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Posted: 4/1/2014 6:35:00 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We live in an era where people sell jigs that let you convert hunks of aluminum into functioning firearms in an hour using common power tools. That completely arbitrary and retarded standard isn't going to save you when it comes to a few more millimeters of chopping, if someone decides to fuck you. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It's legal. Sear hole would be a no no. No it isn't. The ATF has ruled that anything easily converted is NFA. Their idea of easily converted is 8 hours of shop time that they have used to assemble parts kits and call them machine guns. If all you have to do is drill one hole you will lose in court if the ATF ever pushes the issue. We live in an era where people sell jigs that let you convert hunks of aluminum into functioning firearms in an hour using common power tools. That completely arbitrary and retarded standard isn't going to save you when it comes to a few more millimeters of chopping, if someone decides to fuck you. 8 Hours in a machine shop means we are ALL in possession of unregistered NFA items. 
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Posted: 4/1/2014 6:51:27 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What are you suggesting? I am not asking about how one would modify an existing receiver. I am asking whether or not it would be a concern if you took an unfinished block of aluminum and milled it into a lower with M16 dimensions but omitted the sear hole. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Might be easier to purchase a Colt with the auto sear block that they put out for a while. I would imagine you could mill it out(as long as you keep the holes plugged. Then again, I have no idea what kind of metal those plugs were made of.... What are you suggesting? I am not asking about how one would modify an existing receiver. I am asking whether or not it would be a concern if you took an unfinished block of aluminum and milled it into a lower with M16 dimensions but omitted the sear hole. Here's my opinion; Even if finished lowers are sold in the config in question, the fact that you milled it yourself to M16 dimensions but omitted the sear hole suggests constructive intent of a MG, especially true if you are in possession of any M16 FCG parts or they find any information on your computer that describes the process milling an AR15 receiver into a M16 receiver. The odds of an LEO checking your rifle and noticing the M16 milling dimensions are nil. But where they usually get people for things like this is you are on the LEO's radar for some other reason. They come into your home and find the gun in question and other guns and call the BATF to check out the guns, and then they add a constructive intent of a MG charge onto all the other charges. Bottom-line: I would not mill the M16 dimensions but omitting the sear hole config myself as you have nothing to gain from doing it. |
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Posted: 4/1/2014 7:24:18 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Purpose/desire is irrelevant. As long as there is no sear hole, and you don't possess the M16 FCG parts, I don't see what the big deal is. Granted, there are instances where the ATF has screwed people on stupid technicalities. But what people are missing here is the guy in Wisconsin and in the case of the shoe lace thing, both were instances of people actively attempting to make their gun go full auto. I'm trying to figure out if INTERNAL DIMENSIONS are enough to get you screwed. No sear hole. No sear in your possession. No FCG parts in your possession. Just an AR15 trigger and selector. Again, based on the commercially available lowers I've found, that would suggest that such a configuration is legal. Even if just a few manufacturers are making them that way, there has to be a ton of lowers out there that are milled this way. I wholeheartedly agree that the ATF is an exceptionally fucked up organization, but my purpose in asking this question is to find a little clarity in a gray area that I've found. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Since no one else asked the damn question, I guess I will. For what purpurse due you want to have M16 dimensions in your lower receiver? You have already said, you have no plans to put a sear in it, what other reason could you have? ATF, might just decide to Fuck you on intent alone. Purpose/desire is irrelevant. As long as there is no sear hole, and you don't possess the M16 FCG parts, I don't see what the big deal is. Granted, there are instances where the ATF has screwed people on stupid technicalities. But what people are missing here is the guy in Wisconsin and in the case of the shoe lace thing, both were instances of people actively attempting to make their gun go full auto. I'm trying to figure out if INTERNAL DIMENSIONS are enough to get you screwed. No sear hole. No sear in your possession. No FCG parts in your possession. Just an AR15 trigger and selector. Again, based on the commercially available lowers I've found, that would suggest that such a configuration is legal. Even if just a few manufacturers are making them that way, there has to be a ton of lowers out there that are milled this way. I wholeheartedly agree that the ATF is an exceptionally fucked up organization, but my purpose in asking this question is to find a little clarity in a gray area that I've found. I was under the impression that the guy in Wisconsin had an old Olympic rifle that came from the factory with some M16 FCG parts installed. It's been quite some time since I have read the story though. |
