Posted: 2/21/2003 7:36:19 PM EDT
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Cause I'm bored and think of this stuff. If someone is born Jewish but does NOT practice ANY religion (Judaism, Christinaity, etc.), do they still get a free skate? Also if someone is not born but converts to Judaism do they qualify for a pass without accepting Christ? Or is it just those of the Jewish race? And no I'm not thinking bout converting, I'd miss bacon cheeseburgers too damn much. [:D] |
| The Jewish people are indeed Gods chosen people. The only ones who get the "free skate" as you put it are those pre-Christ Jews (if they followed the law). If you are a Christian you HAVE to believe that Christ is the only way to heaven. Jewish people are not allowed a "free pass" just cause they are Jewish. |
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Um - I don't think Jews are a "race" per se. What I want to know is whether people who lived before Christ get to go to heaven - like Moses and Noah. If accepting Christ is the key, are they out in the cold? That would seem really unfair - after all the work they did. |
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Yeah, [b]SteyrAUG[/b], it's just as [b]Tonys68l36[/b] says. Under the Law, the High Priest's annual sacrifice at Passover sanctified all Jews, and their individual sacrifices made thoughout the year bought forgiveness, as well. They must be under the Law, however, when they died - they did believe that some Jews would be consigned to Gehenna, dying outside the Law. After the Founding of the Christian Church, it is necessary for all to 'come to Jesus.' The mere fact that you are distantly related to Abraham means nothing to the Lord. The very stones under your feet could just as easily be made into Children of Abraham. Now this is all from a Christian perspective. The views of the Jews would differ. We are both looking for Messiah. The only difference is we know His name. He's been here before. He's returned. Eric The(Fundamentalist)Hun[>]:)] |
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Eric, I was making a referrence to some "End of Days" chance that only Jews get. You mentioned it awhile back and I don't remember exactly what you said. DK-Prof, that is kinda the rub. While Judaism is a religion (and Sammy Davis can be Jewish) they are also a race (but Sammy ain't one of them). And this isn't me being racist, most Jews I know consider themselves of the Jewish "race." |
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Quoted: Eric, I was making a referrence to some "End of Days" chance that only Jews get. You mentioned it awhile back and I don't remember exactly what you said. 144,000 is the number of Jews who will come to accept Christ as the Messiah and will in turn lead others to Christ during the tribulation...Still no free pass...The Sealed (as the 144,00 are called) will not be subject to the plagues and judgements during the end times. They also get to sing a cool song that only they know. |
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Don't mean too hijack this,but I gotta couplea questions. Is the Jews "god" the same as the Chritians? And who is Christ to the jews? I mean if I understand it right believers in Islam think Christ was a profit,but not nessecarily the son of God,and that Muhamid was the last profit.Closest too God. |
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Quoted: Even those saved in the 'End of Days' or 'End of Times' MUST accept [b]Jesus[/b] as Who He is. But they will. At least some of them. Maybe only 144,000 or so, according to some. But numbers! Who needs numbers? Eric The(EndTimes)Hun[>]:)] That's it. But my original questions still apply to those 144,000. If someone is born Jewish but does NOT practice ANY religion (Judaism, Christinaity, etc.), are they eligible for this last chance that everyone else don't get? And everyone else, we ain't going at it. I'm just asking questions. |
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NT is only through Christ and OT is follow God's laws, got that part. Why two sets of rules? And if God made a promise to Abraham and his decedents why would that original promise be null and void? Can you still get to Heaven by following the laws set in the OT? Same here, asking questions only. |
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Post from Byron2112 - Is the Jews "god" the same as the Chritians? Sure. One and the Same. He is the God of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac, alike in both the Old (Hebrew) Testament and the New Testament! And who is Christ to the jews? If you are referring to the Historical Person named [b]Jesus[/b], Who was and is, and always will be the [b]Christ[/b], or, more properly, the [b]Messiah[/b], 'God's Annointed.' The Historical [b]Jesus[/b] was initially held in the highest disregard and subject to the worst abuses in Jewish synagogues following His Ministry, Death, and Resurrection. As early as the last part of the First Century AD, the Jews used this phrase when referring to the Historical Jesus, rather than saying His name, they would simply say, 'the bastard of the whore.' Not exactly an ecumenical attitude towards a fellow Jew, eh? Considering all the persecutions, pogroms, and finally, a Holocaust, it is easy to understand that to the typical Jew of the Holy Land, Asia Minor, Eastern Europe, Russia, Ukraine, the Baltics, Spain and Portugal, during certain periods of time, the Name of [b]Jesus Christ[/b] was not one that was very pleasant. As a matter of fact, towards the end of that First Century AD, the Jews ceased naming their sons [b]Yeshua[/b], which is the Hebrew root word for the Greek [b]'Jesus'[/b], which is very telling. What is even more telling, is that around the same time, the Jews stopped naming their sons, Judas, as well. Eric The(Historical)Hun[>]:)] |
