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Posted: 12/11/2002 4:51:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2002 5:04:32 PM EDT by Ire]
I was driving home tonight and I was talking to my brother about creation vs evolution. what do you believe in? [edited to fix the title]
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 4:57:03 PM EDT
Creation.
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 4:59:15 PM EDT
How about "BOTH?" Creation of life, but evolution into what we are today. Keep in mind that there is PROOF that species are constantly in a state of evolution. To deny that would be to deny reality and your image in the mirror.
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 5:00:11 PM EDT
God made man, but he used a monkey to do it.
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 5:02:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2002 5:07:14 PM EDT by Kar98]
Evolution of course. Duh. I rate the creation story the same as the ones about the tooth fairy and goblins.
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 5:04:52 PM EDT
Yeah Yeah. Sorry.
Originally Posted By Kar98: [b]so, are do think it's creation or evolution? [/b] All your base are belong to us. Oh, and evolution of course. Duh. I rate the creation story the same as the ones about the tooth fairy and goblins.
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Link Posted: 12/11/2002 5:05:09 PM EDT
Creationism.
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 5:05:38 PM EDT
first - this has been beaten to death. Second - [b]GOD[/b] created all things. Third - NO WAY am I going into THIRD!!
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 5:07:31 PM EDT
Empty your IM, Grock - it's full!
Originally Posted By Grock: first - this has been beaten to death. Second - [b]GOD[/b] created all things. Third - NO WAY am I going into THIRD!!
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Link Posted: 12/11/2002 5:10:30 PM EDT
Evolution
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 5:19:34 PM EDT
The evolution myth in Genesis is a retelling of the old Marduk creation myth. Marduk created the world in six days and rested on the seventh. He did it by slicing up his mommy to get the required junk for the universe. The later semitic myth follows the same items created and in the same order. By the way it was also Marduk that built an ark and put a buncha' critters on it for forty days and nights. Yeah, he sent out little birdies and stuff. You can read about it and lots of other fun stuff in Testament by John Romer. It is available at many libraries and is also a great video series.
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 5:30:38 PM EDT
Who created God? How did it ALL start? Big Bang? Where did the stuff come from to go "Bang"? Good stuff.
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 5:33:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 5:39:10 PM EDT
Well, if you mean did evolution occur, yes of course it most certainly did. It is not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. If you mean, was life created...no one can say for sure. It very well may have been. But however it was created and whether or not the process was guided by a divine hand, evolution is how life developed from its start to what it is now. Personally, I've always felt that those who insist on a literal 6-day Genesis creation were short-changing their God. A God that has a physical body and crafts man from the dust? That's sooooo bronze-age. Any real divine being would be able to create the universe with the rules ALREADY in place to bring about the development of humanity on Earth through the existing laws of the universe, without resorting to crude parlor tricks.
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 5:41:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2002 5:43:52 PM EDT by The_Breakfast_Fox]
Originally Posted By Balzac72: How about "BOTH?" Creation of life, but evolution into what we are today. Keep in mind that there is PROOF that species are constantly in a state of evolution. To deny that would be to deny reality and your image in the mirror.
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I second this. Life is a very strange thing. I don't think it would have come around on its own. Yet, it constantly evolves. If you hear all opinions, you'll hear a bunch of arguements over "How did (Insert Supreme Being(s) Here) come to be?" or, from the other side, "How did the Big Bang (Or Insert Any Other Scientific Theory Here) come to be?" I based my opinion (A very tenuous one at that) on the theory (I forget who proposed this) that Time does not exist on its own, it is merely the hy00man way of perceiving things.
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 5:47:14 PM EDT
The tricky thing about evolution is that it isn't the whole story. Not by a long shot. It cannot explain the diversity and complexity of life on earth over the period of time that it has occurred. There is something else driving evolution besides natural selection and we don't know what it is. Could be one of the gods, I dunno... And the fact that evolution is not gradual, that it actually goes in incredible spurts interspersed over eons is problematic and, at the moment, unfathomable. OTOH, I can't personally believe that a literal interpretation of the bible is remotely close to the truth....
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 5:51:29 PM EDT
evolution and creation are one in the same.
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 6:07:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2002 6:08:08 PM EDT by Reactionary]
Originally by DoubleFeed: I believe that intelligence is Goatboy.