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Posted: 4/1/2014 7:41:42 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was under the impression that the guy in Wisconsin had an old Olympic rifle that came from the factory with some M16 FCG parts installed. It's been quite some time since I have read the story though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Since no one else asked the damn question, I guess I will. For what purpurse due you want to have M16 dimensions in your lower receiver? You have already said, you have no plans to put a sear in it, what other reason could you have? ATF, might just decide to Fuck you on intent alone. Purpose/desire is irrelevant. As long as there is no sear hole, and you don't possess the M16 FCG parts, I don't see what the big deal is. Granted, there are instances where the ATF has screwed people on stupid technicalities. But what people are missing here is the guy in Wisconsin and in the case of the shoe lace thing, both were instances of people actively attempting to make their gun go full auto. I'm trying to figure out if INTERNAL DIMENSIONS are enough to get you screwed. No sear hole. No sear in your possession. No FCG parts in your possession. Just an AR15 trigger and selector. Again, based on the commercially available lowers I've found, that would suggest that such a configuration is legal. Even if just a few manufacturers are making them that way, there has to be a ton of lowers out there that are milled this way. I wholeheartedly agree that the ATF is an exceptionally fucked up organization, but my purpose in asking this question is to find a little clarity in a gray area that I've found. I was under the impression that the guy in Wisconsin had an old Olympic rifle that came from the factory with some M16 FCG parts installed. It's been quite some time since I have read the story though. You know what... you may be right. It's been a while since I read that one too. I seem to remember he was experimenting with off the shelf ammo to make it go FA though... |
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Posted: 4/1/2014 8:10:11 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
8 Hours in a machine shop means we are ALL in possession of unregistered NFA items. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It's legal. Sear hole would be a no no. No it isn't. The ATF has ruled that anything easily converted is NFA. Their idea of easily converted is 8 hours of shop time that they have used to assemble parts kits and call them machine guns. If all you have to do is drill one hole you will lose in court if the ATF ever pushes the issue. We live in an era where people sell jigs that let you convert hunks of aluminum into functioning firearms in an hour using common power tools. That completely arbitrary and retarded standard isn't going to save you when it comes to a few more millimeters of chopping, if someone decides to fuck you. 8 Hours in a machine shop means we are ALL in possession of unregistered NFA items. |
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Posted: 4/1/2014 8:53:44 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here's my opinion; Even if finished lowers are sold in the config in question, the fact that you milled it yourself to M16 dimensions but omitted the sear hole suggests constructive intent of a MG, especially true if you are in possession of any M16 FCG parts or they find any information on your computer that describes the process milling an AR15 receiver into a M16 receiver. The odds of an LEO checking your rifle and noticing the M16 milling dimensions are nil. But where they usually get people for things like this is you are on the LEO's radar for some other reason. They come into your home and find the gun in question and other guns and call the BATF to check out the guns, and then they add a constructive intent of a MG charge onto all the other charges. Bottom-line: I would not mill the M16 dimensions but omitting the sear hole config myself as you have nothing to gain from doing it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Might be easier to purchase a Colt with the auto sear block that they put out for a while. I would imagine you could mill it out(as long as you keep the holes plugged. Then again, I have no idea what kind of metal those plugs were made of.... What are you suggesting? I am not asking about how one would modify an existing receiver. I am asking whether or not it would be a concern if you took an unfinished block of aluminum and milled it into a lower with M16 dimensions but omitted the sear hole. Here's my opinion; Even if finished lowers are sold in the config in question, the fact that you milled it yourself to M16 dimensions but omitted the sear hole suggests constructive intent of a MG, especially true if you are in possession of any M16 FCG parts or they find any information on your computer that describes the process milling an AR15 receiver into a M16 receiver. The odds of an LEO checking your rifle and noticing the M16 milling dimensions are nil. But where they usually get people for things like this is you are on the LEO's radar for some other reason. They come into your home and find the gun in question and other guns and call the BATF to check out the guns, and then they add a constructive intent of a MG charge onto all the other charges. Bottom-line: I would not mill the M16 dimensions but omitting the sear hole config myself as you have nothing to gain from doing it. They will say that you intended to drill the sear hole and make an MG but they busted you before you did, and prevent you from going on a mass murder rampage. OP, I don't know why you want to find out if something is legal if you don't want to do it, but sometimes its better to let sleeping dogs lie. |
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Posted: 4/1/2014 8:59:15 AM EDT
[#7]
I know that some here have already commented saying that the ATF's opinion is worthless. But how useful would a determination letter be if they gave you the green light and then tried to bust you later on?