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Post from Byron2112 - Is the Jews "god" the same as the Chritians? Sure. One and the Same. He is the God of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac, alike in both the Old (Hebrew) Testament and the New Testament! And who is Christ to the jews? If you are referring to the Historical Person named [b]Jesus[/b], Who was and is, and always will be the [b]Christ[/b], or, more properly, the [b]Messiah[/b], 'God's Annointed.' The Historical [b]Jesus[/b] was initially held in the highest disregard and subject to the worst abuses in Jewish synagogues following His Ministry, Death, and Resurrection. As early as the last part of the First Century AD, the Jews used this phrase when referring to the Historical [b]Jesus[/b], rather than saying His name, they would simply say, 'the bastard of the whore.' Not exactly an ecumenical attitude towards a fellow Jew, eh? Considering all the persecutions, pogroms, and finally, a Holocaust, it is easy to understand that to the typical Jew of the Holy Land, Asia Minor, Eastern Europe, Russia, Ukraine, the Baltics, Spain and Portugal, during certain periods of time, the Name of [b]Jesus Christ[/b] was not one that was very pleasant. As a matter of fact, towards the end of that First Century AD, the Jews ceased naming their sons [b]Yeshua[/b], which is the Hebrew root word for the Greek [b]'Jesus'[/b], which is very telling. What is even more telling, is that around the same time, the Jews stopped naming their sons, Judas, as well. In more modern times, a lot of Jewish rabbis and lawyers have come to look on the Historical [b]Jesus[/b], as an amazing Rabbi that taught typical Jewish sayings in ways that transformed them into some of the most profound human utterances ever. There are also quite a few Messianic Jews who accept [b]Jesus[/b], as the [b]Messiah[/b], and worship Him, as the Son of God. That realized that only the very Son of God could ever cleanse the World of its sinful stain. They attend Messianic Temples on Saturdays and celebrate all of the traditional Jewish feasts and holidays. They do the most incredible Seder meal that you have ever seen! Every Jew should attend their Passover Seders - they are done in just the manner that the Lord's Supper was performed in that Upper Room, stressing all the messianic symbolism of the Passover Meal. The Third Cup of the Seder, is called the Cup of redemption. It is this Third Cup that the Lord divided among his 11 Disciples that dark night of His betrayal. And the bitterness of that Passover was unmatched. It was a simple Paschal lamb that was being offered at the altar at the Northeast corner of the Temple's enclosure, while the Lamb of God was being contemporaneously offered at Calvary at the Northeat corner of the City of the Lord. It was, as Alfred Edersheim said in his 'Life & Times of Jesus the Messiah', the day that Judaism died. Eric The(Historical)Hun[>]:)] |
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Post from SteyrAUG - If someone is born Jewish but does NOT practice ANY religion (Judaism, Christinaity, etc.), are they eligible for this last chance that everyone else don't get? Who says no one else gets a 'second chance'? It's my understanding that when those days come, there will be a lot of changing minds among a lot of folks. And those folks whose minds will be changed will be made up of everyone. All nations and peoples. But you must understand, [b]SteyrAUG[/b], we don't have any idea that THESE are the days and that we are already in some countdown to Armageddon. I am from a company of believers who think that there is no Rapture per se, other than the one that takes everyone to Heaven at the very same time - the dead in Christ, the ones who are alive at His Coming, everyone. So to me, when the Final Trumpet sounds, it is already over. Much too late to change anything. [b]There will be no more Days of Salvation, there will only be a Day of Judgment.[/b] Eric The(Fundamentalist)Hun[>]:)] |
