Posted: 4/12/2015 1:27:55 PM EDT
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So I was hanging out drinking with a buddy of mine last night. And were talking about the typical current events and what not, when we got on the topic of the recent police shootings. While talking about it he posed a very interesting question that I didn't have an answer to, it stumped us both actually. Though some of that may have been the booze. So I will pose the same question to GD and see what you have to say. Something I'm sure I will regret later.
The Question: "As a CCW you are allowed to use lethal force to defend yourself or others against someone attempting to harm them in the commission of a crime. There isn't anything to exempt peace officers from this law since it states that the individual has to be committing a crime. With the recent debate of bad shootings and the murder charge in Charleston. At what point does it become lawful to use lethal force to defend yourself, or someone else, against a police officer?" |
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It's absolutely legal to use lethal force to protect yourself from a threat to your life by wrongful or illegal action by a police officer (say the SWAT team raided the wrong house) - but you better have a good lawyer and be lucky.
If we're talking about use lethal force to protect someone else from a threat to their life, you better be 100% SURE you know what's going on, AND have a fucking amazing lawyer AND be lucky. |
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Quoted:
It's absolutely legal to use lethal force to protect yourself from a threat to your life by wrongful or illegal action by a police officer (say the SWAT team raided the wrong house) - but you better have a good lawyer and be lucky. If we're talking about use lethal force to protect someone else from a threat to their life, you better be 100% SURE you know what's going on, AND have a fucking amazing lawyer AND be lucky. Are we to read this as you are announcing Aimless has a license to practice law in all 50 states now? 
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Quoted:
Are we to read this as you are announcing Aimless has a license to practice law in all 50 states now?
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Quoted:
It's absolutely legal to use lethal force to protect yourself from a threat to your life by wrongful or illegal action by a police officer (say the SWAT team raided the wrong house) - but you better have a good lawyer and be lucky. If we're talking about use lethal force to protect someone else from a threat to their life, you better be 100% SURE you know what's going on, AND have a fucking amazing lawyer AND be lucky. Are we to read this as you are announcing Aimless has a license to practice law in all 50 states now?
I am sure Aimless is smart enough to not want to touch a case like that with a 10,000 ft pole. 
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Quoted:
Are we to read this as you are announcing Aimless has a license to practice law in all 50 states now?
Quoted:
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It's absolutely legal to use lethal force to protect yourself from a threat to your life by wrongful or illegal action by a police officer (say the SWAT team raided the wrong house) - but you better have a good lawyer and be lucky. If we're talking about use lethal force to protect someone else from a threat to their life, you better be 100% SURE you know what's going on, AND have a fucking amazing lawyer AND be lucky. Are we to read this as you are announcing Aimless has a license to practice law in all 50 states now?
I'm not sure that I would want the only person to be standing between me and the needle to be Arfcom Site Staff. |
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I'm not sure that I would want the only person to be standing between me and the needle to be Arfcom Site Staff. Quoted:
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It's absolutely legal to use lethal force to protect yourself from a threat to your life by wrongful or illegal action by a police officer (say the SWAT team raided the wrong house) - but you better have a good lawyer and be lucky. If we're talking about use lethal force to protect someone else from a threat to their life, you better be 100% SURE you know what's going on, AND have a fucking amazing lawyer AND be lucky. Are we to read this as you are announcing Aimless has a license to practice law in all 50 states now?
I'm not sure that I would want the only person to be standing between me and the needle to be Arfcom Site Staff. I bet the memorial thread would get nuked. 