I'll say it again, if all I have is a receiver, with AR15 internal parts, what do the internal dimensions matter? |
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Posted: 4/1/2014 9:07:06 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know that some here have already commented saying that the ATF's opinion is worthless. But how useful would a determination letter be if they gave you the green light and then tried to bust you later on? I'll say it again, if all I have is a receiver, with AR15 internal parts, what do the internal dimensions matter? What does it matter if you have a machine gun and never hurt anybody with it? You're still gonna take a walk. |
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Posted: 4/1/2014 9:35:53 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What does it matter if you have a machine gun and never hurt anybody with it? You're still gonna take a walk. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I know that some here have already commented saying that the ATF's opinion is worthless. But how useful would a determination letter be if they gave you the green light and then tried to bust you later on? I'll say it again, if all I have is a receiver, with AR15 internal parts, what do the internal dimensions matter? What does it matter if you have a machine gun and never hurt anybody with it? You're still gonna take a walk. Nobody is talking about having illegal machine guns. At the heart of this issue is the whole "constructive possession/readily convertible" question. Does an AR15 lower, milled to M16 internal dimensions WITHOUT the sear hole, and an AR15 trigger, disconnector, hammer, and selector installed in it equal constructive possession/readily convertible? This has now become a legitimate concern now that I've discovered the Colt, BCI, Plum Crazy, and Armscorp lowers that fit that EXACT description. I am not talking about modifying an existing lower either. I'm talking about either: A) What does it mean for those who currently have an old Colt SP1, BCI lower, Armscorp lower, etc? B) What does it mean for someone if they built their own lower to that specification? |
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Posted: 4/1/2014 10:11:11 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nobody is talking about having illegal machine guns. At the heart of this issue is the whole "constructive possession/readily convertible" question. Does an AR15 lower, milled to M16 internal dimensions WITHOUT the sear hole, and an AR15 trigger, disconnector, hammer, and selector installed in it equal constructive possession/readily convertible? This has now become a legitimate concern now that I've discovered the Colt, BCI, Plum Crazy, and Armscorp lowers that fit that EXACT description. I am not talking about modifying an existing lower either. I'm talking about either: A) What does it mean for those who currently have an old Colt SP1, BCI lower, Armscorp lower, etc? B) What does it mean for someone if they built their own lower to that specification? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I know that some here have already commented saying that the ATF's opinion is worthless. But how useful would a determination letter be if they gave you the green light and then tried to bust you later on? I'll say it again, if all I have is a receiver, with AR15 internal parts, what do the internal dimensions matter? What does it matter if you have a machine gun and never hurt anybody with it? You're still gonna take a walk. Nobody is talking about having illegal machine guns. At the heart of this issue is the whole "constructive possession/readily convertible" question. Does an AR15 lower, milled to M16 internal dimensions WITHOUT the sear hole, and an AR15 trigger, disconnector, hammer, and selector installed in it equal constructive possession/readily convertible? This has now become a legitimate concern now that I've discovered the Colt, BCI, Plum Crazy, and Armscorp lowers that fit that EXACT description. I am not talking about modifying an existing lower either. I'm talking about either: A) What does it mean for those who currently have an old Colt SP1, BCI lower, Armscorp lower, etc? B) What does it mean for someone if they built their own lower to that specification? I'm sure you realize the level of incompetence and/or corruption you're dealing with in our legal system? Bottom-line: if you are caught with the above mentioned lower and you're squeaky clean with everything else in your life, and they don't find any other parts which could in any way be construed to be used to convert the gun to full-auto, and you have no information in your home or on your computer that might indicate you were researching how to convert it to full-auto, and there is no other issues like SBR uppers or barrels with unregistered lowers, then there would likely be no charges filed. With that said, I would be much more concerned with being charged if I milled a 80% lower into M16 dimensions (minus the auto-sear pin holes). How would you explain it to the BATF your reason for doing that on a lower you milled yourself? If you buy a factory made lower that's easy to explain, but there is no plausible explanation that you could come up with as to why you milled it that way yourself. BTW...did you read the story about the guy in DC that was found guilty of owning unregistered ammo (a felony) because he had a few musket balls? These are the types of morons and corrupt to the core motherfuckers that would be deciding whether to charge you for the stuff you're asking about. |
