[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Lessons from World War 2 (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 11/19/2014 9:02:33 PM EDT
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Lately, I've been spending some of my time on youtube watching a bunch of WW2 related gaming videos and documentaries and it got me to thinking about what are some of the lessons that could be learned from that time period. For example, what mistakes did each side make and what things did each side do right? If the results from one campaign had turned out differently then how would it have effected the overall timeline of the war? Again, for example, like Operation Market Garden---had it worked like it was intended to could the European part of the war have really been ended by Christmas of 44? How about the nuke attacks on Japan? What if we had not used nukes and had to invade the island of Japan itself? What would that have looked like and how long would the war have been drug out as a result? How many casualties would have probably occurred during a Japan Invasion campaign? One of the lessons that I think we can learn is one of the reasons Germany lost is because their forces and resources became stretched to thin because they eventually had to fight a three front war---one in western europe, another in the med/north africa/italian peninsula and the war on the eastern front against russia. Also, I think, as a general rule, allied leaders (like Patton for example) were more qualified than many of their counterparts on the axis side. Similarly, mussolini in italy was a weak link in the axis powers and he became a burden to hitler and his overall plans for control over greater europe. What other lessons could we learn from WW2 that could possibly still be applied today in modern warfare? |
| you don't fight with stupid ass rules of engagement. you go all to destroy the enemy wherever he is. civilians should never be targeted, but if there in the wrong place at the wrong time too fucking bad its war. it sucks and get it over with as quickly as possible. |
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Quoted: you don't fight with stupid ass rules of engagement. you go all to destroy the enemy wherever he is. civilians should never be targeted, but if there in the wrong place at the wrong time too fucking bad its war. it sucks and get it over with as quickly as possible. I especially agree with the parts in red. |
| Germany should have ignored Britain and not gone into Russia and sued for peace . That Hitler had the tools to win but was too much of a micro manager to use them when they were first delivered , The ME-262 and STG-44 are good examples . The problem with north Africa was supply lines . Japan would have fought to the last man without nukes , They were still deep in China when the war ended . We gave Russia more than we should have at end of war negotiations . This is a start |
| I can't even begin to respond to the original post without brainstorming an argumentative essay documenting unnecessary human casualties in that dreadful conflict. I mean, how many fucking American lives were wasted when SAC MacArthur was throwing his diva hissy fit in the PTO for his "reconquest" of the Philippines? |
| Since we are just spit-balling, I'll say t b at we went way too far with lend lease. We could have been in a much better position if the Soviets didn't get quite so many trucks or trains from the United States. Hell, I'd even settle for the Brits not giving them the Nene. Bottom line, we enabled the Soviets to start the cold war. |
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you don't fight with stupid ass rules of engagement. you go all to destroy the enemy wherever he is. civilians should never be targeted, but if there in the wrong place at the wrong time too fucking bad its war. it sucks and get it over with as quickly as possible. There were ALOT of civilian targeting by the Allies in WW2. I agree with what they did. |
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Lately, I've been spending some of my time on youtube watching a bunch of WW2 related gaming videos and documentaries and it got me to thinking about what are some of the lessons that could be learned from that time period. For example, what mistakes did each side make and what things did each side do right? If the results from one campaign had turned out differently then how would it have effected the overall timeline of the war? Again, for example, like Operation Market Garden---had it worked like it was intended to could the European part of the war have really been ended by Christmas of 44? How about the nuke attacks on Japan? What if we had not used nukes and had to invade the island of Japan itself? What would that have looked like and how long would the war have been drug out as a result? How many casualties would have probably occurred during a Japan Invasion campaign? One of the lessons that I think we can learn is one of the reasons Germany lost is because their forces and resources became stretched to thin because they eventually had to fight a three front war---one in western europe, another in the med/north africa/italian peninsula and the war on the eastern front against russia. Also, I think, as a general rule, allied leaders (like Patton for example) were more qualified than many of their counterparts on the axis side. Similarly, mussolini in italy was a weak link in the axis powers and he became a burden to hitler and his overall plans for control over greater europe. What other lessons could we learn from WW2 that could possibly still be applied today in modern warfare? i wouldnt have any lesson to learn, because i highly doubt i'd be here. grandpa was being shipped to the pacific for the invasion of the mainland when the war ended after being wounded in france. you'll never convince me the a-bombs were a bad idea. fuck those fuckers. they started everything on 12/7/41, we finished it. total war is the lesson we should learn. kill them all and let god sort it out. right or wrong, that's my opinion. |
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Quoted: Excepting current events in Ukraine and then, of course, what went down in Yugoslavia/Serbia/Kosovo (and not downplaying either of those two events), historically speaking, Europe has been fairly quiet for quite a while. Hmm... I think this can be attributed to generally pretty decent political and military leadership that existed in western europe and the usa during the post war years. The serbia/yugoslavia/kosovo thing went bad during the clinton administration and the ukraine thing has gone bad during obama's tenure. Gee whiz, european tensions rise and even go hot for a bit during the presidential terms of two left wing u.s presidents. Golly gee...I'm shocked. Ditto for iran during the carter administration.  |
