Posted: 5/8/2015 3:16:20 PM EDT
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What is a fair amount of time to give an employee before giving up on them and letting them go? I have an employee that I have tried over and over again to do things right, and he is just a slow learner that keeps screwing up. 3 months is my written trial period, but I try to give 6 months and 6 months is the earliest I have let someone go. I am at 4 months with this kid and can't take any more. I know the answer from an employer standpoint is fire him, it is that simple. What about from the employee stand point? What do you think is a fair amount of time to do basic, mundane, low risk, no skill tasks?
This is for an electrical apprentice. He is basically a tool fetcher that still hasn't learned how to use basic hand tools, despite daily use, and can't follow basic instructions like leave screws straight up and down and use a level. He has a very basic knowledge of electrical theory and that is it. Oh, and he is as slow moving and unmotivated as molasses. Nice kid though. 4 months will be the quickest I have let someone go and I always feel like maybe the next day he won't be such a screw up, but I don't think I can allow him to make it to 6 months. So what is a fair amount of time, from an employee standpoint, to learn the most basic tasks and functions of your job? And don't blame it on the teachers for fucks sake, we are talking about things that everyone should know how to do when they are born. |
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When I was responsible for hiring employees, I knew within a week if I had made a mistake. Oh, I knew I had made a mistake after the first week. We were in a bind and needed all hands on deck though (still do), and it's tough to find any electrician who will show up clean cut every day. 
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| I have low turnover but within about ten days you should be able to predict. I can usually tell sooner, but after ten days you usually know with about 99.87% accuracy. This has held true in Real Estate, cleaning, construction, marketing , accounting, logistics, landscaping, and sales in my direct experience. |
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Oh, I knew I had made a mistake after the first week. We were in a bind and needed all hands on deck though (still do), and it's tough to find any electrician who will show up clean cut every day. Quoted:
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When I was responsible for hiring employees, I knew within a week if I had made a mistake. Oh, I knew I had made a mistake after the first week. We were in a bind and needed all hands on deck though (still do), and it's tough to find any electrician who will show up clean cut every day. The last person here didn't make it much past a week. And he probably could have kept his job even though he sucked if he just showed up when he was supposed to. It's not that hard. |
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It's actually worse the longer you wait from both your side and his side.
From his side, if you wait 6 months to a year to let him go, his other leads are no longer fresh and now he's got a gap in his resume that he'll have to explain one way or another. From your side, the longer you wait, the more likely he is to place a burden on your business that takes time to unwind or create dissonance with your good employees who wonder why the fuck you are still paying a guy that can't do the job. I've had two good layoffs in the past year that moved my company forward even before I had replaced them. |
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Oh, I knew I had made a mistake after the first week. We were in a bind and needed all hands on deck though (still do), and it's tough to find any electrician who will show up clean cut every day. Quoted:
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When I was responsible for hiring employees, I knew within a week if I had made a mistake. Oh, I knew I had made a mistake after the first week. We were in a bind and needed all hands on deck though (still do), and it's tough to find any electrician who will show up clean cut every day. Two things here. First, in blue, is your BIG mistake. If you knew after a week that he was a bad fit, you should have fired him after a week. Everything you paid him after that was charity and wasted funds. Second, in red, who gives a fuck what they look like. Electricians are either good at the job, or not. "Clean cut" really has no bearing on that particular skill set. You're artificially limiting your labor pool based on a perceived value in appearance. You should stop that. |
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It's actually worse the longer you wait from both your side and his side. From his side, if you wait 6 months to a year to let him go, his other leads are no longer fresh and now he's got a gap in his resume that he'll have to explain one way or another. From your side, the longer you wait, the more likely he is to place a burden on your business that takes time to unwind or create dissonance with your good employees who wonder why the fuck you are still paying a guy that can't do the job. I've had two good layoffs in the past year that moved my company forward even before I had replaced them. Exactly. This phrase applies perfectly to the OP in reference to his employee. "It's not his fault, you should have fired him months ago." The longer you keep a useless employee around the greater the likelihood that they'll cost you big money and you'll miss the one decent potential employee you didn't hire because you were wasting time on oxygen burners. |
