[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The English language (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 10/17/2014 9:57:29 PM EDT
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Sitting here listening to my first grader practice his reading, I realized................the English language is fucked up!
Sometimes A sounds like A, sometimes it sounds like AHHHH. Sometimes the E is silent, sometimes not. The I has two different sounds depending on the word. There is much, much more. Very difficult to a young kid just beginning to learn to read. The worst part is there is no explination as to why. Screwed up language we have here. |
One of my CSB memories from kindergarten was when "time" was written on the board (I don't remember in what context.) I never said anything, but for a while I was like, WTF, they either spelled my name wrong (Tim) or there is a new word that I haven't heard of (when I pronounced it to myself, it was tim-eh, like off of south park.) Only later did I realize that when you put an 'E' on to the end of a word, it made a long vowel sound. 
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One of my CSB memories from kindergarten was when "time" was written on the board (I don't remember in what context.) I never said anything, but for a while I was like, WTF, they either spelled my name wrong (Tim) or there is a new word that I haven't heard of (when I pronounced it to myself, it was tim-eh, like off of south park.) Only later did I realize that when you put an 'E' on to the end of a word, it made a long vowel sound. I remember in fist grade I had to stay in for recess to practice spelling, island was of the few words that kept me in. I missed an epic fight after my friend pushed a bully off the jungle gym. 
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Try teaching phonics and phonemic awareness to children that were taught by people with heavy southern accents. What sound does a 'b' make? They reply with BAAAAAA. Lots of "thays," "dems," "I done come home in I go to the store".
 Yeah, like I'm going to get these kids to pass 3rd grade Standard Assessments. |
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I remember in fist grade I had to stay in for recess to practice spelling, island was of the few words that kept me in. I missed an epic fight after my friend pushed a bully off the jungle gym. Quoted:
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One of my CSB memories from kindergarten was when "time" was written on the board (I don't remember in what context.) I never said anything, but for a while I was like, WTF, they either spelled my name wrong (Tim) or there is a new word that I haven't heard of (when I pronounced it to myself, it was tim-eh, like off of south park.) Only later did I realize that when you put an 'E' on to the end of a word, it made a long vowel sound. I remember in fist grade I had to stay in for recess to practice spelling, island was of the few words that kept me in. I missed an epic fight after my friend pushed a bully off the jungle gym. I must have missed fist grade |
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Sitting here listening to my first grader practice his reading, I realized................the English language is fucked up! Sometimes A sounds like A, sometimes it sounds like AHHHH. Sometimes the E is silent, sometimes not. The I has two different sounds depending on the word. There is much, much more. Very difficult to a young kid just beginning to learn to read. The worst part is there is no explination as to why. Screwed up language we have here. Letters aka graphemes are not the same as sounds that have meaning aka morphemes. I have now communicated 70% of my knowledge of linguistics! |
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Was going to post this. Quoted:
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Ratio and Patio. 
It's seriously the hardest language to learn. CAT5 when Russian is a CAT3 and Arabic and Chinese are CAT4. Was going to post this. Is that some kind of difficulty rating? Mechanically speaking I thought Chinese was really easy - no articles or adverbs to get straight. Just get verb placement down along with your tones and you can speak it well. |
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Is that some kind of difficulty rating? Mechanically speaking I thought Chinese was really easy - no articles or adverbs to get straight. Just get verb placement down along with your tones and you can speak it well. Quoted:
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Ratio and Patio.
It's seriously the hardest language to learn. CAT5 when Russian is a CAT3 and Arabic and Chinese are CAT4. Was going to post this. Is that some kind of difficulty rating? Mechanically speaking I thought Chinese was really easy - no articles or adverbs to get straight. Just get verb placement down along with your tones and you can speak it well. The Military language institutes classify it from CAT1 to CAT5. We're the only CAT5. French, Spanish and most of the Romantic languages are CAT2. Russian was downgraded from CAT4 to CAT3 which made the course length drop from 1.5 years to 1. French is a 6 month course. |
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Sitting here listening to my first grader practice his reading, I realized................the English language is fucked up! Sometimes A sounds like A, sometimes it sounds like AHHHH. Sometimes the E is silent, sometimes not. The I has two different sounds depending on the word. There is much, much more. Very difficult to a young kid just beginning to learn to read. The worst part is there is no explination as to why. Screwed up language we have here. What other languages have you tried learning? Ours is actually pretty simple in some ways. |
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Is that some kind of difficulty rating? Mechanically speaking I thought Chinese was really easy - no articles or adverbs to get straight. Just get verb placement down along with your tones and you can speak it well. Quoted:
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Ratio and Patio.
