[ARCHIVED THREAD] - electrical grid experts? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 11/30/2015 8:13:16 PM EDT
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Got a question. This weekend there was a sizable ice storm in central OK, brought down a ton of poles and people will be running on generators for weeks probably. Why can't they make the lines thaw themselves? Reduce voltage, up the amps and let the resistance do the work. There are obvious downsides to this, but in certain applications I can see it being very beneficial. Apps like main feeds with looped services, critical demands, and customers just willing to pay for it. Right now at work were missing about a million bucks a day in revenue due to AC service failure. I'm thinkin the dollars are there to justify some extra hardware. |
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All our crews are in OK replacing lines Ice gets on the lines and snaps poles you can tell where this goes 75-80 Men and trucks out that way working 12-16 hours shifts We appreciate that. Our field hands have been putting in quite a few hours as well. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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I'll bet you can get ( quantity FOUR ) V-12 Caterpillar generator sets,with total of 20 megawatts online for around a million dollars.. The HP is to turn compressors, so if I wanted a bank of 3616's I'd attach them to big 6-throw Ariels. But then I'd be back in my emissions headache. And no, you won't be doing that for a million bucks, maybe 1 unit but I doubt it. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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I don't understand why they just don't put them underground like cable or fiber optic. This is the best solution. Very costly to retrofit though. OP's idea is interesting but unworkable in reality. Ohmic losses are kept very low in the grid intentionally, for obvious reasons. And going to a lower voltage/higher current condition would require many transformers to be wired to different taps (which don't really exist on the transformers to begin with) so it's gonna be more work to restructure than the work to fix the problems. You wouldn't want the high loss condition to exist year-round. Plus, ice storms also take trees out which then take out the power lines and self-defrosting power lines won't help that. |
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Quoted: Sure would. But I doubt it would spin 20,000hp in electric motors. Plus you'd have to deal with the emissions regs on that genset, large emissions aren't cheap either. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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This is the best solution. Very costly to retrofit though. OP's idea is interesting but unworkable in reality. Ohmic losses are kept very low in the grid intentionally, for obvious reasons. And going to a lower voltage/higher current condition would require many transformers to be wired to different taps (which don't really exist on the transformers to begin with) so it's gonna be more work to restructure than the work to fix the problems. You wouldn't want the high loss condition to exist year-round. Plus, ice storms also take trees out which then take out the power lines and self-defrosting power lines won't help that. Quoted:
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I don't understand why they just don't put them underground like cable or fiber optic. This is the best solution. Very costly to retrofit though. OP's idea is interesting but unworkable in reality. Ohmic losses are kept very low in the grid intentionally, for obvious reasons. And going to a lower voltage/higher current condition would require many transformers to be wired to different taps (which don't really exist on the transformers to begin with) so it's gonna be more work to restructure than the work to fix the problems. You wouldn't want the high loss condition to exist year-round. Plus, ice storms also take trees out which then take out the power lines and self-defrosting power lines won't help that. Those are all the downsides I'd considered. For this to be workable it would need easy switching between high and low resistance modes, preferably infinitely with closed loop feedback. And ya, screw burying cables. Dealing in buried assets like that is a PITA. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Got a question. This weekend there was a sizable ice storm in central OK, brought down a ton of poles and people will be running on generators for weeks probably. Why can't they make the lines thaw themselves? Reduce voltage, up the amps and let the resistance do the work. There are obvious downsides to this, but in certain applications I can see it being very beneficial. Apps like main feeds with looped services, critical demands, and customers just willing to pay for it. Right now at work were missing about a million bucks a day in revenue due to AC service failure. I'm thinkin the dollars are there to justify some extra hardware. If your company is losing $1MM/day, then they need to negotiate a better contract with the power co. |
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Right. Because UG HV is just like cable or FO. I guess you wouldn't mind the higher power bills. Quoted:
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I don't understand why they just don't put them underground like cable or fiber optic. Right. Because UG HV is just like cable or FO. I guess you wouldn't mind the higher power bills. Seeing as how they already do it all over the world, including parts of the US, it would not seem to be that crazy of a suggestion. Oh, the drama. 
