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Posted: 12/6/2002 5:01:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/6/2002 5:01:29 AM EDT by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 5:08:37 AM EDT
The problem with Islam is the exact same problem that Judaism and Christianity have. They are all nice benign religions until idiot fundalmentalists that really dont practice the religion get of hold of it and use it as their hook for get/secure/maintain power.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 5:18:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 5:32:41 AM EDT
Hmm 'the Inquisition' nice buncha peaceful devout christians there. The 'Crusades' another nice buncha peaceful devout christians. I could go on and on about the the abuses of 'christians' you have to go back a bit further for jewish abuses since it seems their neighbors got fed up with them a few thousand years ago and took their threat out. To deny it is to deny history. It is the same old shit, just different dates. Being 'today' means jack shit. To castigate an entire religion simply because the fundamentalists fucking it up is fucking silly. If islam should be wiped out for 9-11 then christianity should have been wiped out for the crusades, or the inquisition.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 5:36:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 5:40:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 5:43:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence: The problem with Islam is the exact same problem that Judaism and Christianity have. They are all nice benign religions until idiot fundalmentalists that really dont practice the religion get of hold of it and use it as their hook for get/secure/maintain power.
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I think you need to go without dinner until your homework is done.......
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 5:45:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence: Hmm 'the Inquisition' nice buncha peaceful devout christians there. The 'Crusades' another nice buncha peaceful devout christians. I could go on and on about the the abuses of 'christians' you have to go back a bit further for jewish abuses since it seems their neighbors got fed up with them a few thousand years ago and took their threat out. To deny it is to deny history. It is the same old shit, just different dates. Being 'today' means jack shit. To castigate an entire religion simply because the fundamentalists fucking it up is fucking silly. If islam should be wiped out for 9-11 then christianity should have been wiped out for the crusades, or the inquisition.
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Let's not forget the devout Christians that wrote the founding documents of this country...
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 5:45:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 5:48:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: Let's not forget the devout Christians that wrote the founding documents of this country...
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Like Thomas Jefferson???
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 5:57:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: Let's not forget the devout Christians that wrote the founding documents of this country...
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Erm, You need to go without dinner til YOU learn a bit more about what the founders actually believed. If any 'religion' could be ascribed to the majority of the founders it would be Unitarianism. How many times is 'Christ' meantioned in the founding documents? Yes most believed in 'God', or a supreme being, but very few actually labeled themselves as 'christian'. If anything they intenionally avoided being labeled as 'christians' and most of the people I see posting here would label them as atheists today.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 6:01:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/6/2002 6:02:25 AM EDT by 9divdoc]
The Crusades were a [b]response[/b] to the muslim invasion of Europe...imagine what life was like for your forebearers under the Islamic conquerers... If you can then you may understand The Crusades When Thomas Jefferson was president he held Christian services and bible studies in the White House He also mandated religous education in public schools using public moneys to pay for it... Jefferson disinfo is very popular among those who try to convince others that American was not a Christian nation.. BTW most of the hundreds of founding fathers were practicing Christians (and of course a handfull of texts written by one of two founders is used to "prove" that they nation wasnt founded by Christisans for Christians)and even those who were not sure...Believed that the ideals of Christianity were [b]essential[/b] for the survival of our nation.. If you do not derive your rights from God Then you must derive them from the state and if from the State then the state can take them away as easily as the state gives them.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 6:05:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/6/2002 6:06:48 AM EDT by guns762]
He's just playing politics. You don't want to actually start a holy war with all of Islam do you? That would be pretty irresponsible. He probably doesn't want to go down in history as starting another "great crusade". Smoozing on one side and kick'in em in the A$$ on the other, works for me. Great line in "Patton" at the beginning, but I can't remember it?
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 6:06:05 AM EDT
This sums up my thoughts on the matter: http://www.cnsnews.com/cartoon/Lang.asp
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 6:28:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/6/2002 6:29:39 AM EDT by bvmjethead]
Originally Posted By ilikelegs: Yeah right,well the Jews and Christians aren't blowing buildings and innocent people up, they don't stone women to death for not covering her body up.
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Legs, Christians might not be doing it now but ask the Muslim people about the crusades. Now you've got a problem. Those "Christians" went through entire countries and told you to convert to Christianity, if you did not, you were slaughtered in the worst way. Men, women and children. I think they misunderstood some of the New Testament commands to love and live in peace over the Old Testament seek and destroy missions of the children of Israel as they were taking the Promised Land. Christians are guilty in recent times too. What about the Christians who killed people who provide abortions and blew up the clinics. Forgetting so soon are we?
