[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Evolution vs Creation (Page 1 of 5)
Posted: 12/3/2013 10:58:53 PM EDT
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Do I have your attention? Good. Now, hear this: I just got off the phone with my sister, who is this --> <-- close to accepting evolution by natural selection as fact. This is a huge hurdle, for somebody who takes the creation story in Genesis literally. But, she can't quite get over the hump, because she feels the two accounts of life after the formation of DNA (I got her past the big bang and abiogenesis hurdle - allowing for God's intervention, for the sake of expediency), are mutually exclusive. She doesn't feel that the creation story in Genesis and the theory of evolution are congruent. I think it's possible that they might be. Problem is, I'm an atheist. So, here's my request: Atheists? Shut the fuck up, on this one. Not interested. Creationists, who think evolution is bunk? Pipe down. This isn't your thread. Piss off. I'm making a plea to Christians who also subscribe to the theory of evolution. Why is it true, and why does it not contradict the Bible? My sister may very well read this, so be mindful of that in answering. Thanks, scientifically-minded Christians.
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How about an agnostic that was raised in a strict christian house?
Evolution doesn't contradict the bible, as a matter of fact it would be a smart idea for a god to include such a tool for any being in an ever changing environment. this tool would allow a species to adapt through genetic mutation and survival of the fittest to any environment that they would find themselves facing. Otherwise the god would have to make sure that the environment never changed, and we know that isn't true. |
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If she's not anti-Catholic she can read a book Emeritus Pope Benedict wrote about the subject. http://www.amazon.com/In-Beginning-Catholic-Understanding-Resourcement/dp/0802841066 edit: This is more a theological treatise so maybe it's not what you're looking for. |
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Quoted: How about an agnostic that was raised in a strict christian house? Evolution doesn't contradict the bible, as a matter of fact it would be a smart idea for a god to include such a tool for any being in an ever changing environment. this tool would allow a species to adapt through genetic mutation and survival of the fittest to any environment that they would find themselves facing. Otherwise the god would have to make sure that the environment never changed, and we know that isn't true. This thread (hopefully), will help her with that. And it's better if it's explained by Christians who subscribe to both the Bible, and the theory of evolution - and have pondered this very conundrum.
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Quoted: If she's not anti-Catholic she can read a book Emeritus Pope Benedict wrote about the subject. http://www.amazon.com/In-Beginning-Catholic-Understanding-Resourcement/dp/0802841066  EDIT: Try not to go there. It's as bad as saying you're an atheist. Well, almost.
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Do I have your attention? Good. Now, hear this: I just got off the phone with my sister, who is this --> <-- close to accepting evolution by natural selection as fact. This is a huge hurdle, for somebody who takes the creation story in Genesis literally. But, she can't quite get over the hump, because she feels the two accounts of life after the formation of DNA (I got her past the big bang and abiogenesis hurdle - allowing for God's intervention, for the sake of expediency), are mutually exclusive. She doesn't feel that the creation story in Genesis and the theory of evolution are congruent. I think it's possible that they might be. Problem is, I'm an atheist. So, here's my request: Atheists? Shut the fuck up, on this one. Not interested. Creationists, who think evolution is bunk? Pipe down. This isn't your thread. Piss off. I'm making a plea to Christians who also subscribe to the theory of evolution. Why is it true, and why does it not contradict the Bible? My sister may very well read this, so be mindful of that in answering. Thanks, scientifically-minded Christians.
Problem is you are not a Christian if you subscribe to evolution. |
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Quoted: Matthew 18:6 I don't want to seem pedantic here, but how does this help with her problem with speciation, or "Macro Evolution", as she likes to call it?
