I want to sell a Browning Hi power at a gun show next weekend. How is this going to affect my sale. Does order take affect immediately? WTF

41P takes effect 180 days after it was signed, January 4, 2016. Not sure how it will effect your sale though as I haven't read through all 248 pages.

If you aren't "in the business of" selling guns then it shouldn't effect you at all.

One could argue that it doesn't change anything at all. If it DOES change anything then it is backdoor registration.

Either way...

eta: only 13er's on right now it would seem.  

But what if I want to sell 2 guns? Am I not then considered a "dealer?" This whole thing is a crock of shit.

So the 5 sbrs and silencers I form1'd on a trust almost 2 months ago have a chance of being approved before bullshit happens?

Loretta Lynch said it could affect even someone selling one gun.

That's a confirmed "maybe"..........

Yup. It all depends on whether you are selling guns you took possession of for the purpose of profiting from va selling from your private collection for liquidation purposes. I'm on my phone but the definition by statute of "in the business of selling guns" is floating around. That does not change from what it was before. And that is not strictly dictated by the number of firearms sold, although that could be an indicator.

I'll take an IM as to the details of said Hi Power.

Except the definition of in the business of selling guns now means selling one gun.

The definition has not changed. It is defined by law.

 
If you sell a car, does that make you a car dealer?


If you sell a vacuum cleaner, does that make you an appliance dealer?


They need to clearly define what does and doesn't constitute dealing guns so that people can know what they can do without incriminating themselves. This shit should be slapped down in a court.

It should be...yes.



I guarantee Tyrone and Jose exchanging money for pistol down on MLK and Malcolm X BLVD don't give a shit about what makes someone a gun dealer.



 

It won't.  Because it is not an Order but an Action and are you in the business of selling guns?

An EO is not law.  How can they enforce this with criminal or civil penalties?

 
There is no magic number........so no set number of what makes someone a "for profit gun dealer" means it would make for an interesting court case.  Does selling 1 used car make a person an auto dealer?

In the short term it doesn't change much at all with that transaction.  However, I'm not an overly refined or educated man, but sounds like it's bull-shit to one day cram more bull-shit down our throats. Praise Leader!

So will C&R FFLers become dealers if they sell anything?  Gun enthusiasts should be able to freely acquire, trade and sell firearms and do so without a business model.

This and my guess is when they hire all these new ATF agents they will make a political show piece busting a bunch of people and after their convictions there will be just that many more convicted felons unable to own firearms.

In the meantime criminal mofo's running the streets of D.C.,Chicago and Baltimore etc. will carry on with their murderous activities as usual.

If I'm selling FTF within my state can a federal EO have any jurisdiction over my actions?

What if you want to trade one for another to an FFL?

You can ask twice as much now. Make sure to mention the impending registration to everyone so you can get top dollar.

Depends what that EO is about?

Federal law requires that someone engaged in the business of selling firearms must obtain a federal firearms license (FFL). 18 U.S. Code 923.  The various terms are defined in 18 U.S. Code 921:
(11) The term “dealer” means (A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail, (B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or (C) any person who is a pawnbroker. The term “licensed dealer” means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this chapter.
(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—
(A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;
(B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;
(D) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;
....
((22) The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection; Provided that proof of profit shall not be required as to a person who engages in the regular and repetitive purchase and disposition of firearms for criminal purposes or terrorism

If you bought a gun with the intent to resell at a profit, then yes.  That is the way I took that.

Don't worry the Republicans in congress are not going to fund this illegal action by the President.

The OP's question had to do with other aspects of Obama's announcement, other than 41P. Those things will take even longer than 180 days -- after Notice of Proposed Rulemaking, and the required comment period, it will be well into next year, and the next administration.

The rules for sales at gun shows remain as is for the time being.

This ^ Gun Show peeps that regularly go to shows with their (personal) firearms and buy and sell have always been in violation.
The ATF has traditionally not gone after most of them unless they got wind that it was something more than some gun nuts hobby...
Those days are over. If you expend time, money and energy to make firearms sales for profit or the intention of profit..you are in the bis...

woozman is correct. You guys are reading way too much into this. There is nothing new here regarding selling firearms. That is why there are no new definitions.

Well you both have put my mind to rest.

Neckbeards are fucked.

Please define "In the business of."  Is it one gun?  One thousand guns?  I can tell you right now it will mean whatever they want it to mean when they find someone they want to fuck. This is not a new law.  But I can guarantee there is going to be an escalated effort to use it to fuck law abiding gun owners.  If you think this is a good thing I couldn't disagree more.

It is defined a few (9) posts up. Sorry I'm on my phone and have a hard time quoting it.

Also not really sure where you get the idea that myself or anyone else here thinks this is a good thing?

Yeah, I know what the definition is.  That's what I'm trying to point out.  Its nebulous.  It is very broad and open for interpretation.  And i can guarantee you that he isnt directing the justice dept to interpret it in a way that favors law abiding gun owners.

According to what is being said that now includes sell one or two guns a year.

Thats the problem, its so opened to interpretation that if I decide I want to sell a few guns, my personal assets, an overzealous ATF agent and federal prosecutor might decide to send me to prison and throw away the key.

Thats the scary part.

We're fucked

Basically tard in chief is making crap up.  If defined by law, legislative, he cannot change it.  But hey he does not care one whit about the Constitution.  FBHO

Read the FAQ on that the ATF linked on their Facebook page. It will answer your questions.

Not really, that's ambiguous as hell. Seems like they are saying whether you are in the business of selling is open to (the ATFs) interpretation. Its an open-ended mandate to investigate at will and possibly track sales.

Exactly.  The definition of the law hasn't changed, but the interpretation of it can change, and arrests made based on those interpretations.  Same way a shoelace can be a machine gun, or a spring-loaded butt stock can be legal one minute and contraband the next.  Our overlords are merely tightening the noose one measly thread at a time.  C'mon - they're all just "reasonable" restrictions, amirite?  You want to be a reasonable man, doncha?  

PFFFTTTT.

FBHO

FBATFE



 

It doesn't change anything, unless you are in the business of selling firearms.  Do you print business cards?  Maintain a business based website? Advertise?  Regularly rent a table/selling space at a gunshow where you buy and sell firearms?  If you aren't doing anything else beyond occasionally selling a gun, then just like before, you are good to go.

Yeah, but who defines business, per the ATF:


https://www.atf.gov/file/3871/download

I always intend on selling a firearm I have bought at a profit, someday.  I haven't bought a gun in probably two years, but I have sold 5 that I owned for about 10 years.  Everyone that I sold, I sold at a profit because I wasn't going to take less than what they were worth.

I then used the money to buy accessories for the rifles I owned to expand and improve my collection as a collector and hobbyist.

I have never had a gun that went down in value.  I have sold some 20+ years after I bought them and though I sold them for more than they were purchased for 20 years earlier, I screwed up and sold them for much less than they were currently going for.  I was surprised when I got 10 "I'll take it" replies to my newly posted ad for a 1986 S&W model 19 Combat before I could even refresh the page when I sold it in 2008.

Seems to me that 1)  what ever happened to Congress making laws? and 2) this opens a huge door to a new black market thank you very much.  Cash deal = no trace.  Another brilliant move by our lord (note the small 'l') and master to opening new business enterprises for us lowly kurlucks.

By the way current law is written, it always could have.

I have not subscribed to Mr. Obama's newsletter...

FBHO

Still not true according to the law, which has not changed. Livelihood AND Profit are key. Any gun I have ever sold has been strictly to further my hobby. Nothing whatsoever to provide for my "livelihood".