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 6:34:05 AM EDT
Just like raising Pigs, got to keep them happy before you kill them. JC
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 6:40:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/6/2002 6:42:09 AM EDT by CAMPYBOB]
"Let's not forget the devout Christians that wrote the founding documents of this country..." yes...some of them actually 'owned' other human beings, i.e. 'property'. very, very devout christians there, i'm sure. that god dude sure would be proud of them.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 6:44:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/6/2002 6:53:25 AM EDT by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 6:46:32 AM EDT
Why does some idiot always bring up "The Inquisition"?
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 6:51:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DevilsAdvocate: Why does some idiot always bring up "The Inquisition"?
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Dunno, maybe because it is relevent to the argument at hand? Of course some idiots wouldnt understand that.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 7:03:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/6/2002 7:06:25 AM EDT by SPECTRE]
Originally Posted By Silence:
Originally Posted By DevilsAdvocate: Why does some idiot always bring up "The Inquisition"?
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Dunno, maybe because it is relevent to the argument at hand? Of course some idiots wouldnt understand that.
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Please explain to me how something that happened hundreds of years ago has any bearing on the events of today ? I don't discount history, nor do I deny it, However, I would rather deal with the current state of affairs happening NOW, not hundreds of years ago. No where have I heard the terrorist muslims using the crusades as the reason for their murder, so your point is moot. Name for me any christian groups, sects etc... that actively support and encourage terrorism TODAY. How many bombings of innocent civilians have been performed by Christians AND condoned and supported by Christian leaders. How many Christians took part in 9/11 ? No one denies the past, but lets deal with the present and our future, and here in the present, islamic terrorists supported, encouraged and condoned by islamic states, clerics and leaders are the enemy.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 7:16:39 AM EDT
What a fucking dolt! Just like the first time he felt the need to mouth off, right after 9/11. "Islam means peace". No it doesn't, you moron, it means submission. I don't know about y'all, but in my book there's a huge difference between peace & submission. This 'ol boy ain't submitting to anybody, at least not without one helluva fight. -Eric
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 7:19:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SPECTRE:
Originally Posted By Silence:
Originally Posted By DevilsAdvocate: Why does some idiot always bring up "The Inquisition"?
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Dunno, maybe because it is relevent to the argument at hand? Of course some idiots wouldnt understand that.
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Please explain to me how something that happened hundreds of years ago has any bearing on the events of today ? I don't discount history, nor do I deny it, However, I would rather deal with the current state of affairs happening NOW, not hundreds of years ago. No where have I heard the terrorist muslims using the crusades as the reason for their murder, so your point is moot. Name for me any christian groups, sects etc... that actively support and encourage terrorism TODAY. How many bombings of innocent civilians have been performed by Christians AND condoned and supported by Christian leaders. How many Christians took part in 9/11 ? No one denies the past, but lets deal with the present and our future, and here in the present, islamic terrorists supported, encouraged and condoned by islamic states, clerics and leaders are the enemy.
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Ok I will type slowly so you can understand. The 'inquistion' remark was a response to a remark that 'you cant compare islamist extremists to christian extremists'. It was a direct counter to that argument. It has bearing because people saying 'Islam is evil and must be stamped out' are the very ones that seem to want to gloss over history, very few religions have a 'clean' history. Nearly all relgions at one point had an extremist viewpoint and should have been stamped out, if you go by the notion that 'islam is evil and should be stamped out'. How would you like for every christian to be judged by Jimmy Swaggert, Jerry Falwell, Jim Baker, Jim Jones, etc. And maybe it is a f-in good thing we dont have 'christian' states today, otherwise armegeddon would have already occured. As to 'terrorist' activities by 'christians' more recently check out Ireland, where both 'sides' are nominally christian, or Lebanon check out the 'Christian Militia Massacres'. And my entire point is that the broad brush I routinely see EVERY muslim painted with is assinine. Sure the fanatical extremist leaders should be taken out, no question about that, but the bigotry has to stop at some point otherwise you are just as bad as they are.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 7:21:44 AM EDT
I can't say what I want to say, because it'd be actionable under the UCMJ.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 7:33:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence:
Originally Posted By SPECTRE:
Originally Posted By Silence:
Originally Posted By DevilsAdvocate: Why does some idiot always bring up "The Inquisition"?
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Dunno, maybe because it is relevent to the argument at hand? Of course some idiots wouldnt understand that.