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Posted: 4/1/2014 10:23:09 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nobody is talking about having illegal machine guns. At the heart of this issue is the whole "constructive possession/readily convertible" question. Does an AR15 lower, milled to M16 internal dimensions WITHOUT the sear hole, and an AR15 trigger, disconnector, hammer, and selector installed in it equal constructive possession/readily convertible? This has now become a legitimate concern now that I've discovered the Colt, BCI, Plum Crazy, and Armscorp lowers that fit that EXACT description. I am not talking about modifying an existing lower either. I'm talking about either: A) What does it mean for those who currently have an old Colt SP1, BCI lower, Armscorp lower, etc? B) What does it mean for someone if they built their own lower to that specification? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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I know that some here have already commented saying that the ATF's opinion is worthless. But how useful would a determination letter be if they gave you the green light and then tried to bust you later on? I'll say it again, if all I have is a receiver, with AR15 internal parts, what do the internal dimensions matter? What does it matter if you have a machine gun and never hurt anybody with it? You're still gonna take a walk. Nobody is talking about having illegal machine guns. At the heart of this issue is the whole "constructive possession/readily convertible" question. Does an AR15 lower, milled to M16 internal dimensions WITHOUT the sear hole, and an AR15 trigger, disconnector, hammer, and selector installed in it equal constructive possession/readily convertible? This has now become a legitimate concern now that I've discovered the Colt, BCI, Plum Crazy, and Armscorp lowers that fit that EXACT description. I am not talking about modifying an existing lower either. I'm talking about either: A) What does it mean for those who currently have an old Colt SP1, BCI lower, Armscorp lower, etc? B) What does it mean for someone if they built their own lower to that specification? You are creating an issue that does not exist....... The internal specification of the lower does not matter......it's the pin hole for the auto sear......period Oh......Ordnance Research lowers were also manufactured to that specification.... What is the serial# range of the Colt you pictured? I owned a 1964 Gun (3 digit Ser# ) that wasn't internally machined like the one you pictured......can't get much earlier than that! Eta: A member posted pics of his '64 gun here......take a look at the lower..... http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/601504_1964_production_AR15_SP1_3_digit_ser__Like_new__unfired.html |
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Posted: 4/1/2014 10:32:37 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ...I would be much more concerned with being charged if I milled a 80% lower into M16 dimensions (minus the auto-sear pin holes). How would you explain it to the BATF your reason for doing that on a lower you milled yourself?... "I followed a lower receiver blueprint that I downloaded from a popular Web site for AR-15 enthusiasts." |
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Posted: 4/1/2014 10:39:51 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are creating an issue that does not exist....... The internal specification of the lower does not matter......it's the pin hole for the auto sear......period Oh......Ordnance Research lowers were also manufactured to that specification.... What is the serial# range of the Colt you pictured? I owned a 1964 Gun (3 digit Ser# ) that wasn't internally machined like the one you pictured......can't get much earlier than that! Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are creating an issue that does not exist....... The internal specification of the lower does not matter......it's the pin hole for the auto sear......period Oh......Ordnance Research lowers were also manufactured to that specification.... What is the serial# range of the Colt you pictured? I owned a 1964 Gun (3 digit Ser# ) that wasn't internally machined like the one you pictured......can't get much earlier than that! I could have been mistaken about the SP1 lower. If you google "colt sp1 lower m16 internal" it's the first image that comes up. It leads to this archived thread: Still an AR or Re-Classified as (NFA) Class III SP1s were a Colt introduction, and have always had the SP1-spec profile, as far as I know. It's possible that really, really, really early ones had the same profile as the full auto Model 01/Model 02 AR15s with out the sear hole, but I've never seen one. I've seen serials as early as the low hundreds (1964 production) without seeing any with full auto internal dimensions, but the Armalite (pre-Colt) AR-15 had been around for almost half a decade before those. Sorry if the SP1 claim isn't accurate, I was up pretty late when I saw that thread. Still, the BCI, Plum Crazy, Armscorp, and now apparently Ordnance Research lowers come that way. I know that a lot of people here fear the "constructive possession/readily convertible" specter, but if they want to fuck with you that bad, they'll just say a regular AR15 lower and a hand drill puts you in constructive possession. |
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Posted: 4/1/2014 10:43:58 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"I followed a lower receiver blueprint that I downloaded from a popular Web site for AR-15 enthusiasts." Quote HistoryQuoted:
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...I would be much more concerned with being charged if I milled a 80% lower into M16 dimensions (minus the auto-sear pin holes). How would you explain it to the BATF your reason for doing that on a lower you milled yourself?... "I followed a lower receiver blueprint that I downloaded from a popular Web site for AR-15 enthusiasts." Agent: "Point us to that link please. BTW...we searched AR15.com and found numerous posts by you where you asked about the legality of milling an AR15 to M16 specs minus the auto-sear holes. Why would you want to mill your lower to M16 specs, where it only takes a couple more minutes to drill two holes and convert this gun into an illegal machine gun? The facts are you planned to convert this gun into a machinegun, didn't you?!?" |
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Posted: 4/1/2014 10:45:44 AM EDT
[#15]
Fuck BATFE and FBHO.
