Posted: 5/31/2015 3:12:03 PM EDT
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This has been bugging me for a while now. Most of it has been read in the papers or seen on TV. A guy chokes a women out and she dies. It's common to see people getting choked out(Passed out) in MMA. What the difference? A forarm choke cant be much different from using your hands can it? Does someone need to hold the choke for 3mins or more for the person to die or is it something else?
Oh and there's the chemical kind. Chloroform or Ether. I assume if you leave the rag or mask on the person will die? ***No I'm not planning on tring it out. Just wondering.  
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| Too many variables.... one is done in the realm of a violent sport whereas the other is a violent criminal act... with the latter most likely involving damage to the throat, windpipe, and surrounding areas... the former being a blood cut off issue and the other being a direct breathing issue. |
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Too many variables.... one is done in the realm of a violent sport whereas the other is a violent criminal act... with the latter most likely involving damage to the throat, windpipe, and surrounding areas... the former being a blood cut off issue and the other being a direct breathing issue. I thought about that too. Guess if the MMA refs didn't stop them as quickly as thety do some would die? Suprised no broken necks yet. |
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I thought about that too. Guess if the MMA refs didn't stop them as quickly as thety do some would die? Quoted:
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Too many variables.... one is done in the realm of a violent sport whereas the other is a violent criminal act... with the latter most likely involving damage to the throat, windpipe, and surrounding areas... the former being a blood cut off issue and the other being a direct breathing issue. I thought about that too. Guess if the MMA refs didn't stop them as quickly as thety do some would die? Big difference in someone crushing your larynx in the heat of anger/rage vs. cutting off the blood supply temporarily to your brain during a sporting contest... you could say the results you cited illustrate that. |
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Big difference in someone crushing your larynx in the heat of anger/rage vs. cutting off the blood supply temporarily to your brain during a sporting contest... you could say the results you cited illustrate that. Quoted:
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Too many variables.... one is done in the realm of a violent sport whereas the other is a violent criminal act... with the latter most likely involving damage to the throat, windpipe, and surrounding areas... the former being a blood cut off issue and the other being a direct breathing issue. I thought about that too. Guess if the MMA refs didn't stop them as quickly as thety do some would die? Big difference in someone crushing your larynx in the heat of anger/rage vs. cutting off the blood supply temporarily to your brain during a sporting contest... you could say the results you cited illustrate that. Agreed! |
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I thought about that too. Guess if the MMA refs didn't stop them as quickly as thety do some would die? Suprised no broken necks yet. Quoted:
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Too many variables.... one is done in the realm of a violent sport whereas the other is a violent criminal act... with the latter most likely involving damage to the throat, windpipe, and surrounding areas... the former being a blood cut off issue and the other being a direct breathing issue. I thought about that too. Guess if the MMA refs didn't stop them as quickly as thety do some would die? Suprised no broken necks yet. Presumably yes, if someone were held in a sleeper hold for too long they wouldn't wake up. |
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Presumably yes, if someone were held in a sleeper hold for too long they wouldn't wake up. Quoted:
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Too many variables.... one is done in the realm of a violent sport whereas the other is a violent criminal act... with the latter most likely involving damage to the throat, windpipe, and surrounding areas... the former being a blood cut off issue and the other being a direct breathing issue. I thought about that too. Guess if the MMA refs didn't stop them as quickly as thety do some would die? Suprised no broken necks yet. Presumably yes, if someone were held in a sleeper hold for too long they wouldn't wake up. That I figured out. Does it have to be more than 3mins? As Bowhntr6p said there are too many varibles. Where is the point of no return? |
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Somewhere between 50 shades and David Caradine... Quoted:
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sometimes you cum, sometimes you go... Agreed, where's the line? Somewhere between 50 shades and David Caradine... I never watched 50 because of the reviews here in GD.  Grasshopper
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Cutting off or reducing oxygen or blood flow to the brain temporarily will cause someone to pass out. If that reduction isn't temporary, people die.