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Please explain to me how something that happened hundreds of years ago has any bearing on the events of today ? I don't discount history, nor do I deny it, However, I would rather deal with the current state of affairs happening NOW, not hundreds of years ago. No where have I heard the terrorist muslims using the crusades as the reason for their murder, so your point is moot. Name for me any christian groups, sects etc... that actively support and encourage terrorism TODAY. How many bombings of innocent civilians have been performed by Christians AND condoned and supported by Christian leaders. How many Christians took part in 9/11 ? No one denies the past, but lets deal with the present and our future, and here in the present, islamic terrorists supported, encouraged and condoned by islamic states, clerics and leaders are the enemy.
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Ok I will type slowly so you can understand. The 'inquistion' remark was a response to a remark that 'you cant compare islamist extremists to christian extremists'. It was a direct counter to that argument. It has bearing because people saying 'Islam is evil and must be stamped out' are the very ones that seem to want to gloss over history, very few religions have a 'clean' history. Nearly all relgions at one point had an extremist viewpoint and should have been stamped out, if you go by the notion that 'islam is evil and should be stamped out'. How would you like for every christian to be judged by Jimmy Swaggert, Jerry Falwell, Jim Baker, Jim Jones, etc. And maybe it is a f-in good thing we dont have 'christian' states today, otherwise armegeddon would have already occured. As to 'terrorist' activities by 'christians' more recently check out Ireland, where both 'sides' are nominally christian, or Lebanon check out the 'Christian Militia Massacres'. And my entire point is that the broad brush I routinely see EVERY muslim painted with is assinine. Sure the fanatical extremist leaders should be taken out, no question about that, but the bigotry has to stop at some point otherwise you are just as bad as they are.
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Ok, now I'll type s l o w ......MY POINT is that the history of the Christian religion has NO bearing on the muslim terrorist events of today. NEVER have the terrorists used the history of Christianity as their excuse to murder. You can cite many Christian acts of violence, Ireland, abortion bombings, and you can name idiotic Christian leaders who are only out for the money, swaggert, baker etc... BUT THE FACT REMAINS.....The islamic terrorists are SUPPORTED and FUNDED and TRAINED by islamic states. The islamic terrorists actions are CONDONED, APPLAUDED and ENCOURAGED by islamic clerics, leaders and states. Show me ANY Christian terrorists that are supported in the same way ??? I do not blame every muslim, but untill the "peaceful, moderate" muslims take over the faith and OPENLY condemn the acts of these PIGS and when there are no NATION SPONSORS of ISLAMIC TERRORISTS then maybe I'll look at islam in a different light. And still, history has NO BEARING on the reasons these terrorists are murdering.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 7:40:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 7:47:05 AM EDT
Ok... Bush is just trying to keep the 'war on Islamisim' from being seen as a 'war on Islam'. While doing this makes sense, most of the ME believes we are evil anyway, so it's kind of pointless...
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 7:52:22 AM EDT
Spectre- Ok, Ill explain my entire reason for posting in this thread at all. I continually see here on Ar15.com anti-muslim behavior. Not just anti-terrorist, but anti-muslim. I see people saying things along the lines of islam is evil, that every muslim is evil because they are muslim, not for any actions they have actualy taken. I would even bet there are quite a few members here would support Bin Laden if he were a 'christian', and if he was attacking france, or if 9-11 had occured in cairo and 3000 muslims had been killed would be making post cheering the fact. My point is that we should be attacking the terrorists, their leaders, and the countries that support them, not the common people that have no choice in the matter. It shouldnt matter if the terrorists were muslim, christian, jewish, black, white, yellow, red, whateverthafuckcategory. To have the notion that 'I am christian, I am better than the dirty evil muslims because christians dont do terrorism' is wrong headed, and not very christian. It may not be happening at the same scale today as muslim terrorism/exremism but it has happened in the past, it is part of the ebb and flow of history.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 7:55:03 AM EDT
Nice Doggy...
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 8:01:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 8:02:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence: Spectre- Ok, Ill explain my entire reason for posting in this thread at all. I continually see here on Ar15.com anti-muslim behavior. Not just anti-terrorist, but anti-muslim. I see people saying things along the lines of islam is evil, that every muslim is evil because they are muslim, not for any actions they have actualy taken. I would even bet there are quite a few members here would support Bin Laden if he were a 'christian', and if he was attacking france, or if 9-11 had occured in cairo and 3000 muslims had been killed would be making post cheering the fact. My point is that we should be attacking the terrorists, their leaders, and the countries that support them, not the common people that have no choice in the matter. It shouldnt matter if the terrorists were muslim, christian, jewish, black, white, yellow, red, whateverthafuckcategory. To have the notion that 'I am christian, I am better than the dirty evil muslims because christians dont do terrorism' is wrong headed, and not very christian. It may not be happening at the same scale today as muslim terrorism/exremism but it has happened in the past, it is part of the ebb and flow of history.