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Posted: 4/1/2014 10:46:19 AM EDT
[#16]
Its for lighter weight, a legitimate purpose
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Posted: 4/1/2014 11:34:30 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm sure you realize the level of incompetence and/or corruption you're dealing with in our legal system? Bottom-line: if you are caught with the above mentioned lower and you're squeaky clean with everything else in your life, and they don't find any other parts which could in any way be construed to be used to convert the gun to full-auto, and you have no information in your home or on your computer that might indicate you were researching how to convert it to full-auto, and there is no other issues like SBR uppers or barrels with unregistered lowers, then there would likely be no charges filed. With that said, I would be much more concerned with being charged if I milled a 80% lower into M16 dimensions (minus the auto-sear pin holes). How would you explain it to the BATF your reason for doing that on a lower you milled yourself? If you buy a factory made lower that's easy to explain, but there is no plausible explanation that you could come up with as to why you milled it that way yourself. BTW...did you read the story about the guy in DC that was found guilty of owning unregistered ammo (a felony) because he had a few musket balls? These are the types of morons and corrupt to the core motherfuckers that would be deciding whether to charge you for the stuff you're asking about. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm sure you realize the level of incompetence and/or corruption you're dealing with in our legal system? Bottom-line: if you are caught with the above mentioned lower and you're squeaky clean with everything else in your life, and they don't find any other parts which could in any way be construed to be used to convert the gun to full-auto, and you have no information in your home or on your computer that might indicate you were researching how to convert it to full-auto, and there is no other issues like SBR uppers or barrels with unregistered lowers, then there would likely be no charges filed. With that said, I would be much more concerned with being charged if I milled a 80% lower into M16 dimensions (minus the auto-sear pin holes). How would you explain it to the BATF your reason for doing that on a lower you milled yourself? If you buy a factory made lower that's easy to explain, but there is no plausible explanation that you could come up with as to why you milled it that way yourself. BTW...did you read the story about the guy in DC that was found guilty of owning unregistered ammo (a felony) because he had a few musket balls? These are the types of morons and corrupt to the core motherfuckers that would be deciding whether to charge you for the stuff you're asking about. Quoted:
Agent: "Point us to that link please. BTW...we searched AR15.com and found numerous posts by you where you asked about the legality of milling an AR15 to M16 specs minus the auto-sear holes. Why would you want to mill your lower to M16 specs, where it only takes a couple more minutes to drill two holes and convert this gun into an illegal machine gun? The facts are you planned to convert this gun into a machinegun, didn't you?!?" I am squeaky clean, that's why I'm asking around about this. I may not agree with everything our government does, but I don't want to invite the shit storm that would surely materialize if they wanted to make an example out of little old me. My point in bringing this up, and possibly the idea of getting a determination letter, is because the more you paint them into a corner with explicit definitions and use their words against them, the less power they have to use that gray area to harass and coerce people into compliance. The law is clear on what constitutes a machine gun and what does not. It's the ATF's interpretation that's fuzzy. I'm am trying to get it black and white. It may be unreasonable, but I just think it should be cut and dry. And again.... if they want to fuck with you that bad, they'll find a way and no one is safe. |
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Posted: 4/1/2014 12:29:13 PM EDT
[#18]
wow
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Posted: 4/1/2014 6:40:22 PM EDT
[#19]
Any one else think of anything new and exciting?
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Posted: 4/2/2014 3:18:29 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Any one else think of anything new and exciting? Curdled half-and-half makes a great substitute for buttermilk when you are making fried chicken. |
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Posted: 4/2/2014 3:25:27 AM EDT
[#21]
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Any one else think of anything new and exciting? Don't keep a hacksaw in suspiciously close proximity to your shotguns? 