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Kissup [:D]
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 6:11:31 PM EDT
I am more of an evolutionist than a creationist. IMO: There is a noted adaptability but it is not entirely due to mutation. I have a lot of problems with Darwinism and “Instantaneous” evolution. At what point did the sea goers find appendages advantages? When did the Giraffe find a mutation to support all the biological internals that a extended exterior neck requires? The Galapagos island theories fall into the same problems with adaptations that are first written off when one only studies the exterior of the animal. The interior points to an entirely different creature. The evolutionary mechanism between land/flight, giraffes, Australian wildlife, and other odd creatures subscribes (IMHO) to another undefined phenomenon. Modern beliefs that Jurassic Dinosaurs were warm-blooded (unlike the cold blooded predecessors) and also hollow boned is interesting. An odd transition across all species to also be “Darwinian”. The shared physical and biological traits between different species are also interesting. This can support Darwinism but, like Einstein, fails to explain all earth life as we have interpreted it through time. These keys are not easily written off as evolution. I definitely do not subscribe to instantaneous species. God is there, but that Entity set the ball rolling outside the physical we know as time. There is a answer outside our current science, we are young explorers.
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 6:20:48 PM EDT
Creationism. If an irrefutable law of physics is that everything tends towards chaos, and evolution says that we evolved into our current form after many random changes, how did we evolve up, when everything is trying to break down?
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 6:23:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2002 6:27:22 PM EDT by SSD]
The [b]theory[/b] of evolution. It is still a theory. SSD[0:)]
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 6:31:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SSD: The [b]theory[/b] of evolution. It is still a theory. SSD[0:)]
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And the [b]story[/b] of creation is still a story. [:D]
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 6:43:17 PM EDT
I think it's safe to say that evolution has been occuring for billions of years, and continues to occur, and species were not created in their present form.
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 6:47:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By limaxray: Creationism. If an irrefutable law of physics is that everything tends towards chaos, and evolution says that we evolved into our current form after many random changes, how did we evolve up, when everything is trying to break down?
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Sorry, you're wrong. The Second Law of Thermodynamics does NOT say that everything tends toward chaos. It says that IN A CLOSED SYSTEM, higher energy states tend toward equilibrium with lower energy states. That means, for instance, that hot things get colder. But the Earth is NOT a closed system, it is bombarded by ice from comets and meteors, possibly also biological material from same, sunlight, cosmic radiation, etc... Life works against entropy on a LOCAL level by "borrowing" energy from outside our local system.
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 6:47:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SSD: The [b]theory[/b] of evolution. It is still a theory.
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Yet another creationist displays his ignorance of the scientific definition of the word "theory."
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 6:52:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By llanero: And the fact that evolution is not gradual, that it actually goes in incredible spurts interspersed over eons is problematic and, at the moment, unfathomable.
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Hey,... Time out! This is Creation vs Evolution not Gradualism vs Punctuated Equilibrium.
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 7:08:28 PM EDT
Perhaps it's as easy as: God created life and used what evolution surmises as the mechanism to proliferate the various forms of life we've seen in both the current era and the fossil record. Of course, I could just be full of it.
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 7:11:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By limaxray: Creationism. If an irrefutable law of physics is that everything tends towards chaos, and evolution says that we evolved into our current form after many random changes, how did we evolve up, when everything is trying to break down?
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RikWriter Sorry, you're wrong. The Second Law of Thermodynamics does NOT say that everything tends toward chaos. It says that IN A CLOSED SYSTEM, higher energy states tend toward equilibrium with lower energy states. That means, for instance, that hot things get colder. But the Earth is NOT a closed system, it is bombarded by ice from comets and meteors, possibly also biological material from same, sunlight, cosmic radiation, etc... Life works against entropy on a LOCAL level by "borrowing" energy from outside our local system.
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RikWriter's thermo is dead on. I appreciate his ability to text the solar system as a closed thermo state. I never thought of evolution in an entropy sense. I fail to understand what atomic energy states and the exchange have to do with direct biological changes.
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 7:28:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2002 7:32:00 PM EDT by llanero]
Originally Posted By gardenWeasel:
Originally Posted By llanero: And the fact that evolution is not gradual, that it actually goes in incredible spurts interspersed over eons is problematic and, at the moment, unfathomable.
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Hey,... Time out! This is Creation vs Evolution not Gradualism vs Punctuated Equilibrium.
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DAMN another attempted hijack foiled--and I would've gotten a way with it too, if it weren't for that meddling weasel...