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Quoted:
It's absolutely legal to use lethal force to protect yourself from a threat to your life by wrongful or illegal action by a police officer (say the SWAT team raided the wrong house) - but you better have a good lawyer and be lucky. If we're talking about use lethal force to protect someone else from a threat to their life, you better be 100% SURE you know what's going on, AND have a fucking amazing lawyer AND be lucky. In some states it is illegal to resist arrest even if the Police do not have PC at the time of the arrest. Now, with that being said, on a SWAT raid if you could reasonably articulate why you were in actual fear of your life and you could justify using lethal force against the SWAT team then you could make that argument. Like you said, have a very good lawyer. However, simply saying that you were in fear because the SWAT team was coming in likely would not fly even if you knew you did nothing wrong. They would argue had you complied, they/SWAT would not have posed a lethal threat because, even with the police recent apparent unlawful shootings/beatdowns, when people comply with a SWAT raid, regardless of its legality, greater than 99% of the time you will not be killed. |
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In North Carolina State vs Mobley "True the right of a person to use force in resisting an illegal arrest is not unlimited. He may use only such force as reasonably appears to be necessary to prevent the unlawful restraint of his liberty. State v. Allen, supra. See also State v. Glenn, 198 N.C. 79, 150 S.E. 663. And where excessive force is exerted, the person seeking to avoid arrest may be convicted of assault, or even of homicide if death ensues, 4 Am.Jur., Arrest, Sec. 92, but in no event may a conviction of the offense of resisting arrest be predicated upon resistance of an unlawful arrest." |
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In North Carolina State vs Mobley "True the right of a person to use force in resisting an illegal arrest is not unlimited. He may use only such force as reasonably appears to be necessary to prevent the unlawful restraint of his liberty. State v. Allen, supra. See also State v. Glenn, 198 N.C. 79, 150 S.E. 663. And where excessive force is exerted, the person seeking to avoid arrest may be convicted of assault, or even of homicide if death ensues, 4 Am.Jur., Arrest, Sec. 92, but in no event may a conviction of the offense of resisting arrest be predicated upon resistance of an unlawful arrest." You are talking about police..there is no way you can resist unlawful arrest only a little bit..they arnt going to let that happen..so it will require deadly force to stop it..... I honestly doubt you will live thru it, no matter how many of them you manage to stop....better chance of winning the lottery... |
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At common law, one has the right to resist an illegal arrest with force. That right has been abrogated by statute in many jurisdictions. However, AFAIK all US jurisdictions allow the use of force to resist unlawful or excessive force by the police.
The problem with answering the question in the OP is that it has become so common for police to threaten deadly force in situations where it is not (or would not be for a private citizen) lawful to do so. It is commonplace to hold people at gunpoint during warrant executions even when there is no specific information that any of the subjects are armed or will resist violently. If Joe Citizen points a gun at you when you have offered him no specific reason to do so, you may lawfully shoot him if you are able. I suspect that one would be legally justified in shooting a policeman who did the same. Whether one would survive the event and the court proceedings is another question. |
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Quoted: It's absolutely legal to use lethal force to protect yourself from a threat to your life by wrongful or illegal action by a police officer (say the SWAT team raided the wrong house) - but you better have a good lawyer and be lucky. If we're talking about use lethal force to protect someone else from a threat to their life, you better be 100% SURE you know what's going on, AND have a fucking amazing lawyer AND be lucky. |
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So hypothetically "yes." Practically "no." Quoted:
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It's absolutely legal to use lethal force to protect yourself from a threat to your life by wrongful or illegal action by a police officer (say the SWAT team raided the wrong house) - but you better have a good lawyer and be lucky. If we're talking about use lethal force to protect someone else from a threat to their life, you better be 100% SURE you know what's going on, AND have a fucking amazing lawyer AND be lucky. Which is what I figured. As terrible of a reference as I am about to make, I feel it is applicable here. I used to watch a ton of old cop dramas that had corrupt cops in them. And whenever a character resisted the corrupt cop or killed the cop doing illegal things. Even when they were in the right for fighting back, they were buried under an avalanche of bullshit charges and falsified evidence. It was always easy to get people behind destroying a "cop killer". So what would you do if you were forced to make the decision? Would you accept the unlawful arrest or use of force, hope you live, and sue sue sue? Or would you resist with lethal force, knowing the legal shit storm that would ensue? |
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It would require double the amount of discretion that defending another would require. We had a recent thread where dozens of members said they don't even have the awareness to defend another from death or serious bodily injury because shit is just always so complicated. |