It's seriously the hardest language to learn. CAT5 when Russian is a CAT3 and Arabic and Chinese are CAT4. Was going to post this. Is that some kind of difficulty rating? Mechanically speaking I thought Chinese was really easy - no articles or adverbs to get straight. Just get verb placement down along with your tones and you can speak it well. It's a difficulty rating assigned by the military to the various languages its linguists learn. The easiest languages, like Spanish, are CAT1. The higher the #, the more difficult the language is considered to be. The reasons for why an individual language is classified as it is may be different from language to language, but those are the general classifications. For instance, Arabic has sentence structure that is fairly similar to Spanish, but has a completely different alphabet, sound, and conjugation style. Chinese has simple grammar, but is tonal (which can be difficult for non-native speakers to pick up on), and the written form is wildly different from our own. And English has multiple sounds for many of its letters, grammatical rules that are selectively applied, spelling rules that are selectively applied (i before e, except after c. Weird), instances where letters are used to modify the sound of other letters but are themselves not pronounced, bizarre sentence structure, etc ad nauseum. English is a nightmare to learn, and I applaud any non-native speaker that attains fluency. |
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What other languages have you tried learning? Ours is actually pretty simple in some ways. Quoted:
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Sitting here listening to my first grader practice his reading, I realized................the English language is fucked up! Sometimes A sounds like A, sometimes it sounds like AHHHH. Sometimes the E is silent, sometimes not. The I has two different sounds depending on the word. There is much, much more. Very difficult to a young kid just beginning to learn to read. The worst part is there is no explination as to why. Screwed up language we have here. What other languages have you tried learning? Ours is actually pretty simple in some ways. Spanish and German. No, the English language is not simple in any way. |
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I can recall when I was learning to read, first grade or so, the teacher showed the class a flash card with the word 'KNEW' on it. I shouted out 'CANOE' with great enthusiam. 
English is a messed up language. Exactly. My son did something similar tonight while reading the word "know". |
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There are two problems really. The first is how many 'imported' words we have that operate by a different set of rules than the rest of the language and the second is when English was first being written there were no standards of how a sound should be written. Take the word Phone. WTF is the deal with PH making the F sound? I'ts because it is an imported Greek word. When we imported it, why we didn't re-write it at fone is unknown (after all, when the latin languages imported phone and it's kin, those words are written with an f not a ph). Of course the myriad of different rules of why a sound should be written with one set of characters for word A vs a different set of characters for word B is too deeply ingrained to be fixed at this point.
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English is a bastardized mess. For example, the way we form the negative makes absolutely no sense.
I walk to the store, negative becomes I do not walk to the store, needing the addition of auxiliary verb do. Past tense of same sentence, I walked to the store, negative becomes I did not walk to the store, tense change accomplished through the auxiliary verb in the past with the primary verb remaining present tense. 
How that came about, I have no clue. Most romance languages (French is an exception) simply add some variation of no. |
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English is easy to learn for people who speak a Germanic language. And vice versa. The only problem is the relative lack of use another germanic language has in daily life here. Just by frequency of use our folks are better off learning spanish. Mandarin could be pretty profitable too though. |
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And vice versa. The only problem is the relative lack of use another germanic language has in daily life here. Just by frequency of use our folks are better off learning spanish. Mandarin could be pretty profitable too though. Quoted:
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English is easy to learn for people who speak a Germanic language. And vice versa. The only problem is the relative lack of use another germanic language has in daily life here. Just by frequency of use our folks are better off learning spanish. Mandarin could be pretty profitable too though. Meh! Took German in high school..... My youngest boy is taking french I this year and will take French II next. Ain't got time for that other jibber jabber.
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Meh! Took German in high school..... My youngest boy is taking french I this year and will take French II next. Ain't got time for that other jibber jabber. Quoted:
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English is easy to learn for people who speak a Germanic language. And vice versa. The only problem is the relative lack of use another germanic language has in daily life here. Just by frequency of use our folks are better off learning spanish. Mandarin could be pretty profitable too though. Meh! Took German in high school..... My youngest boy is taking french I this year and will take French II next. Ain't got time for that other jibber jabber. I took German, my wife took French. Both have been largely useless other than the intellectual exercise since. Woulda got some use out of Spanish. |
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I took German, my wife took French. Both have been largely useless other than the intellectual exercise since. Woulda got some use out of Spanish. Quoted:
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English is easy to learn for people who speak a Germanic language. And vice versa. The only problem is the relative lack of use another germanic language has in daily life here. Just by frequency of use our folks are better off learning spanish. Mandarin could be pretty profitable too though. Meh! Took German in high school..... My youngest boy is taking french I this year and will take French II next. Ain't got time for that other jibber jabber. I took German, my wife took French. Both have been largely useless other than the intellectual exercise since. Woulda got some use out of Spanish. Being in Florida you'd think we would've jump on Spanish... or it would be mandatory in the schools.... In the area of Florida I'm in.... I don't even hear it spoken. Not a lot of Spanish speaking folks like in south Florida. Up here folks speak Redneck'ese!