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 7:33:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2002 7:34:06 PM EDT by The_Macallan]
Oh boy here we go again. [rolleyes] QUESTION: [b]"Do think it's creation or evolution?"[/b] ANSWER: [b]"Yes."[/b] It's been too soon since the last "Creation vs. Evolution" thread for me to want to elaborate any further. - maybe. [;)]
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 8:08:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By limaxray: Creationism. If an irrefutable law of physics is that everything tends towards chaos, and evolution says that we evolved into our current form after many random changes, how did we evolve up, when everything is trying to break down?
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1) Earth is not a closed system, as mentioned before 2) Recent experimentation has shown that everything does NOT tend towards chaos... http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=00003AEF-D7A6-1D3D-90FB809EC5880000&pageNumber=1&catID=1
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 8:18:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2002 8:22:03 PM EDT by EricTheHun]
There simply MUST be a God! Only a God with a very grand sense of humor could conceivably create anything or anyone so insufferable as an evolutionist! Yeah, you heard me right! [:D] All you succeed in your own minds in doing is removing the First Cause from the hands of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and laying it at the doorstep of someone else. Someone who you don't know, and whose existence can't be proven any more than God's. Someone, something started the Universe, you just 'know' it wasn't [u]that[/u] God! Eric The(WhyDoTheHeathenRage?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 8:23:29 PM EDT
I vote evolution. Been done in the lab with Fruit Flies and is currently seen among many animals(ostriches a popular example). FWIW I believe that evolution is a product of divine creation. It is the perfect machine for an ever changing environment. Remember the universe IS NOT static and if creationism were to be the true mechanism then we would see no diversity among species and subspecie differentiation. Who else could have thought of something so complex yet simple as evolving life. Continual adaptability! Anyway that's my .02!
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 8:36:19 PM EDT
wheres the "the human mind will never comprhend this so comes faith in either Religion in the form of god/gods or in the form of science"?
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 8:58:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2002 9:02:54 PM EDT by llanero]
I just want to say one last thing: [b]GOD is an evolutionist. With a grand sense of humor.[/b] Good nite--gonna try to skewer bambi and a few hours. LLanero out. Edited to say well, at least ONE of those gods is an evolutionist....
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 9:10:18 PM EDT
In the beginning ... Creation
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 9:37:13 PM EDT
Creationists believe that God created the universe and all the natural laws, theories and physical forces that govern energy and matter contained therein. Energy, light, gravity, atomic forces, electromagnetism, mathematical laws, laws of physics... I guess "evolution" could fall into that too. Why do strict creationists oppose that?
Link Posted: 12/12/2002 3:18:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: There simply MUST be a God! Only a God with a very grand sense of humor could conceivably create anything or anyone so insufferable as an evolutionist!
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The term "evolutionist" is an inaccurate one. Accepting the reality of evolution doesn't require faith or religious-style belief. Most Christians throughout the world accept the reality that evolution occurred. The fundamentalist Creationist movement is a relatively recent phenomenon, and mostly in the United States.
All you succeed in your own minds in doing is removing the First Cause from the hands of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and laying it at the doorstep of someone else. Someone who you don't know, and whose existence can't be proven any more than God's.
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No, the FACT is that most Christians believe that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the same one that used evolution as His means of bringing about the diversity of life that we have today.
Link Posted: 12/12/2002 3:29:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2002 3:31:21 AM EDT by Sharkman629]
I believe in both. The Lord is the Eternal Father. With that having been said, I believe the Lord is the Father of Mother Nature and all of her children. Evolution is only an [u]effect[/u] of Mother Nature and therefore, is only a child. Just my $0.02 EDITED FOR TYPOGRAPHICAL ERRORS
Link Posted: 12/12/2002 3:54:29 AM EDT
I refuse to let anyone reduce my God to an oral tradition, later written. Much later. If HE chose evolution to perform creation, who am I to question that?
Link Posted: 12/12/2002 4:07:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2002 4:09:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2002 5:03:45 AM EDT
Post from RikWriter -
The term "evolutionist" is an inaccurate one.
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Yet they certainly know who they are, don't they? [:D]
Accepting the reality of evolution doesn't require faith or religious-style belief.
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[i][b]Au contraire, mon frere![/b][/i] It is a religion that brooks no heresies, no disputes, no questionings, on pain of excommunication!
Most Christians throughout the world accept the reality that evolution occurred.
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If they are Christians then they must believe in a Creator-God, for that is what their Master clearly taught. If this Creator-God chose in His Divine wisdom to make use of any evolutionary methods in that creation process, it is 'creationism' nonetheless.
The fundamentalist Creationist movement is a relatively recent phenomenon, and mostly in the United States.