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Second, in red, who gives a fuck what they look like. Electricians are either good at the job, or not. "Clean cut" really has no bearing on that particular skill set. You're artificially limiting your labor pool based on a perceived value in appearance. You should stop that. Agree. I'll take a tatted up dude with ear gauges that can do the work right over a boy scout who's incompetent. |
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Two things here. First, in blue, is your BIG mistake. If you knew after a week that he was a bad fit, you should have fired him after a week. Everything you paid him after that was charity and wasted funds. Second, in red, who gives a fuck what they look like. Electricians are either good at the job, or not. "Clean cut" really has no bearing on that particular skill set. You're artificially limiting your labor pool based on a perceived value in appearance. You should stop that. Quoted:
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When I was responsible for hiring employees, I knew within a week if I had made a mistake. Oh, I knew I had made a mistake after the first week. We were in a bind and needed all hands on deck though (still do), and it's tough to find any electrician who will show up clean cut every day. Two things here. First, in blue, is your BIG mistake. If you knew after a week that he was a bad fit, you should have fired him after a week. Everything you paid him after that was charity and wasted funds. Second, in red, who gives a fuck what they look like. Electricians are either good at the job, or not. "Clean cut" really has no bearing on that particular skill set. You're artificially limiting your labor pool based on a perceived value in appearance. You should stop that. I like how you put things. Sometimes being tactful isn't the best way. |
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Two things here. First, in blue, is your BIG mistake. If you knew after a week that he was a bad fit, you should have fired him after a week. Everything you paid him after that was charity and wasted funds. Second, in red, who gives a fuck what they look like. Electricians are either good at the job, or not. "Clean cut" really has no bearing on that particular skill set. You're artificially limiting your labor pool based on a perceived value in appearance. You should stop that. Quoted:
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When I was responsible for hiring employees, I knew within a week if I had made a mistake. Oh, I knew I had made a mistake after the first week. We were in a bind and needed all hands on deck though (still do), and it's tough to find any electrician who will show up clean cut every day. Two things here. First, in blue, is your BIG mistake. If you knew after a week that he was a bad fit, you should have fired him after a week. Everything you paid him after that was charity and wasted funds. Second, in red, who gives a fuck what they look like. Electricians are either good at the job, or not. "Clean cut" really has no bearing on that particular skill set. You're artificially limiting your labor pool based on a perceived value in appearance. You should stop that. Clean cut=sober/works clean. Hell, I haven't been "clean shaved" for the past 15 years. High end residential is a tough place to find the right electrician. I know lots of GREAT electricians, but "fuck this whore, fuck that motherfucker" is every other word out of their mouth, and with an au pair walking around with a 2 year old that doesn't fly. And then I know lots of great electricians, but come time to talk to someone, like the homeowner in the $10mil home you are in doing $30k worth of work for, they are straight up assholes. That doesn't fly either. And we will leave out the ones that show up smelling like booze from the previous night or the ones that refuse to do clean work (as in leave whatever area you were in cleaner than it was before you got there). Great for commercial, not so great for high end residential. So yea, clean cut is a perfectly acceptable definition to me. First sentence in blue, no doubt. I always look at it as there are a million different ways to do things and I don't mind people doing things differently if they are efficient and correct. This kid does neither of them. |
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Agree. I'll take a tatted up dude with ear gauges that can do the work right over a boy scout who's incompetent. Quoted:
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Second, in red, who gives a fuck what they look like. Electricians are either good at the job, or not. "Clean cut" really has no bearing on that particular skill set. You're artificially limiting your labor pool based on a perceived value in appearance. You should stop that. Agree. I'll take a tatted up dude with ear gauges that can do the work right over a boy scout who's incompetent. I am talking to a guy tomorrow that is all tatted up and tattooed employees have worked for me before. I have no problem with inkies. My wife is one (a professional at that).