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That doesn't account for speciation. I've already got her on my side, when it comes to "kinds". She's not keen on the idea that entirely new species arose through this process, because she thinks it directly contradicts the creation story in Genesis. I've explained it to her, and he actually gets the reasoning, and the process. But she's holding short, because she thinks it contradicts what's in the Bible. This thread (hopefully), will help her with that. And it's better if it's explained by Christians who subscribe to both the Bible, and the theory of evolution - and have pondered this very conundrum. Quoted:
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How about an agnostic that was raised in a strict christian house? Evolution doesn't contradict the bible, as a matter of fact it would be a smart idea for a god to include such a tool for any being in an ever changing environment. this tool would allow a species to adapt through genetic mutation and survival of the fittest to any environment that they would find themselves facing. Otherwise the god would have to make sure that the environment never changed, and we know that isn't true. This thread (hopefully), will help her with that. And it's better if it's explained by Christians who subscribe to both the Bible, and the theory of evolution - and have pondered this very conundrum. A rational and reasonable person is only capable of believing in one or the other, BIBLICAL CREATION AND EVOLUTION ARE AND WILL ALWAYS BE CONFLICTING IDEOLOGIES!!! |
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I am a creationist that subscribes to evolution. To make a simple analogy, if you create a pot from clay, you do not go from a lump of clay to a pot straight away. The clay has to undergo slow transformations before it eventually becomes a pot. In terms of the creation story, I believe it holds true. I believe that they used a "day" since that's a unit of measurement people back then could understand. They simply would not have understood "God took 30 million years to create the stars" etc. They worded it so that people could actually understand it, especially because knowledge back then was so limited. Try explaining natural selection to a 3yr old child, or explaining fiscal responsibility to an obama supporter. |
| enough time tackling a problem through micro evolution results in macro evolution. Its the same process, evolution is really about solving a problem through change and genetic variation, given enough time, and enough changes you wind up with whole new species. |
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But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. I don't want to seem pedantic here, but how does this help with her problem with speciation, or "Macro Evolution", as she likes to call it? Quoted:
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Matthew 18:6 I don't want to seem pedantic here, but how does this help with her problem with speciation, or "Macro Evolution", as she likes to call it? Pretty sure that was aimed at you and had nothing to do with helping her. |
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Quoted: enough time tackling a problem through micro evolution results in macro evolution. Its the same process, evolution is really about solving a problem through change and genetic variation, given enough time, and enough changes you wind up with whole new species. I need to get her over that hump. Hard core Christians that know evolution is a fact (and a theory), would really come in handy right about now...
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I'm catholic, catholic school k-12, altar boy, etc etc, and don't take creationism, or much at all in the bible literally. It's a collection of exaggerated stories passed down dozens of times, to help lead you down the path to a good life. So to most uber Christians, I'm probably a terrible person and need to be saved. And science. I like science. 
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She's anti-Catholic.
EDIT: Try not to go there. It's as bad as saying you're an atheist. Well, almost. lol Called it. 
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A rational and reasonable person is only capable of believing in one or the other, BIBLICAL CREATION AND EVOLUTION ARE AND WILL ALWAYS BE CONFLICTING IDEOLOGIES!!! Quoted:
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How about an agnostic that was raised in a strict christian house? Evolution doesn't contradict the bible, as a matter of fact it would be a smart idea for a god to include such a tool for any being in an ever changing environment. this tool would allow a species to adapt through genetic mutation and survival of the fittest to any environment that they would find themselves facing. Otherwise the god would have to make sure that the environment never changed, and we know that isn't true. This thread (hopefully), will help her with that. And it's better if it's explained by Christians who subscribe to both the Bible, and the theory of evolution - and have pondered this very conundrum. A rational and reasonable person is only capable of believing in one or the other, BIBLICAL CREATION AND EVOLUTION ARE AND WILL ALWAYS BE CONFLICTING IDEOLOGIES!!! They really aren't, because they are talking about different things. I am a young earth, 144 day creationist that believes in evolution now. Critical point (schwerpunkt) is "created with an appearance of age". |
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Quoted: I am a creationist that subscribes to evolution. To make a simple analogy, if you create a pot from clay, you do not go from a lump of clay to a pot straight away. The clay has to undergo slow transformations before it eventually becomes a pot. In terms of the creation story, I believe it holds true. I believe that they used a "day" since that's a unit of measurement people back then could understand. They simply would not have understood "God took 30 million years to create the stars" etc. They worded it so that people could actually understand it, especially because knowledge back then was so limited. Try explaining natural selection to a 3yr old child, or explaining fiscal responsibility to an obama supporter. I'm in the same boat as you.