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Posted: 4/2/2014 3:40:25 AM EDT
[#22]
Legal. My DDLES 9mm lowers are one hole away from being able to accept an auto sear.
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Posted: 4/2/2014 3:41:24 AM EDT
[#23]
No way in hell would I think about doing that
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Posted: 4/2/2014 3:54:18 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's legal. Sear hole would be a no no. This, its that simple... |
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Posted: 4/2/2014 4:00:13 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This, its that simple... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It's legal. Sear hole would be a no no. This, its that simple... Yup. |
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Posted: 4/2/2014 5:56:41 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Curdled half-and-half makes a great substitute for buttermilk when you are making fried chicken. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Any one else think of anything new and exciting? Curdled half-and-half makes a great substitute for buttermilk when you are making fried chicken. NOTED!
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Posted: 4/2/2014 6:13:53 AM EDT
[#27]
A true milspec ar15 lower is the EXACT same as a m16 lower less two holes. AKMs are the same way. Romanian SARs even have an indent where the auto sear would go.
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Posted: 4/2/2014 7:39:23 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Legal. My DDLES 9mm lowers are one hole away from being able to accept an auto sear. http://www.slickguns.com/sites/default/files/4d67105d7d2c395e7a7ac685c1f449ec.jpg http://www.vomschmidthaus.com/img/ddles_9mm/9mm_lower_07.jpg http://www.vomschmidthaus.com/img/ddles_9mm/9mm_lower_02.jpg http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7460/11222402976_7870aeb33f_z.jpg https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-vPdIzijyZ9I/UvaZjPzzboI/AAAAAAAACSs/41ChCRdnYNM/s1280/CRW_3149.jpg http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w417/Raeth1997/Bobs_DDLES_lower_with_RDIAS_2a_zps8040280d.jpg It's interesting that someone is making 9mm lowers this way... If it were a problem, you would think these manufacturer's would have been nabbed a long time ago. It's a little disheartening to see the amount of fear and misinformation being spread by the fear of the ATF 
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Posted: 4/2/2014 9:00:17 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This, its that simple... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It's legal. Sear hole would be a no no. This, its that simple... Thank you for the response... I'm seriously ignorant on the issue, and having noticed the difference, I figure I'd bring it to people's attention. |
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Posted: 4/2/2014 9:09:34 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No it isn't. The ATF has ruled that anything easily converted is NFA. Their idea of easily converted is 8 hours of shop time that they have used to assemble parts kits and call them machine guns. If all you have to do is drill one hole you will lose in court if the ATF ever pushes the issue. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It's legal. Sear hole would be a no no. No it isn't. The ATF has ruled that anything easily converted is NFA. Their idea of easily converted is 8 hours of shop time that they have used to assemble parts kits and call them machine guns. If all you have to do is drill one hole you will lose in court if the ATF ever pushes the issue. In eight hours you man manufacture a machine gun from scratch. If the ATF wants your gun to be a machine gun, they will make it a machine gun. If there is a way to turn a Mosin Nagant M91/30 into a machine gun, the ATF will be the ones to find it, do it, and charge somebody. Quoted:
The ATF about 4 weeks ago got a total smack down on the letters they hand out , The letter has always had no value . Now it has even less . Nolo I know has the court report and the judges ruling . It is a great read . Tango 7 is 100% correct . The ATF modifies parts and achieves results . The gun brought up in the Wi. case passed the first test and failed with Federal commercial ammo , due to softer primers . They added parts to a gun and made it a machine gun when none were used or provided . I have seen that first hand . Didn't the ATF also get caught taking an AR-15, drilling a hole in the lower, machining the lower to accept M-16 fire control parts, replacing the parts with M-16 fire control parts, and exchanging the semi-auto bolt carrier with a new full auto one in order to claim that somebody owned a machine gun? |