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Clean cut=sober/works clean. Hell, I haven't been "clean shaved" for the past 15 years. High end residential is a tough place to find the right electrician. I know lots of GREAT electricians, but "fuck this whore, fuck that motherfucker" is every other word out of their mouth, and with an au pair walking around with a 2 year old that doesn't fly. And then I know lots of great electricians, but come time to talk to someone, like the homeowner in the $10mil home you are in doing $30k worth of work for, they are straight up assholes. That doesn't fly either. So yea, clean cut is a perfectly acceptable definition to me. First sentence in blue, no doubt. I always look at it as there are a million different ways to do things and I don't mind people doing things differently if they are efficient and correct. This kid does neither of them. Quoted:
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When I was responsible for hiring employees, I knew within a week if I had made a mistake. Oh, I knew I had made a mistake after the first week. We were in a bind and needed all hands on deck though (still do), and it's tough to find any electrician who will show up clean cut every day. Two things here. First, in blue, is your BIG mistake. If you knew after a week that he was a bad fit, you should have fired him after a week. Everything you paid him after that was charity and wasted funds. Second, in red, who gives a fuck what they look like. Electricians are either good at the job, or not. "Clean cut" really has no bearing on that particular skill set. You're artificially limiting your labor pool based on a perceived value in appearance. You should stop that. Clean cut=sober/works clean. Hell, I haven't been "clean shaved" for the past 15 years. High end residential is a tough place to find the right electrician. I know lots of GREAT electricians, but "fuck this whore, fuck that motherfucker" is every other word out of their mouth, and with an au pair walking around with a 2 year old that doesn't fly. And then I know lots of great electricians, but come time to talk to someone, like the homeowner in the $10mil home you are in doing $30k worth of work for, they are straight up assholes. That doesn't fly either. So yea, clean cut is a perfectly acceptable definition to me. First sentence in blue, no doubt. I always look at it as there are a million different ways to do things and I don't mind people doing things differently if they are efficient and correct. This kid does neither of them. Then your definition of "clean cut" differs from any I've ever heard. |
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Then your definition of "clean cut" differs from any I've ever heard. Quoted:
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When I was responsible for hiring employees, I knew within a week if I had made a mistake. Oh, I knew I had made a mistake after the first week. We were in a bind and needed all hands on deck though (still do), and it's tough to find any electrician who will show up clean cut every day. Two things here. First, in blue, is your BIG mistake. If you knew after a week that he was a bad fit, you should have fired him after a week. Everything you paid him after that was charity and wasted funds. Second, in red, who gives a fuck what they look like. Electricians are either good at the job, or not. "Clean cut" really has no bearing on that particular skill set. You're artificially limiting your labor pool based on a perceived value in appearance. You should stop that. Clean cut=sober/works clean. Hell, I haven't been "clean shaved" for the past 15 years. High end residential is a tough place to find the right electrician. I know lots of GREAT electricians, but "fuck this whore, fuck that motherfucker" is every other word out of their mouth, and with an au pair walking around with a 2 year old that doesn't fly. And then I know lots of great electricians, but come time to talk to someone, like the homeowner in the $10mil home you are in doing $30k worth of work for, they are straight up assholes. That doesn't fly either. So yea, clean cut is a perfectly acceptable definition to me. First sentence in blue, no doubt. I always look at it as there are a million different ways to do things and I don't mind people doing things differently if they are efficient and correct. This kid does neither of them. Then your definition of "clean cut" differs from any I've ever heard. Clean cut, not a POS slob. That's all. Either way, across the line, 3 months was more than enough. I'll let him know Monday. |
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What does this employee say about your issue? Does he know?
Does he know he's supposed to move with quickness, as if time is of the essence? Does he have any notion of craftsmanship, or what working a craftsmanlike manner means? Does he understand the idea of taking pride in his work? Does he have any notion of working in a team, where every team member is important and depends on each other? Are there any other employees that he should look at as an example? I think I would discuss these and other related ideas with him, making expectations clear. I would send him home with a bag of tools with instructions to not only bring them all back, but be able to use all of them by the end of the week, or have questions if he can't figure it out on his own. I would set a deadline and make it clear to him what will happen if he doesn't shape up within a week. |
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What does this employee say about your issue? Does he know? Does he know he's supposed to move with quickness, as if time is of the essence? Does he have any notion of craftsmanship, or what working a craftsmanlike manner means? Does he understand the idea of taking pride in his work? Does he have any notion of working in a team, where every team member is important and depends on each other? Are there any other employees that he should look at as an example? I think I would discuss these and other related ideas with him, making expectations clear. I would send him home with a bag of tools with instructions to not only bring them all back, but be able to use all of them by the end of the week, or have questions if he can't figure it out on his own. I would set a deadline and make it clear to him what will happen if he doesn't shape up within a week. For a no skill helper position? Fuck that. "Hey, kid, you're fired, pick up your last check on Friday." "NEXT!" It's not like he's looking for a competent .NET Architect or a ASE Master Technician. *I* was an Electrician's Helper many moons ago and I could train a house cat to do 80 percent of that job. |
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What does this employee say about your issue? Does he know? Does he know he's supposed to move with quickness, as if time is of the essence? Does he have any notion of craftsmanship, or what working a craftsmanlike manner means? Does he understand the idea of taking pride in his work? Does he have any notion of working in a team, where every team member is important and depends on each other? Are there any other employees that he should look at as an example? I think I would discuss these and other related ideas with him, making expectations clear. I would send him home with a bag of tools with instructions to not only bring them all back, but be able to use all of them by the end of the week, or have questions if he can't figure it out on his own. I would set a deadline and make it clear to him what will happen if he doesn't shape up within a week. Yes, he knows about all of the issues. "Yea, I'm working on it. I won't do it again". He has been told over and over again that certain tasks require a bit of motivation. He receives the pride in his work speech on a daily basis. He has no desire or motivation to take pride apparently. He has 3 other employees that he works with that are perfect examples and have been here for 10 years or more. IMO, taking pride in your work is the killer. You either want to do things right, or you don't. If you are a brand new employee, sometimes it takes time to click in what the right way to do things is and I don't think it is something that I can just force on someone in a weeks period. But 4 months in, he still doesn't get....I guess that answers my own question as well. Honestly, I thought employees here would tell me to give him more time. I am thankful they didn't. 