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Quoted: "who is this --> <-- close " thats outstanding!!! im still laughing hahaha. good work OP.  _... |
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Not true. I've interacted with tons of Christians on this very board over the years, who accept the theory as true. And I need their help.
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Problem is you are not a Christian if you subscribe to evolution. And I need their help.
It does not matter what they accept as truth, only what the Lord says is truth. He is the only truth....that is if you are a Christian and believe what the Bible says. Just like the "gay" churches that preach how is love a sin. They are still living in sin and living what God said is an abomination. They can claim all they want that it is ok and the truth but in the end we know what God wants us to do and it is not believing in evolution or living in sin. |
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Well it's a good damn thing that I've intentionally separated the two then, isn't it? Quoted:
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the theory of evolution is not the same as the theory of creation of life. This. Two different questions. You do understand I am agreeing with you, not arguing, right? Sarcasm doesn't really seem warranted. |
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Do I have your attention? Good. Now, hear this: I just got off the phone with my sister, who is this --> <-- close to accepting evolution by natural selection as fact. This is a huge hurdle, for somebody who takes the creation story in Genesis literally. But, she can't quite get over the hump, because she feels the two accounts of life after the formation of DNA (I got her past the big bang and abiogenesis hurdle - allowing for God's intervention, for the sake of expediency), are mutually exclusive. She doesn't feel that the creation story in Genesis and the theory of evolution are congruent. I think it's possible that they might be. Problem is, I'm an atheist. So, here's my request: Atheists? Shut the fuck up, on this one. Not interested. Creationists, who think evolution is bunk? Pipe down. This isn't your thread. Piss off. I'm making a plea to Christians who also subscribe to the theory of evolution. Why is it true, and why does it not contradict the Bible? My sister may very well read this, so be mindful of that in answering. Thanks, scientifically-minded Christians.
So what you want is to do is try and convince her that God didn't create man and woman like the Bible says but that they instead evolved and God was involved? That doesn't really seem to fit with the biblical account and where people come from and who we are beholden to is the at the heart of the creation versus evolution debate. |
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Quoted: It does not matter what they accept as truth, only what the Lord says is truth. He is the only truth....that is if you are a Christian and believe what the Bible says. Just like the "gay" churches that preach how is love a sin. They are still living in sin and living what God said is an abomination. They can claim all they want that it is ok and the truth but in the end we know what God wants us to do and it is not believing in evolution or living in sin. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Problem is you are not a Christian if you subscribe to evolution. And I need their help. It does not matter what they accept as truth, only what the Lord says is truth. He is the only truth....that is if you are a Christian and believe what the Bible says. Just like the "gay" churches that preach how is love a sin. They are still living in sin and living what God said is an abomination. They can claim all they want that it is ok and the truth but in the end we know what God wants us to do and it is not believing in evolution or living in sin. Maybe you missed the original post, but this thread is intended for scientifically-minded Christians who also believe the Bible to be true. You're...halfway there. Come back next time.
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Quoted: So what you want is to do is try and convince her that God didn't create man and woman like the Bible says but that they instead evolved and God was involved? That doesn't really seem to fit with the biblical account and where people come from and who we are beholden to is the at the heart of the creation versus evolution debate. Can actual Christians who accept the theory of evolution for the fact that it is, take a moment or two to respond, in a few words?
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Quoted: I don't think that there are a whole lot of Christians who accept evolution here to begin with. The odds of finding one at this time of night, on a weeknight, are slim to none IMO. I'll admit this is a lousy time of night to start this. Still, threads live on for days. I'll get some help.