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That is simply BULLSHIT! [b]If you were to poll every Christian who lived from the Day of Pentecost to, say, 1880, they would [u]unanimously[/u] hold to the Story of Creation as taught in their Bibles![/b] The fact that many Christians today in the United States may hold Evolution as the manner in which the earth came about, is, itself, a very [u]recent[/u] phenomenon! And it is the fact that many of these folks are slipping back into the past, and coming again to believe in the Creation Story, that has got the 'evolutionists' so damn worried! Well, continue to worry and fret!
No, the FACT is that most Christians believe that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the same one that used evolution as His means of bringing about the diversity of life that we have today.
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See, even you would love to have it both ways! Darwinism denies a Divinely created Earth, period! Christianity denies an Earth created by anyone or anything other than the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, period! There are weasels who would love to season their Christianity with a little broth from Darwin's kettle. It would make them feel so better at Christmas Parties during the Holidays! They could 'wink, wink' feel as smart as their agnostic/atheist friends and co-workers. But the very Christ, Whose Birthday they are presumably celebrating, would warn them of the evil of the 'leaven of the Pharisees.' And this is the very sort of 'leaven' that He warned against! [b]"For God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty," Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 1:27.[/b] If you believe in God, and I assume that you may, then let us run through this little hypo: Ask God to make you a diamond and place it in your hand. He does. Now immediately ask a geologist how old that diamond is. The geologist would say 'millions of years', since it takes that long for carbon, under heat and pressure, to become a diamond. You tell him the diamond is only several minutes old. He laughs loudly and heartily as he calls for campus police to come escort you from the building! You see, the Creator-God could create an earth with its own fossil history, as well. [b][u]Couldn't[/u] He?[/b] Eric The(MerryChristmas!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/12/2002 5:06:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MickeyMouse: I refuse to let anyone reduce my God to an oral tradition, later written. Much later.
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[b]Does 'your God' have a name?[/b] I mean one that does [u]not[/u] come to us through an oral tradition, later written, much later? Eric The(Hmmm?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/12/2002 5:11:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Ask God to make you a diamond and place it in your hand. He does. Now immediately ask a geologist how old that diamond is. The geologist would say 'millions of years', since it takes that long for carbon, under heat and pressure, to become a diamond. You tell him the diamond is only several minutes old. He laughs loudly and heartily as he calls for campus police to come escort you from the building!
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I think it was General Electric scientists that figured out how to do like "god" did.
You see, the Creator-God could create an earth with its own fossil history, as well.
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It's mighty convienient to rebutt evidence contrary to biblical teachings with "Oh, god did that too..."
Link Posted: 12/12/2002 5:18:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: Energy, light, gravity, atomic forces, electromagnetism, mathematical laws, laws of physics... I guess "evolution" could fall into that too. Why do strict creationists oppose that?
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Because Evolution requires death, yet there was no death befor sin. Scott
Link Posted: 12/12/2002 5:22:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TheRicker: Some of ya'll are confusing macro and micro-evolution. Micro-evolution is happening all around us. No one has yet proven macro-evolution exists.
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They also confuse "evolution" with "adaptation". Simply put as the same thing you said![:D] Charles Darwin himself refuted his life's work in the weeks before he died! IF I LIVE MY life according to Jehovah God's plan...and I am wrong what have I lost?[}:(] If you live your life living against and hating Jehovah God...and you are wrong it will be to late![}:D] BigDozer66
Link Posted: 12/12/2002 5:25:08 AM EDT
I've never really been a religious person but I've read most of the Old Testament and I feel that it is just another religion's version on how life was started. With so many religions how can you pick one to have faith in? So you're basically saying that everyone else and their religion is FOS. Doesn't make sense to me. I see Darwins observations at the Galapagos Islands and it makes sense to me. Also seing the vestigial organs on our own bodies (tail bone, and appendix just more proof. I respect a person's choice in their religion. I don't go around bashing religion or getting in big arguments. I have my opinion and they have their's.
Link Posted: 12/12/2002 5:29:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2002 5:31:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 82ndAbn: Bunch of damn heathens here.
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We like to consider ourselves as free thinkers!
Link Posted: 12/12/2002 5:33:58 AM EDT
Both. Evolution happens constatntly, but I don't believe it happened just by chance. And maybe God DID do it all in six days...and since He is God, He could create a 100 million year old fossil in the blink of an eye, could He not? If He is omniscient and omnipotent, you bet He could! But really...who KNOWS??
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