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For a no skill helper position? Fuck that. "Hey, kid, you're fired, pick up your last check on Friday." "NEXT!" It's not like he's looking for a competent .NET Architect or a ASE Master Technician. *I* was an Electrician's Helper many moons ago and I could train a house cat to do 80 percent of that job. Quoted:
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What does this employee say about your issue? Does he know? Does he know he's supposed to move with quickness, as if time is of the essence? Does he have any notion of craftsmanship, or what working a craftsmanlike manner means? Does he understand the idea of taking pride in his work? Does he have any notion of working in a team, where every team member is important and depends on each other? Are there any other employees that he should look at as an example? I think I would discuss these and other related ideas with him, making expectations clear. I would send him home with a bag of tools with instructions to not only bring them all back, but be able to use all of them by the end of the week, or have questions if he can't figure it out on his own. I would set a deadline and make it clear to him what will happen if he doesn't shape up within a week. For a no skill helper position? Fuck that. "Hey, kid, you're fired, pick up your last check on Friday." "NEXT!" It's not like he's looking for a competent .NET Architect or a ASE Master Technician. *I* was an Electrician's Helper many moons ago and I could train a house cat to do 80 percent of that job. Truth. |
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3 months is my written trial period I stopped here. If three months is the written period, then that is it. You are now at the point where you need to begin documenting the screw-ups as part of your normal disciplinary procedure. If nothing is documented yet, you have some time to go before you can get rid of him properly. There is no benefit for either party by informally extending the trial period. You should have gotten rid of him before the 90 days were up. |
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Yes, he knows about all of the issues. "Yea, I'm working on it. I won't do it again". He has been told over and over again that certain tasks require a bit of motivation. He receives the pride in his work speech on a daily basis. He has no desire or motivation to take pride apparently. He has 3 other employees that he works with that are perfect examples and have been here for 10 years or more. IMO, taking pride in your work is the killer. You either want to do things right, or you don't. If you are a brand new employee, sometimes it takes time to click in what the right way to do things is and I don't think it is something that I can just force on someone in a weeks period. But 4 months in, he still doesn't get....I guess that answers my own question as well. Honestly, I thought employees here would tell me to give him more time. I am thankful they didn't.
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What does this employee say about your issue? Does he know? Does he know he's supposed to move with quickness, as if time is of the essence? Does he have any notion of craftsmanship, or what working a craftsmanlike manner means? Does he understand the idea of taking pride in his work? Does he have any notion of working in a team, where every team member is important and depends on each other? Are there any other employees that he should look at as an example? I think I would discuss these and other related ideas with him, making expectations clear. I would send him home with a bag of tools with instructions to not only bring them all back, but be able to use all of them by the end of the week, or have questions if he can't figure it out on his own. I would set a deadline and make it clear to him what will happen if he doesn't shape up within a week. Yes, he knows about all of the issues. "Yea, I'm working on it. I won't do it again". He has been told over and over again that certain tasks require a bit of motivation. He receives the pride in his work speech on a daily basis. He has no desire or motivation to take pride apparently. He has 3 other employees that he works with that are perfect examples and have been here for 10 years or more. IMO, taking pride in your work is the killer. You either want to do things right, or you don't. If you are a brand new employee, sometimes it takes time to click in what the right way to do things is and I don't think it is something that I can just force on someone in a weeks period. But 4 months in, he still doesn't get....I guess that answers my own question as well. Honestly, I thought employees here would tell me to give him more time. I am thankful they didn't.