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Care to elaborate? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted:
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Why can't they make the lines thaw themselves? Reduce voltage, up the amps and let the resistance do the work That's not how it works Care to elaborate? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Changing the voltage will change the current while the resistance stays constant. Oh and all the broken lines won't let anything flow. |
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Those are all the downsides I'd considered. For this to be workable it would need easy switching between high and low resistance modes, preferably infinitely with closed loop feedback. And ya, screw burying cables. Dealing in buried assets like that is a PITA. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted:
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I don't understand why they just don't put them underground like cable or fiber optic. This is the best solution. Very costly to retrofit though. OP's idea is interesting but unworkable in reality. Ohmic losses are kept very low in the grid intentionally, for obvious reasons. And going to a lower voltage/higher current condition would require many transformers to be wired to different taps (which don't really exist on the transformers to begin with) so it's gonna be more work to restructure than the work to fix the problems. You wouldn't want the high loss condition to exist year-round. Plus, ice storms also take trees out which then take out the power lines and self-defrosting power lines won't help that. Those are all the downsides I'd considered. For this to be workable it would need easy switching between high and low resistance modes, preferably infinitely with closed loop feedback. And ya, screw burying cables. Dealing in buried assets like that is a PITA. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile How would this work? And the losses in winter would drive $/kWh through the roof. |
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Not even close. But thanks for trying. Quoted:
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I'll bet you can get ( quantity FOUR ) V-12 Caterpillar generator sets,with total of 20 megawatts online for around a million dollars.. Not even close. But thanks for trying. Exactly, not even close.. I lol when I read that. The V-16 GM34 in the video below came from Germany. http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=cm34&FORM=HDRSC3#view=detail&mid=3C27DAB684243DF175EA3C27DAB684243DF175EA You'll need a building, site work, special foundations, exhaust system, sound damping, natural gas supply, radiator bank, piping for coolant, a substation, control system, etc. That's way more than a million dollars... |
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some of the small oil&gas combustion turbines are pretty low emission wise. Don't even have SCR's. Cost more than a million, but you would be running just fine right now. Quoted:
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Sure would. But I doubt it would spin 20,000hp in electric motors. Plus you'd have to deal with the emissions regs on that genset, large emissions aren't cheap either. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I'm in gas, and turbines are a great option but they still have emissions. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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How would this work? And the losses in winter would drive $/kWh through the roof. Quoted:
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I don't understand why they just don't put them underground like cable or fiber optic. This is the best solution. Very costly to retrofit though. OP's idea is interesting but unworkable in reality. Ohmic losses are kept very low in the grid intentionally, for obvious reasons. And going to a lower voltage/higher current condition would require many transformers to be wired to different taps (which don't really exist on the transformers to begin with) so it's gonna be more work to restructure than the work to fix the problems. You wouldn't want the high loss condition to exist year-round. Plus, ice storms also take trees out which then take out the power lines and self-defrosting power lines won't help that. Those are all the downsides I'd considered. For this to be workable it would need easy switching between high and low resistance modes, preferably infinitely with closed loop feedback. And ya, screw burying cables. Dealing in buried assets like that is a PITA. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile How would this work? And the losses in winter would drive $/kWh through the roof. Shit I don't know, that's why I'm asking. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Quoted: Not even close. But thanks for trying. Quoted: Quoted: I'll bet you can get ( quantity FOUR ) V-12 Caterpillar generator sets,with total of 20 megawatts online for around a million dollars.. Not even close. But thanks for trying. |
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Seeing as how they already do it all over the world, including parts of the US, it would not seem to be that crazy of a suggestion. Oh, the drama. Quoted:
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I don't understand why they just don't put them underground like cable or fiber optic. Right. Because UG HV is just like cable or FO. I guess you wouldn't mind the higher power bills. Seeing as how they already do it all over the world, including parts of the US, it would not seem to be that crazy of a suggestion. Oh, the drama. I do this for a living. You have zero idea on the costs involved. Where does the money come from? UG is approx 4-5x the cost vs OH. Maintenance is a nightmare and much more expensive. |
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Seeing as how they already do it all over the world, including parts of the US, it would not seem to be that crazy of a suggestion. Oh, the drama. Quoted:
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I don't understand why they just don't put them underground like cable or fiber optic. Right. Because UG HV is just like cable or FO. I guess you wouldn't mind the higher power bills. Seeing as how they already do it all over the world, including parts of the US, it would not seem to be that crazy of a suggestion. Oh, the drama. True, but when it cost 10x more than above ground is less flexible it's not the easiest thing to get approved budget wise. |
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Changing the voltage will change the current while the resistance stays constant. Oh and all the broken lines won't let anything flow. Quoted:
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Why can't they make the lines thaw themselves? Reduce voltage, up the amps and let the resistance do the work That's not how it works Care to elaborate? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Changing the voltage will change the current while the resistance stays constant. Oh and all the broken lines won't let anything flow. The current wont increase to meet demand? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Shit I don't know, that's why I'm asking. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted:
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I don't understand why they just don't put them underground like cable or fiber optic. This is the best solution. Very costly to retrofit though. OP's idea is interesting but unworkable in reality. Ohmic losses are kept very low in the grid intentionally, for obvious reasons. And going to a lower voltage/higher current condition would require many transformers to be wired to different taps (which don't really exist on the transformers to begin with) so it's gonna be more work to restructure than the work to fix the problems. You wouldn't want the high loss condition to exist year-round. Plus, ice storms also take trees out which then take out the power lines and self-defrosting power lines won't help that. Those are all the downsides I'd considered. For this to be workable it would need easy switching between high and low resistance modes, preferably infinitely with closed loop feedback. And ya, screw burying cables. Dealing in buried assets like that is a PITA. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile How would this work? And the losses in winter would drive $/kWh through the roof. Shit I don't know, that's why I'm asking. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile To affect the temp of the line, you either increase current flow, or change conductor. Changing conductor each summer/winter is obviously cost prohibitive so let's look at changing the current. Current is dependent on load. I'm sure we could figure out an infrastructure/switching scheme that allowed us to overload lines in winter but not in summer. This infrastructure would be massively redundant...which, again is cost prohibitive. And that's assuming the lines and structures could handle the sag. And the lines left dormant would be prone to premature failure....yet more costs. I guess money grows on trees. |
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True, but when it cost 10x more than above ground is less flexible it's not the easiest thing to get approved budget wise. Quoted:
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I don't understand why they just don't put them underground like cable or fiber optic. Right. Because UG HV is just like cable or FO. I guess you wouldn't mind the higher power bills. Seeing as how they already do it all over the world, including parts of the US, it would not seem to be that crazy of a suggestion. Oh, the drama. True, but when it cost 10x more than above ground is less flexible it's not the easiest thing to get approved budget wise. It doesn't get approved because budgets must be funded. Who funds them? WE DO! Unless you have a money tree. |
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I do this for a living. You have zero idea on the costs involved. Where does the money come from? UG is approx 4-5x the cost vs OH. Maintenance is a nightmare and much more expensive. Quoted:
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I don't understand why they just don't put them underground like cable or fiber optic. Right. Because UG HV is just like cable or FO. I guess you wouldn't mind the higher power bills. Seeing as how they already do it all over the world, including parts of the US, it would not seem to be that crazy of a suggestion. Oh, the drama. I do this for a living. You have zero idea on the costs involved. Where does the money come from? UG is approx 4-5x the cost vs OH. Maintenance is a nightmare and much more expensive. You should call Germany, Fairfax and Prince William Counties in Virginia, and the rest of the 18% of the US where they run underground power lines (I looked it up on the Us Energy Information Administration's site), etc. and tell them it won't work because they don't know what they're talking about. You know, because "you do this for a living." |