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I don't think that there are a whole lot of Christians who accept evolution here to begin with. The odds of finding one at this time of night, on a weeknight, are slim to none IMO. I believe that the biblical account is true, but Yahweh created with an appearance of age. Adam had a belly-button, though he had no umbilical cord. This isn't the strawman of "God was trying to trick us", but just the way He decided to do it. Who are we "Christians" to judge Him for it? The issue of creation has nothing to do with the issue of what He decided to use to run the world thereafter. So, after He created, and after the Flood, natural means have moved on, and what the scientists see is what's happening now. Just not necessarily what happened back then. Beware the Uniformitarian Hypothesis error. |
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Quoted: There are a shit ton (a majority, even), and I need their help. Quoted: Quoted: I don't think that there are a whole lot of Christians who accept evolution here to begin with. The odds of finding one at this time of night, on a weeknight, are slim to none IMO. I'll admit this is a lousy time of night to start this. Still, threads live on for days. I'll get some help. sudo shutdown -h now |
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Honestly? I'm not sure you're the best person to opine on what the Lord says, as truth. Non-believer though I may be, I'd have to imagine he's a bit more clever than you are. Maybe you missed the original post, but this thread is intended for scientifically-minded Christians who also believe the Bible to be true. You're...halfway there. Come back next time. Quoted:
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Problem is you are not a Christian if you subscribe to evolution. And I need their help.
It does not matter what they accept as truth, only what the Lord says is truth. He is the only truth....that is if you are a Christian and believe what the Bible says. Just like the "gay" churches that preach how is love a sin. They are still living in sin and living what God said is an abomination. They can claim all they want that it is ok and the truth but in the end we know what God wants us to do and it is not believing in evolution or living in sin. Maybe you missed the original post, but this thread is intended for scientifically-minded Christians who also believe the Bible to be true. You're...halfway there. Come back next time. I'll bow out but all I'm saying is there is no half way like a lot of "Christians" say there is. God is more clever then anyone on this planet but he speaks clearly for us and is not hard to understand. You will not find the answer you are looking for because it does not exist. He already gave us the clear answer. Good luck in your search though.
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There are a shit ton (a majority, even), and I need their help. I'll admit this is a lousy time of night to start this. Still, threads live on for days. I'll get some help.
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I don't think that there are a whole lot of Christians who accept evolution here to begin with. The odds of finding one at this time of night, on a weeknight, are slim to none IMO. I'll admit this is a lousy time of night to start this. Still, threads live on for days. I'll get some help.
I bet you are going to get a few private messages instead of them publicly posting opportunities for the whole of arfcom to attempt to gangbang their cherished beliefs. |
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Quoted: I bet you are going to get a few private messages instead of them publicly posting opportunities for the whole of arfcom to attempt to gangbang their cherished beliefs. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't think that there are a whole lot of Christians who accept evolution here to begin with. The odds of finding one at this time of night, on a weeknight, are slim to none IMO. I'll admit this is a lousy time of night to start this. Still, threads live on for days. I'll get some help. I bet you are going to get a few private messages instead of them publicly posting opportunities for the whole of arfcom to attempt to gangbang their cherished beliefs. |
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I'd go with Micro. Im not sure you will find many hardcore Christians that believe in evolution. The first 5 words of the Bible are "In the beginning God created.." so Im not sure you will find who you are looking for. Sorry man Wow, I feel like the Lone Ranger. I can separate beginnings from continuing processes. Even Biblically. Not necessarily connected. |
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Hey, that's great. You're one of those Creationists I told to piss off in the OP. I suppose it's not as sexy as the Atheists I told to fuck off in the OP, but I'd hate to be accused of playing favorites. Can actual Christians who accept the theory of evolution for the fact that it is, take a moment or two to respond, in a few words? Quoted:
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So what you want is to do is try and convince her that God didn't create man and woman like the Bible says but that they instead evolved and God was involved? That doesn't really seem to fit with the biblical account and where people come from and who we are beholden to is the at the heart of the creation versus evolution debate. Can actual Christians who accept the theory of evolution for the fact that it is, take a moment or two to respond, in a few words? The problem that you run into is that when God makes man and woman it is delivered in a very literal way. God even makes Eve out of one of Adam's ribs and at that point they are the first and only humans. Even if you wanted to fit some amount of evolution into the rest of the creation story you have to totally ignore everything that the Bible says to end up at a place where He doesn't very literally create man and woman. Even if you hurdle that like Chief Justice John Roberts making an Obamacare ruling you still end up having to make a decision on if humans have souls and where they come from. If you say we don't have them then you discount the Bible completely and if you say that we have them but not from God you discount the Bible completely and if you say we have them and they are from God then you are agreeing to what is probably the most important point when it comes to creation which is that God is the true source of life and the fate of our souls rests in His hands. |
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It's simple. Both literally happened. The paradigms of reality were different back then; broader and more discrete, less constricted and far more dynamic than is possible today. God said "let there be light", and at the same time occupying another probability string the big bang occurred. Fishes and birds were created in one day along one wave, while another encompassed a billion years of evolution. At the time Adam and Eve were eating from the tree, a group of proto-human apes were gaining a sort of self-awareness and higher reasoning abilities over thousands of years. Cain the farmer really did murder Abel the hunter, this was not a symbolic story of agriculture supplanting the hunter-gatherer lifestyle, it actually happened, but so did the supplantation of the hunter-gatherers in the fertile crescent in an equally valid reality where the Cain/Abel story is only allegory.