Either they hold the choke to long, or they damage the structures that carry blood and oxygen to the brain. In MMA, they're trained people fighting other trained people who are in a contest, surrounded by officials, other trained fighters, and people with medical training. Out on the street, untrained people get angry with each other, fight and medical help has to fight traffic to get there, if anyone bothers to call for it or even notices that it's needed. |
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Cutting off or reducing oxygen or blood flow to the brain temporarily will cause someone to pass out. If that reduction isn't temporary, people die. Either they hold the choke to long, or they damage the structures that carry blood and oxygen to the brain. In MMA, they're trained people fighting other trained people who are in a contest, surrounded by officials, other trained fighters, and people with medical training. Out on the street, untrained people get angry with each other, fight and medical help has to fight traffic to get there, if anyone bothers to call for it or even notices that it's needed. I guess this pretty much sums it. Help, if you're lucky |
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That I figured out. Does it have to be more than 3mins? As Bowhntr6p said there are too many varibles. Where is the point of no return? Quoted:
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Too many variables.... one is done in the realm of a violent sport whereas the other is a violent criminal act... with the latter most likely involving damage to the throat, windpipe, and surrounding areas... the former being a blood cut off issue and the other being a direct breathing issue. I thought about that too. Guess if the MMA refs didn't stop them as quickly as thety do some would die? Suprised no broken necks yet. Presumably yes, if someone were held in a sleeper hold for too long they wouldn't wake up. That I figured out. Does it have to be more than 3mins? As Bowhntr6p said there are too many varibles. Where is the point of no return? It's hard to put a specific time on it because apoxia (deprivation of oxygen to the brain) is depending on pp O2 in the brain tissue which is dependent on pp O2 in the blood. Below 86% (not 87) is severe. But you don't have to be choked. Altitude sickness is the exact same thing. |
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It's hard to put a specific time on it because apoxia (deprivation of oxygen to the brain) is depending on pp O2 in the brain tissue which is dependent on pp O2 in the blood. Below 86% (not 87) is severe. But you don't have to be choked. Altitude sickness is the exact same thing. Guess it matters on how hard your heart is pumping at the time also. If your body is already lacking O2 one would expire quicker than the 3mis? |
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Brain damage can begin as early as 2 minutes of the start of the choke. (possibly even earlier than that, depending on several issues)
It's almost certainly considerably damaged at 6 minutes. For one to make sure of death, a minimum of 15 minutes. Even then, under extreme conditions (youth, cold) some have come back from lack of blood to the brain for that long. It's not like in the movies where when they pass out, they're "dead". Unless severe damage is done to the carotids/jugular structures, or the trachea is collapsed, or the veins/arteries "stick" shut which can happen in smokers/obese people, they are not permanently damaged, if the choke is released soon after they go out. In MMA, there have been larynx chokes used. Gracie v Shamrock #1 was against the trachea, hence the quick tap. It's more of a pain thing before it starts to crush/damage the structure. And, yeah, it hurts like hell. |
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Brain damage can begin as early as 2 minutes of the start of the choke. (possibly even earlier than that, depending on several issues) It's almost certainly considerably damaged at 6 minutes. For one to make sure of death, a minimum of 15 minutes. Even then, under extreme conditions (youth, cold) some have come back from lack of blood to the brain for that long. It's not like in the movies where when they pass out, they're "dead". Unless severe damage is done to the carotids/jugular structures, or the trachea is collapsed, or the veins/arteries "stick" shut which can happen in smokers/obese people, they are not permanently damaged, if the choke is released soon after they go out. In MMA, there have been larynx chokes used. Gracie v Shamrock #1 was against the trachea, hence the quick tap. It's more of a pain thing before it starts to crush/damage the structure. And, yeah, it hurts like hell. 15mins? Wow Gracie vs Shamrock #1 that was when there was almost no rules I remember Joe san getting his balls punched and punched 
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That I figured out. Does it have to be more than 3mins? As Bowhntr6p said there are too many varibles. Where is the point of no return? Quoted:
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Too many variables.... one is done in the realm of a violent sport whereas the other is a violent criminal act... with the latter most likely involving damage to the throat, windpipe, and surrounding areas... the former being a blood cut off issue and the other being a direct breathing issue. I thought about that too. Guess if the MMA refs didn't stop them as quickly as thety do some would die? Suprised no broken necks yet. Presumably yes, if someone were held in a sleeper hold for too long they wouldn't wake up. That I figured out. Does it have to be more than 3mins? As Bowhntr6p said there are too many varibles. Where is the point of no return? As Bowhntr6pt points out, it depends on what you're doing. To get more specific . . . 1) Carotid arteries 