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Then after the dust settles.....I agree with you 100% I don't blame muslims as a religion, but the muslims who are not supportive of the terrorists are not in power or have a strong enough voice to be heard over the islamic terrorists. Even moderate muslim states are reluctant to condemn the terrorists out of fear that they will be the next target. Like you, I don't care what race, religion, color or creed the terrorists are, if they attack the U.S., they are our enemy and those that will not stand with us and condemn these acts are our enemy.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 8:05:36 AM EDT
GEORGE CARLIN ON THE 10 COMMANDMENTS from "Complaints and Grievances" (HBO special) THOU SHALT NOT KILL Murder. But when you think about it, religion has never really had a big problem with murder. [b]More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason.[/b] All you have to do is look at Northern Ireland, Cashmire, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the World Trade Center to see how seriously the religious folks take thou shalt not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable. It depends on who's doin the killin' and who's gettin' killed.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 8:09:14 AM EDT
Silence- The Germans and the Japanese were once our enemies. The Soviets were once our enemies. Communists are still our enemies. ANY GROUP-political or religious, that chooses to be an enemy of freedom, liberty and private property, IS OUR ENEMY. I think you'll find that concept more prevalent here than hatred for Islam. IMO- Let Islam prove itself to me that they are the religion of peace and I'll consider them to be peaceful. Currently, I don't see ANY Muslim clerics denouncing suicide bombing, 9-11 attacks, embassy bombings, the targeting of Americans overseas, etc. The crusades happened 5 centuries ago. The Black Panthers (another offshoot of the religion of peace) happenned in the 60's. Hope you're wearing asbestos underwear![:D]
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 8:12:15 AM EDT
Remember the CRUSADES? Its Pay Back time now...
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 8:23:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 8:43:03 AM EDT
Muhammed loves the little children, all the children of the world, red, yellow, black and white, there all the same when they ignite... We've been ready to go kill some tangos! Smalls LCpl of Marines
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 10:20:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RustyTX: We are currently at war with radical Muslims and risk war with most of the world no matter what GWB or anyone else says. His current 'acceptance' of Islam is meant to politically avoid angering the nearly 1 billion Muslims who have not openly declared war on us yet. Time will tell if his strategy is right. I personally don't agree with it and would fire the first shot, but that's just me. History is full of power hungry individuals that will hijack any cause or religion to serve their own purposes or allow them to express their anger or insanity. Here's the equation: +Unhappy, impoverished masses + radical ideology + any target group that can easily be demonized and blamed for all ills = war. This was true thousands of years ago and is still true today. Each time this equation happens on a large scale only decisive victory of one party over another will equal peace. Which side we will be on this time is the real question. Give it a few decades and there will be another similar situation with new players. This is just human nature.
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precisely.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 10:32:03 AM EDT
Don't forget that emperor worship is a form of religion. Methinks Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, and Caesar probably have a leg up on the crusades - even if for no other reason than population densities of the 20th century regimes.
Link Posted: 12/9/2002 7:37:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: Jefferson disinfo is very popular among those who try to convince others that American was not a Christian nation..
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So, you've never heard of the "Jefferson Bible," huh?
Link Posted: 12/9/2002 7:58:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence: Hmm 'the Inquisition' nice buncha peaceful devout christians there.
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I believe this one would be the catholic church.
Being 'today' means jack shit.
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So... some Christians remembered and learned from history?