When I was in the hospital last decade, the guy that cleaned the room worked hard to do a good job. One day he made a comment about how he had to listen to people from his neighborhood make fun of him, and I told him something along the lines of "You have a job, and you do good work at your job. That is something to be proud of and you shouldn't pay much attention to critics." The first full time job I worked at sucked in a big way, for Midwest Dairymen in the creamery in Cabool, Mo, mostly making Enfamil. I laughed at the foreman's comment the day I quit when he told me I should stay, I was learning the job pretty well, I just told him I learned the job the first week, it's not like it was brain surgery, mostly just industrial sized house keeping of mixers and piping. I made the mistake of diligent work and inherited the cream room full time since the bacteria counts were so low when I worked in there. The next job sucked just as bad, except instead of dripping steam, I damn near froze to death. |
| I usually give at least 6 months unless its for a reason i cant ignore. I fired someone after 2 days earlier this year. She flat out lied about her education and certifications on her resume. When the education verification and background check came back to me, she was walked out the door within an hour. |
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OP, he's already been there too long.
By firing this kid, you'll be doing him a huge favor, he needs a WORK ETHIC and jobs are hard to come by, GOOD jobs even HARDER. Ignore what some of the shitheads on the board say about wage -v- ya should have done XYZ. Even a crappy min wage job + good work ethic eventually leads to BETTER. You have this kid in a decent job where UP is the direction you go with a GOOD WORK ETHIC, he fails on every spire to meet the bare minimum performance standard. Call him into your office on payday with his FINAL CHECK, all money owed him, give him an exit interview so he understands fully why he is being sacked. Be polite, firm, walk him to your front door, shake his hand, help him out the door in a courteous but firm fashion that lets him know not to bother using you as a reference. When he gets home, he does one of two things" 1. Recognizes the error of his ways and examines his life, creates plan for developing a work ethic. (Not too likely) or 2. Chants "Fuck my ex boss, he's an asshole" for the next 6 months while he lives in grandma's basement, neckbearding .22lr ammo (more likely than option 1) Either way, your problem is solved. How long is long enough until you feel it is time to boot the slacker? Well, long enough for you to write this thread. |
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I stopped here. If three months is the written period, then that is it. You are now at the point where you need to begin documenting the screw-ups as part of your normal disciplinary procedure. If nothing is documented yet, you have some time to go before you can get rid of him properly. There is no benefit for either party by informally extending the trial period. You should have gotten rid of him before the 90 days were up. Quoted:
3 months is my written trial period I stopped here. If three months is the written period, then that is it. You are now at the point where you need to begin documenting the screw-ups as part of your normal disciplinary procedure. If nothing is documented yet, you have some time to go before you can get rid of him properly. There is no benefit for either party by informally extending the trial period. You should have gotten rid of him before the 90 days were up. At Will here in PA with one of the most free firing policies available (I think only 10 other states are as free to fire at will). |
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For a no skill helper position? Fuck that. "Hey, kid, you're fired, pick up your last check on Friday." "NEXT!" It's not like he's looking for a competent .NET Architect or a ASE Master Technician. *I* was an Electrician's Helper many moons ago and I could train a house cat to do 80 percent of that job. Quoted:
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What does this employee say about your issue? Does he know? Does he know he's supposed to move with quickness, as if time is of the essence? Does he have any notion of craftsmanship, or what working a craftsmanlike manner means? Does he understand the idea of taking pride in his work? Does he have any notion of working in a team, where every team member is important and depends on each other? Are there any other employees that he should look at as an example? I think I would discuss these and other related ideas with him, making expectations clear. I would send him home with a bag of tools with instructions to not only bring them all back, but be able to use all of them by the end of the week, or have questions if he can't figure it out on his own. I would set a deadline and make it clear to him what will happen if he doesn't shape up within a week. For a no skill helper position? Fuck that. "Hey, kid, you're fired, pick up your last check on Friday." "NEXT!" It's not like he's looking for a competent .NET Architect or a ASE Master Technician. *I* was an Electrician's Helper many moons ago and I could train a house cat to do 80 percent of that job. You're right, but these kids growing up have to get an inkling from some place. Trouble is, I think they're satisfied to do nothing and work the system, maybe scoring a sweet disability check, or something, heck I don't know what the hell is wrong with most of them. |