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You should call Germany, Fairfax and Prince William Counties in Virginia, and the rest of the 18% of the US where they run underground power lines (I looked it up on the Us Energy Information Administration's site), etc. and tell them it won't work because they don't know what they're talking about. You know, because "you do this for a living." Quoted:
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I don't understand why they just don't put them underground like cable or fiber optic. Right. Because UG HV is just like cable or FO. I guess you wouldn't mind the higher power bills. Seeing as how they already do it all over the world, including parts of the US, it would not seem to be that crazy of a suggestion. Oh, the drama. I do this for a living. You have zero idea on the costs involved. Where does the money come from? UG is approx 4-5x the cost vs OH. Maintenance is a nightmare and much more expensive. You should call Germany, Fairfax and Prince William Counties in Virginia, and the rest of the 18% of the US where they run underground power lines (I looked it up on the Us Energy Information Administration's site), etc. and tell them it won't work because they don't know what they're talking about. You know, because "you do this for a living." Where did I say it wouldn't work? |
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Not exactly what you asked, but to add to the off track discussions.
I generate for our plant using 2 Solar Taurus 60 gas turbine generator sets. If we buy electricity, it's 14 cents/Kw. but it only costs us 4 cents/Kw to generate it. Last time I had heard a number, we saved the company 8 million bucks a year.....that's operator wages and maintenance costs factored in. You'd get plant reliability and savings year round on top of it. Of course initial outlay isn't cheap. |
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Quoted: Seeing as how they already do it all over the world, including parts of the US, it would not seem to be that crazy of a suggestion. Oh, the drama. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't understand why they just don't put them underground like cable or fiber optic. Right. Because UG HV is just like cable or FO. I guess you wouldn't mind the higher power bills. Seeing as how they already do it all over the world, including parts of the US, it would not seem to be that crazy of a suggestion. Oh, the drama. Most places that have underground electric are new or fairly new, so installation costs were cheap. Imagine replacing current lines. Anytime a utility opens the ground they have to coordinate with all the other utilities which isn't much different than herding cats. When all is said and done, underground has its own set of problems as far as maintenance and repair. Water and inaccessibility are two main problems. It certainly can be done but its gonna cost and who pays? The consumer. |
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This wasn't a major ice storm but still a lot of people lost power and are still without power. I only lost for a few hours but people around me have been without for days.
The problem in Caddo county and the nearby towns was the tree limbs that fell on the lines, not the actual poles and lines. There is no line maintenance done around here. I see tress growing into the lines everywhere and poles that have been washed and leaning way over for a long time. The general method here is to fix it when it goes down but nothing to prevent it from going down. I also lost a couple friends in this storm. A friend that lived with his elderly mother who was not very mobile, they were without power and using an unknown heat source. Something caught the house on fire and they didn't make it out.. Firemen found them together in a bedroom and he was holding his mother. I hope the smoke inhalation got them first. |
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If a tree limb falls and breaks or simply knocks a power line off a pole
It's a real good thing that line goes dead cause you know it's now on the ground Ice storms are hell on OH power but I kinda doubt you've looking at 3+ weeks of outage I mean the local power provider in that area has called everyone with trucks and people - well I'd say everyone we are a small company with 20ish crews in South MS and we are out there I'm not sure where as I'm just the IT dude for the company and all I know about AC is it's bad and it'll kill yer ass I'd just assume if this is costing you 1M a day somebody would be hell bent on getting ya'll back going - IM me the name of the business and I'll ask my guy out there if he's in the area has seen a work order for it Barry |