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Posted: 4/2/2014 9:27:15 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In eight hours you man manufacture a machine gun from scratch. If the ATF wants your gun to be a machine gun, they will make it a machine gun. If there is a way to turn a Mosin Nagant M91/30 into a machine gun, the ATF will be the ones to find it, do it, and charge somebody. Didn't the ATF also get caught taking an AR-15, drilling a hole in the lower, machining the lower to accept M-16 fire control parts, replacing the parts with M-16 fire control parts, and exchanging the semi-auto bolt carrier with a new full auto one in order to claim that somebody owned a machine gun? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's legal. Sear hole would be a no no. No it isn't. The ATF has ruled that anything easily converted is NFA. Their idea of easily converted is 8 hours of shop time that they have used to assemble parts kits and call them machine guns. If all you have to do is drill one hole you will lose in court if the ATF ever pushes the issue. In eight hours you man manufacture a machine gun from scratch. If the ATF wants your gun to be a machine gun, they will make it a machine gun. If there is a way to turn a Mosin Nagant M91/30 into a machine gun, the ATF will be the ones to find it, do it, and charge somebody. Quoted:
The ATF about 4 weeks ago got a total smack down on the letters they hand out , The letter has always had no value . Now it has even less . Nolo I know has the court report and the judges ruling . It is a great read . Tango 7 is 100% correct . The ATF modifies parts and achieves results . The gun brought up in the Wi. case passed the first test and failed with Federal commercial ammo , due to softer primers . They added parts to a gun and made it a machine gun when none were used or provided . I have seen that first hand . Didn't the ATF also get caught taking an AR-15, drilling a hole in the lower, machining the lower to accept M-16 fire control parts, replacing the parts with M-16 fire control parts, and exchanging the semi-auto bolt carrier with a new full auto one in order to claim that somebody owned a machine gun? I don't know about that, but it would be interesting to find out. I know they screwed around with that guy's AR in Wisconsin to make it fire full auto, but I don't know if they swapped any parts or did any machining. |
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Posted: 4/2/2014 9:35:55 AM EDT
[#32]
Now I want the drawings to show the differences
when (if) I get off my ass and do all I need to do to get the extra special permission to make my own ar lower up here I want to mill it to M16 specs, w/o the sear hole of course |
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Posted: 4/2/2014 9:57:32 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A true milspec ar15 lower is the EXACT same as a m16 lower less two holes. AKMs are the same way. Romanian SARs even have an indent where the auto sear would go. The semi auto AK and AKM receivers approved for importation and those approved for manufacturer in the US lack the slot in the right hand lower rail for the auto/safety sear. |
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Posted: 4/2/2014 10:13:03 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The semi auto AK and AKM receivers approved for importation and those approved for manufacturer in the US lack the slot in the right hand lower rail for the auto/safety sear. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
A true milspec ar15 lower is the EXACT same as a m16 lower less two holes. AKMs are the same way. Romanian SARs even have an indent where the auto sear would go. The semi auto AK and AKM receivers approved for importation and those approved for manufacturer in the US lack the slot in the right hand lower rail for the auto/safety sear. Do either of you have pics of that you can link to or post? I've handled AKs before, but I'm not very well versed in the mechanics of them. |
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Posted: 4/2/2014 10:23:48 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do either of you have pics of that you can link to or post? I've handled AKs before, but I'm not very well versed in the mechanics of them. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: A true milspec ar15 lower is the EXACT same as a m16 lower less two holes. AKMs are the same way. Romanian SARs even have an indent where the auto sear would go. The semi auto AK and AKM receivers approved for importation and those approved for manufacturer in the US lack the slot in the right hand lower rail for the auto/safety sear. Do either of you have pics of that you can link to or post? I've handled AKs before, but I'm not very well versed in the mechanics of them.   |
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Posted: 4/2/2014 10:30:54 AM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 4/2/2014 10:52:42 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
A true milspec ar15 lower is the EXACT same as a m16 lower less two holes. AKMs are the same way. Romanian SARs even have an indent where the auto sear would go. The semi auto AK and AKM receivers approved for importation and those approved for manufacturer in the US lack the slot in the right hand lower rail for the auto/safety sear. Do either of you have pics of that you can link to or post? I've handled AKs before, but I'm not very well versed in the mechanics of them. http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b363/MP5Guy/DSCN0429.jpg http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b363/MP5Guy/DSCN0428.jpg I have NO idea what I'm looking at 
Sorry, I fail at AK mechanical comprehension. |
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Posted: 4/2/2014 11:09:40 AM EDT
[#38]
i don't see a problem with it personally.