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Probably the biggest thing to learn is about the equipment each side made:
The Germans made equipment with outstanding performance but it was often unreliable and expensive. They lost the war. The Russians made vast amounts of crude weapons they won but suffered huge losses. The Japanese made small amounts of mostly crappy equipment, trusted to the fighting spirit of their men and got their ass handed to them. The Americans made vast amounts of good quality, reliable and affordable equipment, won the war and suffered the fewest losses. We need to be like we were in WWII, lot of good equipment that will work under all conditions and that we can afford to build in large quantities. A good example is the M4. It may not be perfect, but it works and it's not very expensive. A bad example is almost every new plane design of the last 20 years. |
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you don't fight with stupid ass rules of engagement. you go all to destroy the enemy wherever he is. civilians should never be targeted, but if there in the wrong place at the wrong time too fucking bad its war. it sucks and get it over with as quickly as possible. We targeted a lot of civilians in WW2. The 2 bombs we dropped on Japan were estimated to have saved a half million US casualties projected if we would have had to invade Japan. War sucks and as a gereral rule I agree civilian casualities should be avoided if at all possible. But never? I don't agree with never. |
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Quoted: There were ALOT of civilian targeting by the Allies in WW2. I agree with what they did. Quoted: Quoted: you don't fight with stupid ass rules of engagement. you go all to destroy the enemy wherever he is. civilians should never be targeted, but if there in the wrong place at the wrong time too fucking bad its war. it sucks and get it over with as quickly as possible. There were ALOT of civilian targeting by the Allies in WW2. I agree with what they did. Dresden bombing? Raping and looting in Prussia and Berlin? |
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If we hadn't used the nukes on Japan, my father, my siblings and I more than likely wouldn't have been born. My Grandfather was a Dr., who landed with the occupying troops after the bombs were dropped. He told me, that he was always issued a sidearm, but was given a rifle before they landed. He said when they landed the Japanese troops lined the mountain tops, like the Indians did in the old movies. He told me that if the bombs hadn't been dropped the invasion would have been horrific, because the Japanese would have never quit fighting until they were ALL dead. |
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Dresden bombing? Raping and looting in Prussia and Berlin? Quoted:
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you don't fight with stupid ass rules of engagement. you go all to destroy the enemy wherever he is. civilians should never be targeted, but if there in the wrong place at the wrong time too fucking bad its war. it sucks and get it over with as quickly as possible. There were ALOT of civilian targeting by the Allies in WW2. I agree with what they did. Dresden bombing? Raping and looting in Prussia and Berlin? Shit happens when you party naked. "Also, don't start none, won't be none". 
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Fixed. de la Gardie succeeded in taking Moscow, and he did so in Wintertime. Quoted:
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Hitler should have learned from Napoleon de la Gardie. Fixed. de la Gardie succeeded in taking Moscow, and he did so in Wintertime. Do they speak French in Moscow? |
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Hitler should have learned from Napoleon de la Gardie. Fixed. de la Gardie succeeded in taking Moscow, and he did so in Wintertime. Then this happened: http://i.imgur.com/AcpP95y.png 
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There was a article I read a while back that gave a interesting perspective on the Japanese surrender to us. Many think the bomb did it.. but I don't think so.
Think as if you were the Japanese during WW2. Are you worried about having your cities bombed since you only have two populated cities left anyway or more concerned with the Russians invading from the north where you have hardly any defenses setup as you have prepared the south for a American invasion and war on two fronts looked inevitable? Fight? Surrender to the Americans? Divide the country? Surrender to the Russians? |
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Probably the biggest thing to learn is about the equipment each side made: The Germans made equipment with outstanding performance but it was often unreliable and expensive. They lost the war. The Russians made vast amounts of crude weapons they won but suffered huge losses. The Japanese made small amounts of mostly crappy equipment, trusted to the fighting spirit of their men and got their ass handed to them. The Americans made vast amounts of good quality, reliable and affordable equipment, won the war and suffered the fewest losses. We need to be like we were in WWII, lot of good equipment that will work under all conditions and that we can afford to build in large quantities. A good example is the M4. It may not be perfect, but it works and it's not very expensive. A bad example is almost every new plane design of the last 20 years. Those are some very poor analogies for a multitude of reasons. |
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de la Gardie wasn't French. Quoted:
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Hitler should have learned from Napoleon de la Gardie. Fixed. de la Gardie succeeded in taking Moscow, and he did so in Wintertime. Do they speak French in Moscow? de la Gardie wasn't French. Took the roundabout way, but your history lesson is complete. |
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What other lessons could we learn from WW2 that could possibly still be applied today in modern warfare? Get your logistics in place, define your objectives, and stick to them. These lessons were applied correctly during the build-up and combat phases of both gulf wars. |
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I think the biggest lesson from WWII is the importance of leadership. You can have the most advanced tanks in the world, the fastest planes in the skies, the most brilliant battlefield commanders - but all of those things mean jack shit if an incompetent short tempered illogical jackass is running the show.