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Quoted: Don't mean too hijack this,but I gotta couplea questions. Is the Jews "god" the same as the Chritians? And who is Christ to the jews? I mean if I understand it right believers in Islam think Christ was a profit,but not nessecarily the son of God,and that Muhamid was the last profit.Closest too God. Same God for Jews and Christians. The thing that changed was that Christ came to die for our sins and provide a way to heaven. The Jewish religion does/did not believe that Christ was the Messiah. Therefore they are still practicing their faith under the old Law. As for Islam...I do not really know how they muslims got all confused. First nthey say he is a great prophet and bless him or something like that...then they say kill all Christians??? Abraham was the father to Ishmael and Isaac. Ishmael was the maidservants son and Isaac was his wifes son. Ishmael and his mother (Hagar)were sent away. This is the beginning of the hostility towards each other. |
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Post from Byron2112 - So the Jews believe that Jesus is the son of God? Nope. The very First Christians were Jews, but not in large enough numbers to constitute anything other than a sect of Judaism, who worshipped [b]Jesus[/b] as the Son of God. Other than the Messianic Jews who I described above, no Jews today think that [b]Jesus[/b] is the Lord's Messiah, or the Son of God! Eric The(Helpful)Hun[>]:)] |
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Quoted: You know it's just as [b]SteyrAUG[/b] says, [b]1GUNRUNNER[/b], he's bored and I amuse him. Simple as that! Eric the(Foolish)Hun[>]:)] Not really so diabolical. More like I think up this stuff (usually when bored) and you are the only one who actually knows this stuff. So to elaborate. Does "everyone" get a chance to change their answer at the buzzer, or just the Jews? I'm trying to find out how/if the Jews are afforded special considerations being tehy are the "chosen" people. And IF they are which Jews? Those born Jewish or those who practice Judaism? |
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As I say, [b]SteyrAUG[/b], my own personal views do not permit any 'second chance' for anyone, but I am familiar with the views of what is sometimes called millenialist - the creation of a 1,000 year Kingdom on Earth. Except for one unclear verse in Revelation, there would never be anyone who would consider such a thing. But since it's there, and some folks have to find something that has the Jews in possession of the Holy Land and Jerusalem [u]after[/u] the Rapture, this one verse supports their views. It's nothing crucial, just remember that where you spend eternity depends on you getting this right. So get it right. Eric The(AllRight?)Hun[>]:)] |
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Quoted: I mean if I understand it right believers in Islam think Christ was a profit,but not nessecarily the son of God,and that Muhamid was the last profit.Closest too God. Yes, all of the Christian and Jewish prophets are prophets in Islam too, but Muhammed was the last one. Till Muhammed came, the word of god, AKA Torah/Bible, was mistaken, because men changed the words. Christians and Jews are called people of the book, because they believe in god and they mean to follow the word of god despite the fact that their book was written incorrectly when it went from gods word to a written book. Im tired, I shouldnt be posting the hard stuff. |
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What's going on here??? I go to sleep and you guys start up an interesting thread. Don't you guys sleep? It always interests me to hear the mixed-up beliefs that people have about what the scripture says. And I don't mean that in a critical way. It's just that the Bible is so clear, and so widely available, I can't understand how an educated person would not understand something as clear as "Do the Jews believe in Jesus?" I bet you guys would never argue about what happens in "Lord of The Rings" without having read the book. But many folks will listen and internalize opinions from people that have never read the Bible. And the Bible is a lot more important than LOTR or any other book. |
| This "Chen" comment always comes up in these treads...Chen and anyone else (no matter how "good" they are) who do not accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior go to Hell. The only possible argument/exception is children (i.e. age of accountability). Christians believe there is only ONE way to heaven. |
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Quoted: The Jewish people are indeed Gods chosen people. The only ones who get the "free skate" as you put it are those pre-Christ Jews (if they followed the law). If you are a Christian you HAVE to believe that Christ is the only way to heaven. Jewish people are not allowed a "free pass" just cause they are Jewish. [red]Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.[/red] Keeping the law NEVER has been a basis for salvation. Because of the inherent sin problem each of us (and every OT Jew and Gentile) are born with. EVEN IF a Jew kept the whole law, he would STILL be a sinner before God. ANd you CANNOT say that God changed the rules from teh OT to the NT. [red]Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with [b]whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.[/b][/red] See what GOd said of Abraham's means of gaining justification before God... [red]Ga 3:6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness[/red] Salvation is by faith alone. EVEN in Abrahams day. It is for THESE reasons I so strongly call that our message to ALL jewish peoples NOT be one of grabbing land in the Middle East.... [red]Mt 6:19 ¶ Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: Mt 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:[/red] ...but our message OUGHT be one of calling them to Christ Jesus. |
