountable to myself for what I do. In reality, He will judge me at His pleasure. 5. I will lie, cheat, steal and drink as follows. I will lie to save a friend, (try to) cheat death, steal a young maiden's heart (well, that was many years ago), and drink only with good friends. (With apologies to Hemingway) |
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When I first started out, as a new Christian, in my walk with GOD, it was out of fear. Fear of facing eternity in a burning hell. Now I continue to follow Christ, out of love and thankfulness for the love, grace and mercy that HE has given me. I did nothing to earn this, and I certainly did not/do not deserve it. The only fear I have now, is shaming his name through my actions. By not living or behaving as I should in the eyes of the world. Christ was/is perfect, I am not. I have been forgiven, am forgiven, and will continue to be forgiven, until the end of my days here on earth. I would like to think that I would have the same sense of right and wrong, ethics, morales if I were not a Christian, but I can not say absolutely that I would. Let me put it this way, I would probably follow the letter of the law, if not the spirit of the law. Such as if I found a bag with $2,000,000 in it, I would probably keep it if it was not in a bank bag or a bag with clear identifing ownership markings. As a Christian, I would try my best to find the owner, using what ever means necessary. Maybe not the best example, but the best I could come up with right now. dave |
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Quoted: A comparison of the American and French Revolutions would further illustrate the point. The American Revolution occurred in a society that was largely Christian and resulted in a relatively stable, orderly society. The French Revolution occurred in a society that was largely humanistic in its philosophy, resulting in the Terror with the guillotines working overtime. Heck, look at the French today- they still haven't come very far! A Chrsitian sees himself as being accountable to God for his actions. Therefore, he is self-restrained in his passions and strives to do what is right (imperfectly, of course, but we're trying!). That's a good illustration brohawk. One can see the multigenerational outworkings of God/No God, in both nations as time goes on... |
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Quoted: Quoted: Faulty logic. You are using narrow exceptions to make a broad generalization. I don't think that "Christians" who support abortion rights are a narrow exception, since most people in the US purport to be Christian, and most support abortion rights. The killing of abortion doctors is on the lunatic fringe, but it does illustrate that there are very broadly differing interpretations of Christianity out there and just about any conceivable action has been justified in its name. Actually I find that a very intriging insight since we are discussing what seems for the most part Christian morals. You made the same comparrison Brohawk. You state that non-Judeo-Christian value systems are worse off than their counterparts while a post later you say the French revolution lead to buchery because they were humanistic despite the fact that I would bet almost every Frenchmen then was Christian. I do not think being Christian has anything to do with being moral. The society you live in will decide what is moral. Do you think an atheist in Cuba has to fight urges to go out and butcher people? I think not. If this was the case man would have never developed beyond his humble beginnings. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I would like to know, what those who do not believe, base their morals on? After all, if man sets the limits, then what is moral to one, might be imoral to another. This is exactly the system we have now, even among those calling themselves Christians, men are setting the limits. Everyone has their own interpretation of the teachings of Christ and will use one or another doctrine to justify their actions. I don't see where religion is setting any boundaries. For example, there are "Christians" who support abortion rights. There are "Christians" who support killing doctors who perform abortions. Both think they are following the will of God. Both are actually following their own will and justifying it one way or another with religious doctrine. You are incorrect, this nation was founded on the word of God. This is where our basis in laws came from. Benjamin Franklin wrote: If you take away the bible, you may just as well tear up the constititution. I know there are many who do not agree with this, but, that still don't make it so. As an example, as we, as a nation, turn our back on God we can see the results. ie: school shootings, mothers killing their children, children killing their parents, etc..... You are also incorrect in your statement that most Americans agree with aborition. Most Americans so not, it is only the SCOTUS that pulled this "right" out of thin air. |
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We are a country based on God and most Americans would say they believe in God. Why then, do we have per capita more violent crimes than Japan or even Singapore which is not a Christian country and not based on the Bible? Japan: 1220:100,000 Singapore: 24:100 U.S.: 5460:100,000 Now if we look at it by stating that we use the Christian religion as a base for our societal morals, I can agree with that. But it is the societal morals and not the Christian religion which makes us behave the way we do in society. |