Link Posted: 12/9/2002 8:26:25 AM EDT
Yes, we must not forget what catholics did to Christians during the inqusition. Re. Foxes book of Martyrs
Link Posted: 12/9/2002 9:14:28 AM EDT
"More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason." Interesting quote. I've heard it oft claimed, but the evidence seems lacking. It would seem easier to prove that more people have been killed in the name of the state than name of god. It's certainly true of the 20th century. D'Souza pointed out that it's certainly true that not all muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are muslim. The god of Islam is about control. Completely different personality from Christianity's God of Love. Man's ability to screw up is independant of these kinds of basic differences. Still, if you follow the model to be like god in Islam, you're a tyrant, controlling and dictating the behavior of those around you. After all, virtue is more important than freedom, so we'll force you to be virtuous. Of course that's circular and makes no sense. Freedom is prerequisite for virtue, for it's the uncoerced act that's virtuous, not the coerced one. If you follow the model for Christianity, you pursue love (Jesus being the example). So, at their core, they aren't simply just a couple of religions that can be abused by zealous followers. Fundementally different. Bush is, as others have said, simply tying to win allies. I think he'd say anything if he thought it would justify his personal war. No principle, just raw power. Who's the biggest jerk on the playground that I know I can kick his ass without consequence? Oh, this punk over here that my daddy spanked 10 years ago, and has been starving for the last decade. Nobody will care if I go spank him again. I'll think of a bunch of reasons to justify it, even if those same reasons apply to other nations. Those nations may not be weak enough for this demonstration of power. †/
Link Posted: 12/9/2002 2:57:54 PM EDT
You kiss Ben Affleck with a cig in your mouth, and you post about morality? weird... [img]http://www.tvcc.edu/faculty/ballen/images/photos/benkeith.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 12/9/2002 3:19:53 PM EDT
Bush is an idiot
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WTF did you expect him to say about Islam?? - I got it, lets call them a murdering pack of rats that need to be exterminated HEIL LEGS!!! If you are so hot to exterminate them, hop a jet and go to work big guy
Link Posted: 12/9/2002 3:43:15 PM EDT
Yes, its a little early to be preaching genocide at the moment. Most of the Islamic world has been inactive in this. They are digging a hole for themselves by not publicly, openly, and unequivocaly denouncing the acts of terrorists and leaders of certain nations and movements who use Islam as justification for agression against others. The longer they are silent about it the more they all become culpible, like the population of Germany did for their failure to disown Hitler when they had a chance, even though most of them took no active part in his atrocities. However the Muslims still have time to change their ways. You may beleve that this is unlikely. That a World War between Islam and the Western World will happen. I happen to beleve it myself. But untill it starts, the uninvolved nations and individual Muslims everywhere have a chance to decide to act and prevent it or at least to determine whos side they will be on.
Link Posted: 12/9/2002 4:33:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: The Crusades were a [b]response[/b] to the muslim invasion of Europe...imagine what life was like for your forebearers under the Islamic conquerers... If you can then you may understand The Crusades
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The Christians killed more christians and jews than muslims during the Crusades. When they took Jersulam finally, they entered it killing everyone they found. They rounded jews into their synagouges and burned them alive in it. There were piles of bodies stacked higher than a person, with the heads in a seperate pile, most of them Jews. Islam is not the only religion people kill over.
Link Posted: 12/9/2002 4:49:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/9/2002 6:08:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/9/2002 10:06:22 PM EDT
Your analogy is a good one. Maybe the muslims aren't speaking up for the same reason most Germans didn't; because they support the current movement.
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I was being charitable. The longer this goes on without a postitive response from the Muslim world, then you have to come to that conclusion. But, since the natural course of such a conflict leads to us comitting genocide, we have to be extremely careful. Make sure that we cannot be later legitimately second guessed. Given their stubborness the Islamic world will eventually provide us with the necessity.
Link Posted: 12/9/2002 10:29:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/9/2002 10:30:35 PM EDT by raven]
The Muslims need a Reformation. All the Muslims who want to worship and pray in peace, get along with other religions, consider jihad a personal spiritual war against sins, join civilized society? Get in this group. All the Muslims who think the fast track to heaven is blow shit up, maintain medieval worldviews, who want to oppress women and gays, kill Jews and Americans, who think Islam is the only valid religion and political system and all must submit to it or die? Get in this group here. So we can kill you [:D] If the Muslims dont do this, if the moderate easy going and life affirming ones keep supporting and idolizing the crazy and death cult muslims, they have only themselves to blame that their whole religion gets painted as a bunch of psychopathic nutcases.
Link Posted: 12/10/2002 9:02:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ilikelegs:
Originally Posted By BOFH:
Bush is an idiot
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WTF did you expect him to say about Islam?? - I got it, lets call them a murdering pack of rats that need to be exterminated HEIL LEGS!!! If you are so hot to exterminate them, hop a jet and go to work big guy
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HEIL LEGS!!! ? WTF ? Can't you do better ?
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Legs, When SHTF in Iraq the rest of the Islamic world will choose sides. We really could wind up at war with that whole pile of waste. Even if Bush regarded that whole religion as being ripe for a U235 enema, WTF is to be gained by saying so? What could we loose? How about the support of Turkey, Jordan and Kuwait... It's just stupid to antagonize them. -That probably went over your head too
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