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Posted: 11/9/2015 10:02:00 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So I never understood that if projectile improvements helped 9mm wouldn't it also help 40 and 45? The gist of the report is saying weak shooters is the reason we switched back to 9mm. If you are a weak shooter should you even have a job that involves the high potential to use a handgun? No because of SPEED...you can make a 9mm expand better due to speed...where the .45 does not get the same percentage of improvement from the same bullet type because it is slower.... and .40's are just retarded 
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Posted: 11/9/2015 10:04:33 PM EDT
[#2]
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Cops can't shoot for shit so they need more rounds. There...I summarized it for you all. The military is worse. 
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Posted: 11/9/2015 10:07:09 PM EDT
[#3]
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The cliff notes: 1. Good 9mm bullets make wounds just as big as .40 cal or .45 ACP. 2. You get more capacity with 9mm than with .40 or .45. 3. 9mm has less recoil than the other common duty caliber rounds Basically, 9mm (with good projectiles) perform just as well as the other duty calibers, while allowing for greater magazine capacity and more accurate, quicker follow-up shots. Therefore it makes little sense to choose .40, .45 or .357 Sig when 9mm will do the same job without any of the negatives associated with the other calibers. Nothing really ground breaking or earth shattering. Anyone who has followed terminal ballistics at all likely already reached this same conclusion a decade ago. |
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Posted: 11/9/2015 10:10:45 PM EDT
[#4]
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don't modern day expanding hollow points from 9 to .40 to .45 all exhibit similar expansion and penetration? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So my understanding is the FBI tested then recommended 9mm as the best option for LE duty but gave no testing information as to how they came to the decision? A decision that has not only the weight of possibly saving or getting LEOs killed, but has also gotten every limp wristing shooters panties wet and jellofied with cheesy poof dust. don't modern day expanding hollow points from 9 to .40 to .45 all exhibit similar expansion and penetration? Yep. FBI qual scores dropped when they adopted the 40S&W. |
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Posted: 11/9/2015 10:11:24 PM EDT
[#5]
I think the FBI should clarify that combat related stress decreases accuracy potential, which in turn correlates a lower hit % in LE related shootings. A blanket "LE miss 80% shots " statement, while likely true does not highlight the core issue. More rounds=more chances to hit. Now you will have .45 holdouts arguing that their superior training negates 9mm's advantages.
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Posted: 11/9/2015 10:12:44 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're only talking a difference of ~0.1" between 9mm and 45acp. There's only so much a bullet that size going at pistol velocities is going to do terminally. The bullet designs have just gotten good enough that the little difference in size and weight just doesn't affect performance that much. The benefits from the rest of the findings that 9mm provides really start to add up now. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So I never understood that if projectile improvements helped 9mm wouldn't it also help 40 and 45? The gist of the report is saying weak shooters is the reason we switched back to 9mm. If you are a weak shooter should you even have a job that involves the high potential to use a handgun? You're only talking a difference of ~0.1" between 9mm and 45acp. There's only so much a bullet that size going at pistol velocities is going to do terminally. The bullet designs have just gotten good enough that the little difference in size and weight just doesn't affect performance that much. The benefits from the rest of the findings that 9mm provides really start to add up now. Well put. I'm afraid that there isn't much dispute on this issue. I'm having a difficult time continuing to justify carrying a .45 at this point. |
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Posted: 11/9/2015 10:16:04 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The cliff notes: 1. Good 9mm bullets make wounds just as big as .40 cal or .45 ACP. 2. You get more capacity with 9mm than with .40 or .45. 3. 9mm has less recoil than the other common duty caliber rounds Basically, 9mm (with good projectiles) perform just as well as the other duty calibers, while allowing for greater magazine capacity and more accurate, quicker follow-up shots. Therefore it makes little sense to choose .40, .45 or .357 Sig when 9mm will do the same job without any of the negatives associated with the other calibers. Nothing really ground breaking or earth shattering. Anyone who has followed terminal ballistics at all likely already reached this same conclusion a decade ago. Very clearly stated. I can handle the .45, have carried one for decades. The advantages of 9mm can't be ignored at this point. It makes sense to switch. |
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Posted: 11/9/2015 10:16:36 PM EDT
[#8]
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The military is worse. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Cops can't shoot for shit so they need more rounds. There...I summarized it for you all. The military is worse. That was admitted long ago. 
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Posted: 11/9/2015 10:29:39 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: thats the point I been making since all this started people love to compare modern bullet designs in the 9mm to older less effective HPs in other calibers then crow how its better or just as good as if ammo companies dont upgrade across the board the performance gap still exists. of course even with ball. 45 is still 45 at the least 9mm is still 9mm, 40 is still 10mm etc etc Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So I never understood that if projectile improvements helped 9mm wouldn't it also help 40 and 45? The gist of the report is saying weak shooters is the reason we switched back to 9mm. If you are a weak shooter should you even have a job that involves the high potential to use a handgun? thats the point I been making since all this started people love to compare modern bullet designs in the 9mm to older less effective HPs in other calibers then crow how its better or just as good as if ammo companies dont upgrade across the board the performance gap still exists. of course even with ball. 45 is still 45 at the least 9mm is still 9mm, 40 is still 10mm etc etc Are those companies actually putting R&D into the larger calibers or just upsizing what tested great in 9mm? |
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Posted: 11/9/2015 10:41:28 PM EDT
[#10]
Certainly makes a much faster shooting game gun.
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Posted: 11/9/2015 10:50:49 PM EDT
[#11]
They've used lots of 9mm handguns in the past in various capacities (Sigs, S&Ws, and even Hi Powers).
This trend toward 9mm is nice because it's really driving down the price on .40. |
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Posted: 11/10/2015 5:21:18 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tell him that according to the FBI, cops can't shoot for shit and need more bullets in their guns. That should help.
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One senior Lt. in the PD is the only thing standing between our changing from 45 (back) to 9mm. Tell him that according to the FBI, cops can't shoot for shit and need more bullets in their guns. That should help.
I won't relate the story about attending a qual and finishing in the first round, then moving to the rifle qual and getting done with both (and getting a chance to engage in "fun time") and seeing several of the same officers I started with still trying to achieve a passing score over a hour later. Oh, wait...
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Posted: 11/10/2015 7:13:25 PM EDT
[#13]
As all things must, this too, shall pass.
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Posted: 11/10/2015 7:15:14 PM EDT
[#14]
9MM has always been the best well rounded round.
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Posted: 11/10/2015 7:21:51 PM EDT
[#15]
Chuckle.... the 9mm round works fine but the reasoning for the change is more about the recruits they are hiring.
Pre 9-11 the Bureau was largely made up of former cops and military guys. The mission was bank robbery, drugs and kidnapping along with white collar stuff. Post 9-11 its all about terrorism and recruits are college kids that have never been yelled at or made to eat their veggies. Its the same thing being dealt with across the country in every major LE agency. I'll be keeping my .40 and .45s but feel fine with a G26 and a spare mag for off duty. |
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Posted: 11/10/2015 7:54:05 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So I never understood that if projectile improvements helped 9mm wouldn't it also help 40 and 45? The gist of the report is saying weak shooters is the reason we switched back to 9mm. If you are a weak shooter should you even have a job that involves the high potential to use a handgun? They do benefit, it's just that there is not any real difference in terminal ballsitics and 9mm offers both better mag capacity and easier follow up shots. Why make it harder than it has to be? |
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