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This is why etymology is so vital when teaching English. By understanding the origins of our words (Scandinavian vs. Roman vs. French, etc.) we can better gauge how to pronounce words. We also don't teach the rules as well as we used to...I had to learn other languages to understand our rules better.
I suggest a book that focuses on etymology or history of the English language/Indo-European languages. Something that better explains how we got here, because the English language was obligated to take in a lot of other words, considering how many other countries it conquered/conquered it. |
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The worst part is there is no explination as to why. My Linguist wife can tell you exactly why English is so fucked up. She asks if you have a few semesters to spare for the explanation. The nutshell version of why is that what do you expect when you take Germanic grunting and Latin and shove them together at sword point. It's never a peaceful thing when Latins and Germans get together. Have you ever wondered by you can choose to endeavor to accomplish your appointed labors or you could just do your fucking job? It's because Germans grunt and get to it because it's fucking cold out there and Mediterraneans don't see the point in rushing and ruining another beautiful sunny day. |
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And vice versa. […] Quoted:
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English is easy to learn for people who speak a Germanic language. And vice versa. […] Yeah, but you guys seems to have a lot of mental barriers regarding the pronunciation of some letters in Swedish, mainly Å, Ä and Ö, even though you are fully capable to say it as you use the same vocalisation in your own language but sure combinations of different letters when you use them. To get an English speaker to say these letters correctly you nearly always need to break up an English word or they just will not get it, even if they have used the same pronunciation millions of times while speaking English. |
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My Linguist wife can tell you exactly why English is so fucked up. She asks if you have a few semesters to spare for the explanation. The nutshell version of why is that what do you expect when you take Germanic grunting and Latin and shove them together at sword point. It's never a peaceful thing when Latins and Germans get together. Have you ever wondered by you can choose to endeavor to accomplish your appointed labors or you could just do your fucking job? It's because Germans grunt and get to it because it's fucking cold out there and Mediterraneans don't see the point in rushing and ruining another beautiful sunny day. Quoted:
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The worst part is there is no explination as to why. My Linguist wife can tell you exactly why English is so fucked up. She asks if you have a few semesters to spare for the explanation. The nutshell version of why is that what do you expect when you take Germanic grunting and Latin and shove them together at sword point. It's never a peaceful thing when Latins and Germans get together. Have you ever wondered by you can choose to endeavor to accomplish your appointed labors or you could just do your fucking job? It's because Germans grunt and get to it because it's fucking cold out there and Mediterraneans don't see the point in rushing and ruining another beautiful sunny day. Let's not forget the Celtic natives and some Vikings thrown in to boot. |
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English language is for faggots.... 
Just ask uncle gene5!  If you can pronounce correctly every word in this poem, you will be speaking English better than 90% of the native English speakers in the world. After trying the verses, a Frenchman said he’d prefer six months of hard labour to reading six lines aloud. Dearest creature in creation, Study English pronunciation. I will teach you in my verse Sounds like corpse, corps, horse, and worse. I will keep you, Suzy, busy, Make your head with heat grow dizzy. Tear in eye, your dress will tear. So shall I! Oh hear my prayer. Just compare heart, beard, and heard, Dies and diet, lord and word, Sword and sward, retain and Britain. (Mind the latter, how it’s written.) Now I surely will not plague you With such words as plaque and ague. But be careful how you speak: Say break and steak, but bleak and streak; Cloven, oven, how and low, Script, receipt, show, poem, and toe. Hear me say, devoid of trickery, Daughter, laughter, and Terpsichore, Typhoid, measles, topsails, aisles, Exiles, similes, and reviles; Scholar, vicar, and cigar, Solar, mica, war and far; One, anemone, Balmoral, Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel; Gertrude, German, wind and mind, Scene, Melpomene, mankind. Billet does not rhyme with ballet, Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet. Blood and flood are not like food, Nor is mould like should and would. Viscous, viscount, load and broad, Toward, to forward, to reward. And your pronunciation’s OK When you correctly say croquet, Rounded, wounded, grieve and sieve, Friend and fiend, alive and live. Ivy, privy, famous; clamour And enamour rhyme with hammer. River, rival, tomb, bomb, comb, Doll and roll and some and home. Stranger does not rhyme with anger, Neither does devour with clangour. Souls but foul, haunt but aunt, Font, front, wont, want, grand, and grant, Shoes, goes, does. Now first say finger, And then singer, ginger, linger, Real, zeal, mauve, gauze, gouge and gauge, Marriage, foliage, mirage, and age. Query does not rhyme with very, Nor does fury sound like bury. Dost, lost, post and doth, cloth, loth. Job, nob, bosom, transom, oath. Though the differences seem little, We say actual but victual. Refer does not rhyme with deafer. Fe0ffer does, and zephyr, heifer. Mint, pint, senate and sedate; Dull, bull, and George ate late. Scenic, Arabic, Pacific, Science, conscience, scientific. Liberty, library, heave and heaven, Rachel, ache, moustache, eleven. We say hallowed, but allowed, People, leopard, towed, but vowed. Mark the differences, moreover, Between mover, cover, clover; Leeches, breeches, wise, precise, Chalice, but police and lice; Camel, constable, unstable, Principle, disciple, label. Petal, panel, and canal, Wait, surprise, plait, promise, pal. Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, chair, Senator, spectator, mayor. Tour, but our and succour, four. Gas, alas, and Arkansas. Sea, idea, Korea, area, Psalm, Maria, but malaria. Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean. Doctrine, turpentine, marine. Compare alien with Italian, Dandelion and battalion. Sally with ally, yea, ye, Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, and key. Say aver, but ever, fever, Neither, leisure, skein, deceiver. Heron, granary, canary. Crevice and device and aerie. Face, but preface, not efface. Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass. Large, but target, gin, give, verging, Ought, out, joust and scour, scourging. Ear, but earn and wear and tear Do not rhyme with here but ere. Seven is right, but so is even, Hyphen, roughen, nephew Stephen, Monkey, donkey, Turk and jerk, Ask, grasp, wasp, and cork and work. Pronunciation (think of Psyche!) Is a paling stout and spikey? Won’t it make you lose your wits, Writing groats and saying grits? It’s a dark abyss or tunnel: Strewn with stones, stowed, solace, gunwale, Islington and Isle of Wight, Housewife, verdict and indict. Finally, which rhymes with enough, Though, through, plough, or dough, or cough? Hiccough has the sound of cup. My advice is to give up!!! English Pronunciation by G. Nolst Trenité TRG |
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Being in Florida you'd think we would've jump on Spanish... or it would be mandatory in the schools.... In the area of Florida I'm in.... I don't even hear it spoken. Not a lot of Spanish speaking folks like in south Florida. Up here folks speak Redneck'ese! Quoted:
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English is easy to learn for people who speak a Germanic language. And vice versa. The only problem is the relative lack of use another germanic language has in daily life here. Just by frequency of use our folks are better off learning spanish. Mandarin could be pretty profitable too though. Meh! Took German in high school..... My youngest boy is taking french I this year and will take French II next. Ain't got time for that other jibber jabber. I took German, my wife took French. Both have been largely useless other than the intellectual exercise since. Woulda got some use out of Spanish. Being in Florida you'd think we would've jump on Spanish... or it would be mandatory in the schools.... In the area of Florida I'm in.... I don't even hear it spoken. Not a lot of Spanish speaking folks like in south Florida. Up here folks speak Redneck'ese! My kids' charter school started Spanish in kindergarten. |
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No, it's not. The Feminine and Masculine still gives them trouble. English might be Germanic in its sentence structure, but, beyond that ... no. TRG Quoted:
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English is easy to learn for people who speak a Germanic language. No, it's not. The Feminine and Masculine still gives them trouble. English might be Germanic in its sentence structure, but, beyond that ... no. TRG Well.. at least you have rules for your grammar. Swedish doesn't in all places, you just got to "feel it". Nobody has been able to fully pinpoint any rules for "en" and "ett" for example. It is all in your guts and we will hear right away if you mess up. |
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No, it's not. The Feminine and Masculine still gives them trouble. English might be Germanic in its sentence structure, but, beyond that ... no. TRG Quoted:
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English is easy to learn for people who speak a Germanic language. No, it's not. The Feminine and Masculine still gives them trouble. English might be Germanic in its sentence structure, but, beyond that ... no. TRG I disagree. |
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Yeah, but you guys seems to have a lot of mental barriers regarding the pronunciation of some letters in Swedish, mainly Å, Ä and Ö, even though you are fully capable to say it as you use the same vocalisation in your own language but sure combinations of different letters when you use them. To get an English speaker to say these letters correctly you nearly always need to break up an English word or they just will not get it, even if they have used the same pronunciation millions of times while speaking English. Quoted:
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English is easy to learn for people who speak a Germanic language. And vice versa. […] Yeah, but you guys seems to have a lot of mental barriers regarding the pronunciation of some letters in Swedish, mainly Å, Ä and Ö, even though you are fully capable to say it as you use the same vocalisation in your own language but sure combinations of different letters when you use them. To get an English speaker to say these letters correctly you nearly always need to break up an English word or they just will not get it, even if they have used the same pronunciation millions of times while speaking English. Those aren't letters here, those are indications of a minor problem in the laser printing process.
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