The Carotid arteries are the main blood supply to the brain. They are paired and on either side of the trachea and larynx, or windpipe. If you apply pressure to them, you can cut off the blood flow to the brain. If you get good pressure on them, you will usually lose consciousness within 4 to 6 seconds. You can do this more safely by cradling the neck between your upper and lower arm which leaves room for the windpipe where the neck bends. This is the safest/easiest way to apply pressure against the arteries from behind. For the front, you can apply pressure on either side of the trachea/larynx using the meat at the base of the thumbs or the thumbs. Again, you are applying pressure on either side of the trachea/larynx and thereby 'protecting' it from injury. You should only do this if there is a threat of death or serious bodily injury as you can tear the artery or end up applying pressure against and collapsing the trachea/larynx. If you keep pressure against the arteries for more than 4 minutes, you can cause brain damage, and eventually with longer periods of time you can cause death. You still have some blood flow to the brain because you are not blocking the vertebral arteries which supply blood to the brainstem and some other areas. It gets a little more complicated. If you apply a sharp blow to the neck, you can hit the carotid where it divides into the Internal and External Carotid arteries. At this point, there is a pressure sensor in the artery. If the pressure goes up suddenly from being hit hard, you can have a vaso-vagal reaction with a very rapid loss of consciousness due to a drop in blood pressure and resultant lack of blood flow to the brain. This is a reflexive reaction and This video shows some examples, but I can't vouch for all of them. 2) Trachea/larynx These structures are made of a cartilagenous material. You can crush them and it doesn't take much force. Once they are collapsed, they may not expand again and you've cut off the airway permanently ie. death, though it may take several minutes for loss of consciousness (as the Carotid arteries are not necessarily being compressed) during which time your opponent can still fight. It's best to use your forearm to apply pressure against it as you want to crush the cartilage, though you can also do this with your hands, especially if the person is thinner and smaller. If the pressure is strong enough, you can cut off both the air supply and also blood supply against the Carotid arteries. You don't need to actually push directly against the trachea/larynx to cut off the air supply. You can position the neck/body in many ways to make it difficult or impossible for your opponent to take a breath. You can see this in the next video. The other video is an example of cutting off blood supply only without compressing the trachea/larynx. 
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| The difference is Hollywood. It takes a long time to strangle someone...10-15 minutes long. have you never seen those "I survived" shows on TV? The ones that survived were "Hollywood choked" by an idiot criminal who didn't know you had to stick around and finish the job. |
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The difference is Hollywood. It takes a long time to strangle someone...10-15 minutes long. have you never seen those "I survived" shows on TV? The ones that survived were "Hollywood choked" by an idiot criminal who didn't know you had to stick around and finish the job. If it takes you 10-15 minutes to strangle someone you are doing it really, really wrong... |
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The difference is Hollywood. It takes a long time to strangle someone...10-15 minutes long. have you never seen those "I survived" shows on TV? The ones that survived were "Hollywood choked" by an idiot criminal who didn't know you had to stick around and finish the job. Please read my post above. You can cause loss of consciousness in as little as 4 to 6 seconds. I've seen it and done it myself in the dojo. |
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If it takes you 10-15 minutes to strangle someone you are doing it really, really wrong... Quoted:
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The difference is Hollywood. It takes a long time to strangle someone...10-15 minutes long. have you never seen those "I survived" shows on TV? The ones that survived were "Hollywood choked" by an idiot criminal who didn't know you had to stick around and finish the job. If it takes you 10-15 minutes to strangle someone you are doing it really, really wrong... In order to ensure death, it does take that long. There are people who survive those lengths of time with no circulation to the brain. Unconscious doesn't equal death. Eta: This time window is for using only a choke. A more expedient method for death is to choke into unconsciousness, then smash their head with heavy hard stuff or separate it from their body. |
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Please read my post above. You can cause loss of consciousness in as little as 4 to 6 seconds. I've seen it and done it myself in the dojo. Quoted:
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The difference is Hollywood. It takes a long time to strangle someone...10-15 minutes long. have you never seen those "I survived" shows on TV? The ones that survived were "Hollywood choked" by an idiot criminal who didn't know you had to stick around and finish the job. Please read my post above. You can cause loss of consciousness in as little as 4 to 6 seconds. I've seen it and done it myself in the dojo. I did read your post. OP asked about dying/finishing the job, not just knocking someone out. If you need to choke someone to completion, it's gonna takes a hell of a lot longer than seconds. That's a fact. |
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I did read your post. OP asked about dying/finishing the job, not just knocking someone out. If you need to choke someone to completion, it's gonna takes a hell of a lot longer than seconds. That's a fact. Quoted:
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The difference is Hollywood. It takes a long time to strangle someone...10-15 minutes long. have you never seen those "I survived" shows on TV? The ones that survived were "Hollywood choked" by an idiot criminal who didn't know you had to stick around and finish the job. Please read my post above. You can cause loss of consciousness in as little as 4 to 6 seconds. I've seen it and done it myself in the dojo. I did read your post. OP asked about dying/finishing the job, not just knocking someone out. If you need to choke someone to completion, it's gonna takes a hell of a lot longer than seconds. That's a fact. Sorry, correct. If you want to make sure, 10 to 15 minutes should be perfectly adequate. At that point, spontaneous breathing won't likely return even if you release pressure (lower brainstem should be gone too), but at that point their brain is fried and they'd be declared brain dead anyway. |