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It would require double the amount of discretion that defending another would require. We had a recent thread where dozens of members said they don't even have the awareness to defend another from death or serious bodily injury because shit is just always so complicated. What if we took defending another off of the table and talked about self defense. Reading some of the comments has made me wonder if we haven't made it so supremely difficult to defend your position that we have essentially made defending yourself against unlawful police force illegal. |
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In some states it is illegal to resist arrest even if the Police do not have PC at the time of the arrest. Now, with that being said, on a SWAT raid if you could reasonably articulate why you were in actual fear of your life and you could justify using lethal force against the SWAT team then you could make that argument. Like you said, have a very good lawyer. However, simply saying that you were in fear because the SWAT team was coming in likely would not fly even if you knew you did nothing wrong. They would argue had you complied, they/SWAT would not have posed a lethal threat because, even with the police recent apparent unlawful shootings/beatdowns, when people comply with a SWAT raid, regardless of its legality, greater than 99% of the time you will not be killed. Quoted:
Quoted:
It's absolutely legal to use lethal force to protect yourself from a threat to your life by wrongful or illegal action by a police officer (say the SWAT team raided the wrong house) - but you better have a good lawyer and be lucky. If we're talking about use lethal force to protect someone else from a threat to their life, you better be 100% SURE you know what's going on, AND have a fucking amazing lawyer AND be lucky. In some states it is illegal to resist arrest even if the Police do not have PC at the time of the arrest. Now, with that being said, on a SWAT raid if you could reasonably articulate why you were in actual fear of your life and you could justify using lethal force against the SWAT team then you could make that argument. Like you said, have a very good lawyer. However, simply saying that you were in fear because the SWAT team was coming in likely would not fly even if you knew you did nothing wrong. They would argue had you complied, they/SWAT would not have posed a lethal threat because, even with the police recent apparent unlawful shootings/beatdowns, when people comply with a SWAT raid, regardless of its legality, greater than 99% of the time you will not be killed. Most people I know,and I'm sure plenty here have a nightstand gun and if they hear the door being kicked down that gun will be in their hand. I'm sure the swat officer will see a gun and it may not end up to well for the home owner. As to them announcing that they are police there have been some break ins around my area and other places where the perps yell police when they kick down the door. |
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I am sure Aimless is smart enough to not want to touch a case like that with a 10,000 ft pole. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's absolutely legal to use lethal force to protect yourself from a threat to your life by wrongful or illegal action by a police officer (say the SWAT team raided the wrong house) - but you better have a good lawyer and be lucky. If we're talking about use lethal force to protect someone else from a threat to their life, you better be 100% SURE you know what's going on, AND have a fucking amazing lawyer AND be lucky. Are we to read this as you are announcing Aimless has a license to practice law in all 50 states now?
I am sure Aimless is smart enough to not want to touch a case like that with a 10,000 ft pole. Aimless is smart enough to know that it depends on the net worth of the client. sigp226? "GTFO." Donald Trump? "My client acted within the law and we welcome the chance to prove our case in court for six months at $950 per hour." |
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Quoted: 1. It's absolutely legal to use lethal force to protect yourself from a threat to your life by wrongful or illegal action by a police officer (say the SWAT team raided the wrong house) - but you better have a good lawyer and be lucky. 2. If we're talking about use lethal force to protect someone else from a threat to their life, you better be 100% SURE you know what's going on, AND have a fucking amazing lawyer AND be lucky. 1. That would probably be the worst day of my life. It would go south rapidly afterwards, even if I didn't get convicted. 2. It would have to be someone close to me, or a kid. I doubt I would risk that for an adult, as I doubt I would be privy to the details that matter. |
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So I was hanging out drinking with a buddy of mine last night. And were talking about the typical current events and what not, when we got on the topic of the recent police shootings. While talking about it he posed a very interesting question that I didn't have an answer to, it stumped us both actually. Though some of that may have been the booze. So I will pose the same question to GD and see what you have to say. Something I'm sure I will regret later. The Question: "As a CCW you are allowed to use lethal force to defend yourself or others against someone attempting to harm them in the commission of a crime. There isn't anything to exempt peace officers from this law since it states that the individual has to be committing a crime. With the recent debate of bad shootings and the murder charge in Charleston. At what point does it become lawful to use lethal force to defend yourself, or someone else, against a police officer?" Sober up and then ask yourself the question again.
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