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Posted: 11/25/2002 2:45:54 PM EDT
[url]http://www.helenair.com/helena/1a5.html[/url]
The incident came to an end when Daem pulled his pickup across the flow of traffic and attempted to force the driver of the minivan to stop. Instead of braking before reaching his truck as Daem had hoped, the minivan slammed into the side of his vehicle. At that point, officials say, Daem jumped out of his truck, pointed his finger at the driver of the minivan and said, “Gotcha.” Daem remembers saying, “Gotcha,” but he doesn’t recollect doing a type of Super Bowl dance as officers documented in their reports.
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Link Posted: 11/25/2002 2:51:01 PM EDT
“To me, it was the responsibility of a citizen. They could have killed somebody.”
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SIR ROBERT PEEL'S NINE PRINCIPLES The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder. The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon public approval of police actions. Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observance of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public. The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force. Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to public opinion but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law. Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient. Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to [red]duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.[/red] Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary. The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.
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They should have thanked him and the City should have paid for the damages to his vehicle. (His insurance company sure as hell won't.) He quite possibly [i]saved[/i] a life or two.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 3:12:47 PM EDT
The government does not like for people to be self sufficient or responsible for themselves. If people are not helpless then their budgets would be lost.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 3:15:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 3:27:36 PM EDT
[V] At least shake the guys hand or something
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 3:39:14 PM EDT
Bad language disclaimer: Don't read anymore of my post if you don't like to cuss. I CAN'T BELEIVE THE FUCKING NERVE OF THOSE WHO CHARGED HIM!! Truely sad world we live in!!
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 4:02:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2002 4:07:48 PM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
First let me say I don' think that he should have been charged. But, police officers are trained in many places that ramming another vehicle is deadly force. If in this chase it had been a police vehicle that had intentionally caused a "t-bone" crash would you guys say that the police used apropriate force? I doubt that Daem knew why the pursuit was occuring. What if it was due to an equipment violation? What if it was because of a speed violation? What if the guy was speeding because his pregnant wife was in labor? What if the driver was drunk, and didn't react at all to Daem pulling in front of him, and ended up killing himself or Daem?
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 4:12:20 PM EDT
It does not matter why the chase ensued. There was a car chase that was endangering the lives of the perp, the police and the people. It was the duty of each citizen to stop it if they thought they could do so safely. He did the right thing and he is being punished for it.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 4:29:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: What if it was due to an equipment violation? What if it was because of a speed violation? What if the guy was speeding because his pregnant wife was in labor? What if the driver was drunk, and didn't react at all to Daem pulling in front of him, and ended up killing himself or Daem?
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What if it was Manuel Noriega, who had just escaped from prison, that was driving the car and he had just ran over your mom and would have escaped and fled the country if this guy hadn't wrecked him? The "what if" game is a stupid one. The truth is, this guy stopped two criminals who were endangering the public and risked his own life in doing so. If he were a cop he would get a medal. Instead he is just a "civilian" and ending up stealing the glory and got a fine for it. It's bullshit and you and I both know it.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 4:33:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1_153_370_371_407
... Daem remembers saying, “Gotcha,” but he doesn’t recollect doing a type of Super Bowl dance as officers documented in their reports.
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... LOL, now that's an image I can just see.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 4:38:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:If in this chase it had been a police vehicle that had intentionally caused a "t-bone" crash would you guys say that the police used apropriate force?
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from the story it sounds like he pulled in front of the guy with enough space for the dude to brake. it doesn't sound like he planned on a tbone happening. maybe if the incident killed someone could i see him being held in some way responsible, but that didn't happen here, so why charge him?
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 4:41:39 PM EDT
Ponyboy, Reactionary, You both answered the second paart of my question but skipped over the first. I will point out, again, that I don't think he should have been charged. But police officers have to articulate an actual deadly threat in order to ram a fleeing vehicle, because ramming is deadly force. Should other people be able to use deadly force in situations that police are restricted from using that same force? Spike strips are NOT deadly force an can basically be used at any speed for 4 wheel, or more vehicles. Although foot pusrsuit........never mind. PIT manuever to spin a vehicle is not deadly force, but is restricted to under 35 mph in WI. Before you wind up on me, I have been in pursuits, and I think the whole idea is to stop the fleeing vehicle. Followong them until they run out of gas or crash seems like a "no plan" to me. You should always have a plan, and a back-up plan. If a pursuit is started and using force to stop the pursuit would be excessive it should probably be terminated by the police.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 4:57:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Ponyboy, Reactionary, You both answered the second paart of my question but skipped over the first. I will point out, again, that I don't think he should have been charged. But police officers have to articulate an actual deadly threat in order to ram a fleeing vehicle, because ramming is deadly force. Should other people be able to use deadly force in situations that police are restricted from using that same force?
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Yes, I believe so, though the use of deadly force doesn't even seem to apply in this case. It sounds to me like the guy made a roadblock and the two girls ran into him, though knowing how women drive, I doubt it was intentional [;)]
Spike strips are NOT deadly force an can basically be used at any speed for 4 wheel, or more vehicles. Although foot pusrsuit........never mind.
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Spike strips aren't always practical and many times they don't work though they are an excellent tool that should be used whenever possible.