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Quoted: Actually I find that a very intriging insight since we are discussing what seems for the most part Christian morals. You made the same comparrison Brohawk. You state that non-Judeo-Christian value systems are worse off than their counterparts while a post later you say the French revolution lead to buchery because they were humanistic despite the fact that I would bet almost every Frenchmen then was Christian. I do not think being Christian has anything to do with being moral. The society you live in will decide what is moral. Do you think an atheist in Cuba has to fight urges to go out and butcher people? I think not. If this was the case man would have never developed beyond his humble beginnings. You would be wrong about the French. Actually, very few of them were Christians at that time in history. They were, by and large, mostly agnostics. Secular Humanism was the favored religion of that day. The same is true of modern day France. Actual Christian churches in America send missionaries to France today, just like sending them to Africa. France is not a Christian nation in any sense of the word. To say, "If this was the case man would have never developed beyond his humble beginnings.", kind of cracks me up. Whatever makes you think that mankind in general has "Developed beyond his humble beginnings." Look at the Iraqis today. Two weeks ago they were crying and thanking us for their freedom. Today they are looting, stealing, and shooting at us again. Doesn't sound like they have advanced much to me. That's because the Iraqis, the French, and the rest of us are just sinners. Selfish, unthankful, wanting what they want instead of what God wants, etc. They don't need new morals. They need to meet Jesus. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Actually I find that a very intriging insight since we are discussing what seems for the most part Christian morals. You made the same comparrison Brohawk. You state that non-Judeo-Christian value systems are worse off than their counterparts while a post later you say the French revolution lead to buchery because they were humanistic despite the fact that I would bet almost every Frenchmen then was Christian. I do not think being Christian has anything to do with being moral. The society you live in will decide what is moral. Do you think an atheist in Cuba has to fight urges to go out and butcher people? I think not. If this was the case man would have never developed beyond his humble beginnings. You would be wrong about the French. Actually, very few of them were Christians at that time in history. They were, by and large, mostly agnostics. Secular Humanism was the favored religion of that day. The same is true of modern day France. Actual Christian churches in America send missionaries to France today, just like sending them to Africa. France is not a Christian nation in any sense of the word. To say, "If this was the case man would have never developed beyond his humble beginnings.", kind of cracks me up. Whatever makes you think that mankind in general has "Developed beyond his humble beginnings." Look at the Iraqis today. Two weeks ago they were crying and thanking us for their freedom. Today they are looting, stealing, and shooting at us again. Doesn't sound like they have advanced much to me. That's because the Iraqis, the French, and the rest of us are just sinners. Selfish, unthankful, wanting what they want instead of what God wants, etc. They don't need new morals. They need to meet Jesus. Our country is a little over 200 years old. How many other great cultures were there that did not follow Jesus. If we had no societal norms then we would still be isolated hunters. Those are the humble beginnings. Man developed norms so that he could live among other men in realitive safety. This has nothing to do with Jesus. Jesus is the foundation that we base our societal norms on. Other societies have used something else. Humanistic thoughts began about three hundred years before. While popular among the intellectuals and aristocrats it did not represent the public at large. Jefferson, Washington, Paine, and Franklin were influenced by Engish and to some extent French enlightenment. The concept of equality is a term championed by Rouseau that influeneced American founders. In fact inherent freedoms is a concept of enlightenment. Enlighenment did not just happen in France but throughout Europe. England got through their revolution a century before with the beheading of a king and teachings of Locke and Hume became dynamite when exported to France. The difference between the two was the decline of power of English aristcracy and religion happened slowly; in France it happened quickly. America escaped much of the pains of enlighenment because of the distance from Europe and the fact that we did not have a true aristocratic class or dominent church. France has been and still is a predomintly Catholic country. |
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Quoted: I know there are many who do not agree with this, but, that still don't make it so. As an example, as we, as a nation, turn our back on God we can see the results. ie: school shootings, mothers killing their children, children killing their parents, etc..... Cain and Able? Please do not suggest that in a religious society these things don't exist. The entire Middle East is a religious society. |
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Quoted: Quoted: So are you guys say that IF God didn't exist that YOU GUYS would be barbaric murdering savages? Feel free to remove the word "fear." The question remains... Is the Church, God, Bible the ONLY thing that makes a Chrisitan moral? if those things did NOT exist would every Christian be a barbaric savage? Many Christians have suggested that morality can ONLY come from God, Bible or Church. I am asking if the reverse is true. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So are you guys say that IF God didn't exist that YOU GUYS would be barbaric murdering savages? Feel free to remove the word "fear." The question remains... Is the Church, God, Bible the ONLY thing that makes a Chrisitan moral? if those things did NOT exist would every Christian be a barbaric savage? Many Christians have suggested that morality can ONLY come from God, Bible or Church. I am asking if the reverse is true. It is quite true. I will bring up two from my faith: the Inquisition and currently the churches handling of the molestation cases. In both cases man has brought immoralness to the faith. How many people have died because of religion? |