Try telling her that. 
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Wow, I feel like the Lone Ranger. I can separate beginnings from continuing processes. Even Biblically. Not necessarily connected. Quoted:
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I'd go with Micro. Im not sure you will find many hardcore Christians that believe in evolution. The first 5 words of the Bible are "In the beginning God created.." so Im not sure you will find who you are looking for. Sorry man Wow, I feel like the Lone Ranger. I can separate beginnings from continuing processes. Even Biblically. Not necessarily connected. Aren't we agreeing in a sense? Micro Evolution within species and such, to preserve the life of the species. |
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Aren't we agreeing in a sense? Micro Evolution within species and such, to preserve the life of the species. Quoted:
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I'd go with Micro. Im not sure you will find many hardcore Christians that believe in evolution. The first 5 words of the Bible are "In the beginning God created.." so Im not sure you will find who you are looking for. Sorry man Wow, I feel like the Lone Ranger. I can separate beginnings from continuing processes. Even Biblically. Not necessarily connected. Aren't we agreeing in a sense? Micro Evolution within species and such, to preserve the life of the species. Possibly. I beleve that Nah took a pair of "cats" on the Ark, and then look at what we have now. |
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Old one... but a good one. Wiki... I know... but they link to sources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_in_Biology_Makes_Sense_Except_in_the_Light_of_Evolution |
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Problem is you are not a Christian if you subscribe to evolution. https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-olTaU7EhX4k/Up7yg8H-6UI/AAAAAAAAAdw/xfpyn1-BQPk/w402-h860-no/Wut%252B.%252BSource%252BImgur_310a3a_4905998.jpg Guess you missed the point of what a Christian believes in and has faith in. Science is a wonderful tool but has been wrong about many things and can not explain many others. |
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Not true. I've interacted with tons of Christians on this very board over the years, who accept the theory as true. And I need their help.
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Problem is you are not a Christian if you subscribe to evolution. And I need their help.
Society molds religion to their liking. Not the other way around.
For a modern example, look at the acceptance of gays in some churches. It's pretty clear what the bible says about men banging each other. It's also pretty clear about other things that we find repulsive today. |
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I believe the bible is not so much the word of God, as it is the word of man writing down his best guess. Christians would not call me a Christian, even if I claimed to be one myself. I'll go a bit farther back than evolution and simply say that the universe exists. But it doesn't necessarily have to exist. Ice melts at a certain temperature. Rock melts at a much higher temperature. The elements that make up our universe can combine to form complex chemical compounds capable of encoding vast amounts of data. I cannot believe that EVERYTHING exists by accident or "just because". So while I find it hard to believe that a world with hundreds of different religions can have any one religion be right about everything, I also find it hard to believe that the incredible sophistication built into the laws of physics that govern the way matter and energy interact, or the fact that matter and energy exist at all, is just happenstance. I think it's more likely some all-powerful intelligence defined the parameters and set the big bang in motion. But I also think that intelligence has taken a "hands-off" approach once things were set in motion. Otherwise, why would good people suffer while evil people thrive? So to answer your question, it isn't science that contains the contradiction. Evolution makes perfect sense, and pesticide resistant insects and antibiotic resistant bacteria are living proof. What does she think of all the gospels they keep finding in caves that didn't make it into the bible, and the political forces of the time that would have influenced which ones made the cut? |