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Quoted: You should call Germany, Fairfax and Prince William Counties in Virginia, and the rest of the 18% of the US where they run underground power lines (I looked it up on the Us Energy Information Administration's site), etc. and tell them it won't work because they don't know what they're talking about. You know, because "you do this for a living." Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't understand why they just don't put them underground like cable or fiber optic. Right. Because UG HV is just like cable or FO. I guess you wouldn't mind the higher power bills. Seeing as how they already do it all over the world, including parts of the US, it would not seem to be that crazy of a suggestion. Oh, the drama. I do this for a living. You have zero idea on the costs involved. Where does the money come from? UG is approx 4-5x the cost vs OH. Maintenance is a nightmare and much more expensive. You should call Germany, Fairfax and Prince William Counties in Virginia, and the rest of the 18% of the US where they run underground power lines (I looked it up on the Us Energy Information Administration's site), etc. and tell them it won't work because they don't know what they're talking about. You know, because "you do this for a living." My Dad, who "did this for a living" for PG&E, told me once that to place the utilities underground on a stretch of busy road was estimated at $1million a mile. This was existing overhead wire,phone,cable. ETA: Not to mention the disruption to the traffic, which would be nightmarish. |
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Not exactly what you asked, but to add to the off track discussions. I generate for our plant using 2 Solar Taurus 60 gas turbine generator sets. If we buy electricity, it's 14 cents/Kw. but it only costs us 4 cents/Kw to generate it. Last time I had heard a number, we saved the company 8 million bucks a year.....that's operator wages and maintenance costs factored in. You'd get plant reliability and savings year round on top of it. Of course initial outlay isn't cheap. Nice turbines! Like I said, the HP is to drive gas compression, so if I were gonna set engines I'd hook them to the compression. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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So, my distribution line carries 7200 volts. My transformer steps it down to 240. What do you think reducing the voltage is going to do on my end?  Well this isn't about you. But if it were, you'd have an adjustable transformer as well. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Doing a 192 megawatt rewind right now  Quoted:
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Well, now I see that there aren't very many members that understand what 20mw of generation looks like. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Fuck ya, that's a big stator. Couple hundred tons? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Care to elaborate? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted:
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Why can't they make the lines thaw themselves? Reduce voltage, up the amps and let the resistance do the work That's not how it works Care to elaborate? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Resistive loads as voltage drops amps drop. Raise the voltage and you use more power. When rain falls on trees that are frozen and the tree's break down the lines wire temp does not matter. |
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I do this for a living. You have zero idea on the costs involved. Where does the money come from? UG is approx 4-5x the cost vs OH. Maintenance is a nightmare and much more expensive. Quoted:
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I don't understand why they just don't put them underground like cable or fiber optic. Right. Because UG HV is just like cable or FO. I guess you wouldn't mind the higher power bills. Seeing as how they already do it all over the world, including parts of the US, it would not seem to be that crazy of a suggestion. Oh, the drama. I do this for a living. You have zero idea on the costs involved. Where does the money come from? UG is approx 4-5x the cost vs OH. Maintenance is a nightmare and much more expensive. Buried is hands down better until there's a problem, then it's not. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Just got over a power outage from a windstorm here in Eastern WA. Over 5,000 outages, 180k customers out at peak. Worst power outage in our areas history. Called in crews from WA, OR, ID, MT, CA, NV, WI, Canada. Had 130ish crews at peak. No one was out longer than 8 days. |
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Totally not what you want, but you seem to like.....more power...
This is one of 4 at the plant my brother works at....it's a manly-sized gas turbine that's driving this. 
The plant has 2 HRSG's, two gas turbines into each. Each HRSG supplies steam to one of these... 
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Well this isn't about you. But if it were, you'd have an adjustable transformer as well. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted:
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So, my distribution line carries 7200 volts. My transformer steps it down to 240. What do you think reducing the voltage is going to do on my end? Well this isn't about you. But if it were, you'd have an adjustable transformer as well. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile There are adjustable transformers all along the line. They keep the voltage within 10 percent. What do you suppose they are going to do? They are going to boost. Your idea makes no sense. |