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Quoted: You are incorrect, this nation was founded on the word of God. This is where our basis in laws came from. Benjamin Franklin wrote: If you take away the bible, you may just as well tear up the constititution. Can you please source that Ben Franklin quote? It certainly does NOT sound like Franklin and I cannot find it anywhere. Here is a real Franklin quote: Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention, said: As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian. Sourced: The Founding Fathers Were Not Christians [url]http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/founders.htm[/url] Finally of those who DID believe in Christianity. Keep in mind this was over 200 years ago. We believed LOTS of things. Not too much earlier we believed in witches at Salem. But should we embrace all ancient superstitions that came with great men and great things? When we practice philosophy should we worship the Gods of the ancient Greeks? When we practice advanced architecture should we worship the ancient Egyptian Gods? The Romans created democratic government, should Jupiter be honored everytime we vote? |
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Morality, as an isolated term, is actually very subjective. The question is [i]whose[/i] morality will you choose? For example, to a communist anything that advances communism is moral, whether it is lying, imprisonment, murder, etc. Adolph Hitler had a system of morality. Ghandi had a system of morality. Jesus of Nazareth had a system of morality. YOU have a system of morality. The key is in defining it and ensuring it has a solid foundation underneath it. |
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Quoted: Morality, as an isolated term, is actually very subjective. The question is [i]whose[/i] morality will you choose? For example, to a communist anything that advances communism is moral, whether it is lying, imprisonment, murder, etc. Adolph Hitler had a system of morality. Ghandi had a system of morality. Jesus of Nazareth had a system of morality. YOU have a system of morality. The key is in defining it and ensuring it has a solid foundation underneath it. that has been my point more or less but you said it much better. |
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[size=5]Hey, SteyrAUG![/size=5] Thanks for this quote: "He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian." Thank the Lord, I have finally found someone who can give us the Answer: [b]List the 'so many great Americans of his time' who were Deists! I'll start the list of known Deists among the Founding Fathers, and you just add on to this certain-to-be-lengthy listing: 1. Thomas Jefferson. 2. Thomas Paine. 3. Benjamin Franklin (debateable, even the Deism.org site lists him as backsliding into Christianity near the end of his life, but why quibble over Ben?) 4. uh, uh, here's where you'd better take over.. 5. 6. 7. Take as long as you'd like. Should be easy as Hell since as everyone who's listened to modern history on the Boob Tube knows, this was no Christian nation it was a nation of Deists! Take your time. I will check your work, later. Eric The(GiveItTheBestYou'veGot)Hun[>]:)] |
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Thanks, ErictheHun, for once again, posting this question. It never ceases to amaze me when people post about how all the founding fathers were deists and not really Christians. And how that means we aren't actually living in a country founded by Christian men and based on Christian principles. It is a case of "if you just repeat a lie enough, most people will believe it". This lie has been taught in government schools for years now and many believe this lie. I have referred folks to a site, [url]www.wallbuilders.com[/url] several times where the truth is told about the founding fathers. It is filled with their own quotes about what they believed. But many would rather believe a lie, as that is more comfortable for them and their erroneous beliefs. Keep them honest, ETH. I know you will. |
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Quoted: Thanks, ErictheHun, for once again, posting this question. It never ceases to amaze me when people post about how all the founding fathers were deists and not really Christians. And how that means we aren't actually living in a country founded by Christian men and based on Christian principles. It is a case of "if you just repeat a lie enough, most people will believe it". This lie has been taught in government schools for years now and many believe this lie. I have referred folks to a site, [url]www.wallbuilders.com[/url] several times where the truth is told about the founding fathers. It is filled with their own quotes about what they believed. But many would rather believe a lie, as that is more comfortable for them and their erroneous beliefs. Keep them honest, ETH. I know you will. I always disagree with you on these topics but I like to hear your opinions. So do you agree or disagree that in this country we have a secular government based on Christian principles? I have always thought of this country as using the teachings of Christ as a foundation for the laws that govern the nation. However, the laws do not defer to Christianity. In other words, in the eyes of the State, there is no higher law. |