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You are talking about Afghanistan, 2014 aren't you? Quoted: I think the biggest lesson from WWII is the importance of leadership. You can have the most advanced tanks in the world, the fastest planes in the skies, the most brilliant battlefield commanders - but all of those things mean jack shit if an incompetent short tempered illogical jackass is running the show. |
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How about the nuke attacks on Japan? What if we had not used nukes and had to invade the island of Japan itself? What would that have looked like and how long would the war have been drug out as a result? How many casualties would have probably occurred during a Japan Invasion campaign? Operation Downfall ETA: The purple hearts ordered in anticipation of the invasion of japan was on the order of half a million. They were still handing them out in Iraq and Afghanistan. Japan new exactly where we would invade, and had prepared both it's military and civilian population to make it the most terrible slaughter anyone had ever seen. If B-29s hadn't unleashed atomic fire on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it's quite possible they would have been firebombing most of the rest of Southern Kyushu in order to prepare the way for the strike on Honshu. Not to mention that the Russians would also likely have gotten into it and you would have at least ended up with Red Hokkaido out of the deal. Perhaps somewhere they would have surrendered short of the total invasion massacre without the bombs, but when a nation has done what Japan did to China and others, you don't slack your hand in showing them it's time to give up or burn. Same for Dresden etc. Therein lays the lesson. ETAA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa82U3fJ7R4 |
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What other lessons could we learn from WW2 that could possibly still be applied today in modern warfare? Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it, but if you asked your question of the general population you'll also be hearing some people say there's nothing to be learned from a 70 year old conflict To many young people Viet Nam is ancient history, let alone an even earlier war that by now their Great Grandfather may have fought in..... |
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What if we had not used nukes and had to invade the island of Japan itself? What would that have looked like and how long would the war have been drug out as a result? How many casualties would have probably occurred during a Japan Invasion campaign? In the book "Semper Fi, Mac," the author interviewed one American officer who was able to view Operation Downfall, the plan to invade the Japanese homeland. The officer stated that after 2 weeks, his entire division wasn't even mentioned: it was presumed that it would have been destroyed. How about the nuke attacks on Japan? More JAPANESE would have died if we'd invaded an undefeated Home Islands. |
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Torpedo / weapons development and testing
The U.S. had a newer torpedo with magnetic exploder that was not real world tested with a live warhead. Everyone in BuoOrd claimed it worked, Admirals claimed it worked. Fault was given to boat captains. Eventually the magnetic exploder was found to be defective so it was disarmed. Low and behold the contact exploder was faulty as well. Problems were solved in early 1944, 3 years after war had begun. With tested and proved weapons, sub captains could have been sending more IJN to the bottom rather than denting the sides of their boats. Also, added to this was the slow manufacture of torpedoes which led to shortages and requirements that made clear to conserve the weapons. All this occurring at a time when war with Japan was eminent within the year, and whose Navy was arguably the best in the world at the time, whom we would fight at sea. |
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Hitler should have learned from Napoleon de la Gardie. Fixed. de la Gardie succeeded in taking Moscow, and he did so in Wintertime. Then this happened: http://i.imgur.com/AcpP95y.png Want to win? Need a Finn. 
Well, I guess he wasn't technically but his troops were mostly. |
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Want to win? Need a Finn.
Well, I guess he wasn't technically but his troops were mostly. Quoted:
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Hitler should have learned from Napoleon de la Gardie. Fixed. de la Gardie succeeded in taking Moscow, and he did so in Wintertime. Then this happened: http://i.imgur.com/AcpP95y.png Want to win? Need a Finn.
Well, I guess he wasn't technically but his troops were mostly. Finns are merely Swedes who happen to suffer from a speech impediment. |
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We targeted a lot of civilians in WW2. The 2 bombs we dropped on Japan were estimated to have saved a half million US casualties projected if we would have had to invade Japan. War sucks and as a gereral rule I agree civilian casualities should be avoided if at all possible. But never? I don't agree with never. Quoted:
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you don't fight with stupid ass rules of engagement. you go all to destroy the enemy wherever he is. civilians should never be targeted, but if there in the wrong place at the wrong time too fucking bad its war. it sucks and get it over with as quickly as possible. We targeted a lot of civilians in WW2. The 2 bombs we dropped on Japan were estimated to have saved a half million US casualties projected if we would have had to invade Japan. War sucks and as a gereral rule I agree civilian casualities should be avoided if at all possible. But never? I don't agree with never. Japan was a different situation. population was fanatical to the man and would fight to the death just like the army. most civilian populations are not wanting to fight like that, but your right, never isn't the right word. |
| If we hadn't nuked japan the russians would have invaded japan from the north and we would have had fifty years of north and south japan. One of the reasons we used the nukes was specifically to avoid that and to send the russians a message not to get froggy once the war with germany and japan ended. It worked about as well as it could have - hence the era of proxy wars. |