PIT manuever to spin a vehicle is not deadly force, but is restricted to under 35 mph in WI.
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Plastic bullets aren't deadly force either. What's your point?
Before you wind up on me, I have been in pursuits, and I think the whole idea is to stop the fleeing vehicle. Followong them until they run out of gas or crash seems like a "no plan" to me. You should always have a plan, and a back-up plan. If a pursuit is started and using force to stop the pursuit would be excessive it should probably be terminated by the police.
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Sounds to me like this guy had his shit together (read - plan) a little better than the police and he got screwed in the deal, which we both agree on. What we don't agree on is the explaining away on why he got screwed.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 5:25:48 PM EDT
Ok Ponyboy, Roadblocks and ramming are almost universally considered deadly force. If we say he set up a roadblock or it was ramming it doesn't matter in the sense that they would both be deadly force. Back in the day, I got into a pursuit going after a guy for 94/45. It lasted 3.4 miles, in 98 seconds. That is an avg. speed of 120+ mph. It ended when he tried to get on a side street. He spun, repeatdly, leaving 500+ feet of marks. When I got sight of him again, his vehicle lights were off and he was off the left side of the road, stopped, facing the way he had just come from. I drove until I was 50-75' from him, took the center of the road angling my car's lights at him, and stopped. I didn't open my car door, I was concerned that if he tried fleeing again he would take off my car door and arm. Well he started coming at me, slowly, he went about 40' before stopping. At that point I used the PA and had him put his hands up. I held him there until more help showed up and arreseted him. You know what happened, I got written up for unauthorized deadly force. Since he didn't have room to drive around my vehicle, it was a roadblock. I said it couldn't be a roadblock, he was stopped. It can't be deadly force, even if he had accelerated and hit my car the speeds would be too low. I asked if it would have been better to allow him to re-start the pursuit by getting by me? I was told not to initiate a roadblock without persmission. Does that clear up why I have questions about whether or not someone should just pull out of traffic in front of a pursuit? And I know what the general feeling is on this board about pursuits, you'all don't care for 'em. Pardon me for trying to debate an incident.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 5:27:37 PM EDT
Why yes private citizens can and do have the right to use deadly force above and beyond that of law enforcment. At least in the Great State of Texas. Look it up. Especially at night, we can shoot to protect property which I am quite sure a LE can't.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 5:39:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Ok Ponyboy, Roadblocks and ramming are almost universally considered deadly force. If we say he set up a roadblock or it was ramming it doesn't matter in the sense that they would both be deadly force. Back in the day, I got into a pursuit going after a guy for 94/45. It lasted 3.4 miles, in 98 seconds. That is an avg. speed of 120+ mph. It ended when he tried to get on a side street. He spun, repeatdly, leaving 500+ feet of marks. When I got sight of him again, his vehicle lights were off and he was off the left side of the road, stopped, facing the way he had just come from. I drove until I was 50-75' from him, took the center of the road angling my car's lights at him, and stopped. I didn't open my car door, I was concerned that if he tried fleeing again he would take off my car door and arm. Well he started coming at me, slowly, he went about 40' before stopping. At that point I used the PA and had him put his hands up. I held him there until more help showed up and arreseted him. You know what happened, I got written up for unauthorized deadly force. Since he didn't have room to drive around my vehicle, it was a roadblock. I said it couldn't be a roadblock, he was stopped. It can't be deadly force, even if he had accelerated and hit my car the speeds would be too low. I asked if it would have been better to allow him to re-start the pursuit by getting by me? I was told not to initiate a roadblock without persmission.
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Well, it sounds like you got screwed too.
Does that clear up why I have questions about whether or not someone should just pull out of traffic in front of a pursuit? And I know what the general feeling is on this board about pursuits, you'all don't care for 'em.
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Actually, I have nothing against pursuits as long as they aren't ran through populated areas. Most of those people need to be stopped and arrested. If they get killed in the pursuit then they had it comming, since they decided to take the risk. I think the police should have more discretion in stopping pursuits. I've seen the aftermath of a couple of pursuits that ended in deadly crashes with bodies laying out in the road and such. I bet the dead criminals wished someone had set up a roadblock before they had a chance to get obliterated in the intersection, but again, it was their choice to run and they got what was comming but innocent people were injured as well. As a side note, I also find high speed chases when they're being covered live on television.
Pardon me for trying to debate an incident.
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You're welcome
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 6:42:08 PM EDT
Well, If this guy slowly put his vehicle in front of thier's and the driver refused to break, but rather hit the vehicle....they are at fault....unless he ran a stop sign or red light....as far as I can tell.... But, I dont know the entire story, I wasnt there. If I was there with 9 other people, there would still be 10 different stories(slightly). But, from what I can tell, the guy that did this, regardless of boastfull NFL dance or not, shouldn't have to deal with having to pay for the damages to his vehicle. He hopfully has collision or liability insurance....If so,.... Can someone find out who this man is? What his deductable of damage is? I'd rather send a $10.00 money order to this guy than the fools that helped that nutty woman out of debt(if you don't know what I'm talking about, Im sorry. I can't remember if I read it here or not.....so many forums....) Or, maybe Im just foolish.....let me know... -HS
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 7:48:50 PM EDT
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