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Quoted: What I want to know is whether people who lived before Christ get to go to heaven - like Moses and Noah. If accepting Christ is the key, are they out in the cold? That would seem really unfair - after all the work they did. DK - Since no one else grabbed your question, I will, as its a good one. Christ speaks of Abraham (as well as other OT charachters) being in Heaven. What's interesting to note is HOW Abraham gained favor with God. [red]Ga 3:6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness[/red] You see, salvation has ALWAYS been thru faith. Keeping the law NEVER justified a man before GOd. After all, remember, Abraham was [b]BEFORE[/b] the giving of the law. |
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Here we go again. The Bible, The Word... the revealed will of Jesus Christ the Son of God... does not address whether or not Chen and his extended and dead family go to heaven or hell. What we do know is that Christs judgement and mercy are perfect. If someone truly has no inkling of the existance of Christ Jesus, then they are going to be judged by the Lord as they are. The Book tells us to speak where it speaks and to stay silent where it stays silent... all those things unspoken are under the strict purview of Christ himself and are NOT open to human interpretation. Chen and his ilk fall into this category. Christ will judge ALL perfectly and justly... what makes a man think that Chen will receive any different judgement than those who know Christ? Those wise fools who insist upon posing this question are like unto the biblical pharisees who sought to tempt Christ with leading questions until Christ confounded their earthly wisdom beyond refutation. Those who seek to be modern day pharisees shall rue the day they sought to put questions to Christ, the Son of the Living God, thinking themselves wise. I were, that it was not so... but it is. May the Lord have pity on them on that final day. Dram out |
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I think the scriptures are clear as to what is required to be with the Lord in His glory after our natural body perishes. Obeying the law was impossible, so no-one ever got to heaven through that means. That leaves One Way left. His name is Jesus and "Whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." Jew or Gentile, rich or poor, slave or free, weak or strong, you must believe in Jesus and accept the gift of His salvation. |
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This thread have any room for an Agnostic? Quoted: This "Chen" comment always comes up in these treads...[b]Chen and anyone else (no matter how "good" they are) who do not accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior go to Hell.[/b] The only possible argument/exception is children (i.e. age of accountability). Christians believe there is only ONE way to heaven. This kinda crap is what makes me call bullshit on the religion gig. My way or the highway. Nothing gets me pissed like some zealot sending me to hell prematurely. BTW, where do we get all these "facts"? The Bible? Is there some other reference available? I know this too probably always comes up in these posts, but how do we know the Bible is accurate? How do we know it's not (gasp) fiction? I'll be the first to admit, I've never read the Bible, with the exception of a few rantings I and am genuinely curious as to how so many people can believe in it. |
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Quoted: It's just that the Bible is so clear, and so widely available, I can't understand how an educated person would not understand something as clear as "Do the Jews believe in Jesus?" From my understanding the King James version is the most widely used version in the U.S., but that it not true for the rest of the world, nor is King James version the only version in use in the U.S. I have also noticed that many Christians in the U.S. (or at least in Prescott, AZ) only read the New Testament, and then refer to some choice verses in the Old Testament. At one point I asked a couple of members of Campus Crusade for Christ (don't you just love that name?!) at the college where I work, why they had not read the Old Testament in its entirety? The asnwers I got were "It's boring," and "Jesus isn't in it." "Well," I added, "it kinda sets everything up for Jesus, so you know where he came from, what culture he was brought up in. Isn't that important to understanding his message?" I was quite stunned when they more or less in unison replied "No." |
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Who is Chen? Is he a real person or a metaphorical figure? Ok, here is another serious question: In the Jewish faith, can a non-Jewish person convert, become a Jew, and become part of the chosen people? Or is that limited to actually being a descendant of the original Jews? |