would seem as though it would be easier to just open up the whole receiver if machining at home as well as lighter. pretty sure my new frontier armory poly lower is about 1 hole and a handful of full auto parts away from a machine gun as well. |
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Posted: 4/2/2014 11:55:27 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We're talking about an agency that declared a fucking shoe lace a machine gun. An agency who can and does change their minds on a whim. Are you planning on selling these? Are you planning on blasting away in full auto on a public range? Do atf agents inspect the internals of your weapons on a regular basis? At some point it might be best to subscribe to a Don't Ask, Don't Tell sort of policy. And then you should probably hope for the best, or be willing to accept the consequences. Well said. |
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Posted: 4/2/2014 12:08:49 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have NO idea what I'm looking at
Sorry, I fail at AK mechanical comprehension. You're looking at the upper end of the auto/safety sear projecting through a hole in the lower rail on the right side of the receiver. If you've never seen a FA AK, you've never seen an auto/safety sear installed in the weapon. The point is that it's somewhat more difficult to convert an AK than simply drilling two holes. |
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Posted: 4/2/2014 12:13:44 PM EDT
[#41]
Outside of the herp-derp-tinfoil-hat reasons, can anyone see writing a letter to the firearms technology as a bad course of action? |
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Posted: 4/2/2014 12:43:30 PM EDT
[#42]
I have no idea why OP is trying to reason this out when the only people you have to reason with are completely unreasonable and have been proven as such.
Waco Ruby Ridge These are the people you would be dealing with. There is no reasonableness there. |
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Posted: 4/2/2014 12:49:43 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're looking at the upper end of the auto/safety sear projecting through a hole in the lower rail on the right side of the receiver. If you've never seen a FA AK, you've never seen an auto/safety sear installed in the weapon. The point is that it's somewhat more difficult to convert an AK than simply drilling two holes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have NO idea what I'm looking at
Sorry, I fail at AK mechanical comprehension. You're looking at the upper end of the auto/safety sear projecting through a hole in the lower rail on the right side of the receiver. If you've never seen a FA AK, you've never seen an auto/safety sear installed in the weapon. The point is that it's somewhat more difficult to convert an AK than simply drilling two holes. Interesting... I appreciate the info |
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Posted: 4/2/2014 12:56:26 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have no idea why OP is trying to reason this out when the only people you have to reason with are completely unreasonable and have been proven as such. Waco Ruby Ridge These are the people you would be dealing with. There is no reasonableness there. Because if someone had it in writing that they said milling the lower that way was okay, and they attempted to press charges after the fact, even a dull lawyer would have a field day with it. Last I checked, I'm not an eccentric religious leader packed into a compound with dozens of families, weapons, and supplies on a hill top where I think the apocalypse is going to start. What the ATF and others did at Waco and Ruby Ridge is completely inexcusable, but those people did a little bit more to draw attention to themselves than build a semi-auto lower receiver. |
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Posted: 4/2/2014 3:39:49 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No it isn't. The ATF has ruled that anything easily converted is NFA. Their idea of easily converted is 8 hours of shop time that they have used to assemble parts kits and call them machine guns. If all you have to do is drill one hole you will lose in court if the ATF ever pushes the issue. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It's legal. Sear hole would be a no no. No it isn't. The ATF has ruled that anything easily converted is NFA. Their idea of easily converted is 8 hours of shop time that they have used to assemble parts kits and call them machine guns. If all you have to do is drill one hole you will lose in court if the ATF ever pushes the issue. 
Stop,,,,,just stop. 
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Posted: 4/2/2014 4:01:06 PM EDT
[#46]
Does OP wear Velcro shoes?
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Posted: 4/2/2014 4:24:18 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Outside of the herp-derp-tinfoil-hat reasons, can anyone see writing a letter to the firearms technology as a bad course of action? Are you fucking serious? Let's make this simple. AR receivers are absolutely legal as long as they do not have the extra two holes to accept an auto-sear. They are and will continue to be legal - right up until the BATFE changes their mind. Which they can, have, and will do again. Don't fucking poke the bear dude. Just stop. |
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Posted: 4/2/2014 4:24:21 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does OP wear Velcro shoes? Hey... easy on, easy off 
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Posted: 4/2/2014 4:27:46 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hey... easy on, easy off Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Does OP wear Velcro shoes? Hey... easy on, easy off How many hacksaw blades do you keep on hand? |
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Posted: 4/2/2014 4:52:37 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How many hacksaw blades do you keep on hand? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Does OP wear Velcro shoes? Hey... easy on, easy off How many hacksaw blades do you keep on hand? None, the only tools I have are in my truck and they are of an automotive nature. 
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