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Post from ckapsl - In the Jewish faith, can a non-Jewish person convert, become a Jew, and become part of the chosen people? Sure. It was done in Biblical times, and is done these days, as well. How do you think Liz Taylor and Sammie Davis, Jr., 'became' Jewish? Or is that limited to actually being a descendant of the original Jews? Nope. I would say that after Sammie's induction, the doors were pretty wide open for all! Eric The(ProselyteIsTheWord)Hun[>]:)] |
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Quoted: Quoted: The Jewish people are indeed Gods chosen people. The only ones who get the "free skate" as you put it are those pre-Christ Jews (if they followed the law). If you are a Christian you HAVE to believe that Christ is the only way to heaven. Jewish people are not allowed a "free pass" just cause they are Jewish. [red]Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.[/red] Keeping the law NEVER has been a basis for salvation. Because of the inherent sin problem each of us (and every OT Jew and Gentile) are born with. EVEN IF a Jew kept the whole law, he would STILL be a sinner before God. ANd you CANNOT say that God changed the rules from teh OT to the NT. [red]Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with [b]whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.[/b][/red] See what GOd said of Abraham's means of gaining justification before God... [red]Ga 3:6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness[/red] Salvation is by faith alone. EVEN in Abrahams day. It is for THESE reasons I so strongly call that our message to ALL jewish peoples NOT be one of grabbing land in the Middle East.... [red]Mt 6:19 ¶ Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: Mt 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:[/red] ...but our message OUGHT be one of calling them to Christ Jesus. The original question was in regards to if the Jewish people got into heaven(or got a pass as he put it) just cause they were Jewish and did not accepted Jesus. The only ones pre -Jesus Christ are the Jews who through their faith followed the law. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law,has been made known,to which the law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all that believe. Romans 3:21-22 NIV Kay9, I encourage you to take some time to read the bible. You know this whole thing we call life did not just happen by accident. remember.. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall NEVER perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world,but to save the world through him. Sound like a pretty loving God to me... For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen,being understood from what has been made,so men are without excuse. Romans 1:20 NIV |
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Quoted: Post from ckapsl - In the Jewish faith, can a non-Jewish person convert, become a Jew, and become part of the chosen people? Sure. It was done in Biblical times, and is done these days, as well. How do you think Liz Taylor and Sammie Davis, Jr., 'became' Jewish? Or is that limited to actually being a descendant of the original Jews? Nope. I would say that after Sammie's induction, the doors were pretty wide open for all! Eric The(ProselyteIsTheWord)Hun[>]:)] So is Sammy in hell? [:D] On a side note, I'm glad my somewhat facetious post gave some of you the opportunity to further your understanding of your faith. |
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Quoted: This thread have any room for an Agnostic? Quoted: This "Chen" comment always comes up in these treads...[b]Chen and anyone else (no matter how "good" they are) who do not accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior go to Hell.[/b] The only possible argument/exception is children (i.e. age of accountability). Christians believe there is only ONE way to heaven. This kinda crap is what makes me call bullshit on the religion gig. My way or the highway. Nothing gets me pissed like some zealot sending me to hell prematurely. BTW, where do we get all these "facts"? The Bible? Is there some other reference available? I know this too probably always comes up in these posts, but how do we know the Bible is accurate? How do we know it's not (gasp) fiction? I'll be the first to admit, I've never read the Bible, with the exception of a few rantings I and am genuinely curious as to how so many people can believe in it. That "crap" is word from the Lords mouth. You can choose to believe it, or to ignore it. You already claim to be agnostic, which means you should just ignore it. Well... Unless you actually believe in God. If you do, you should believe it. You can also ask yourself this question.."When I die, will I go to heaven?" Every saved Christian [red]knows[/red] the absolute answer. If you cannot or will not answer the question, you can be pretty sure that you will end-up on the wrong side of death. |