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Posted: 11/1/2002 8:42:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/1/2002 9:05:35 PM EDT by Venerated]
With their improved interconnecting gas rod system that virtually eliminates recoil and the need for a buffer spring, why aren't these being utilized by the military? They're certainly constructed a hell of a lot better with stronger materials, a 1-piece handguard, etc. Is this the rifle destined to replace the M16? [url]www.zmweapons.com[/url] [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/Venerated%2FZM%2Ejpg[/img] [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/Venerated%2FZM2%2Ejpg[/img]
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 8:47:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 8:50:21 PM EDT
They are sweet, it's just that they are expensive.
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 8:50:45 PM EDT
Can’t have the cool folding stock without a pre-ban lower and the upper and stock in that configuration will set you back right around $ 2,200.00. Great setup as it is most people don’t want to put more $ 3,000.00 into an AR15 not to mention you still would need rings and a scope. The ZM system is just a modernizes OA93. THISISME
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 8:51:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/1/2002 8:54:58 PM EDT by Venerated]
Only a few hundred more. The benefits are worth it and the government can afford it. Check the website. For civilians the post ban model goes for [b]$1485.00[/b] [url]www.zmweapons.com/pricing.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 8:51:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 8:55:36 PM EDT
I want to try out one of those (rear) pistol grips! [>:/]
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 9:03:24 PM EDT
Venerated, No flash hider and a folding stock pinned in the open position, no tri-mount or rear adjustable sight and no vertical grip. Without the cool extras it’s not so cool anymore, it’s just a real expensive AR15. THISISME
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 9:09:40 PM EDT
[url=www.zmweapons.com/images/grip_.jpg]Grip[/url] $55.00!!! [B)]
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 9:11:01 PM EDT
If would have to be far superior to the M16 to be worthwhile. There's the issue of logistics, procurement, training, etc. It's proibably not worth it to the military.
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 9:11:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/1/2002 9:25:40 PM EDT by Venerated]
But you're forgetting the aspects this system offers which really count in a defensive situation. Drastically less recoil for a more consistent target objective, and better craftsmanship (equals more reliability). I don't buy weapons for the [i]cool[/i] factor. I buy them because they work. My 16 inch M4 is bare bones with open sights and it's damn fast to handle. The majority (or maybe the minority but even so) of the members here have spent thousands on their gun collections over the years, some owning firearms worth a few thousand a pop, but we fret over a few hundred more for just 1 rifle?
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 9:23:59 PM EDT
Venerated, What you say is very true but those cool features are functional too. You could just buy a complete OA93 upper for $ 800.00 and get the same recoil reduction or at least very close. THISISME
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 9:28:23 PM EDT
True. But then I wouldn't be the only guy at the range with a ZM. [:D] To each his own. Agree to disagree.
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 9:38:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 9:44:50 PM EDT
Yeah I don't know why they have it all the way forward in that picture. You would think they would know to increase the sight radius as much as possible.
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 9:53:57 PM EDT
What ever happened to the discussion about a group purchase of one of these? Last I recall, nobody could agree on a configuration.
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 10:03:52 PM EDT
Oh man. That would be one group purchase I would have to be in on.
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 10:51:59 PM EDT
Venerated: For the same cash as a pre-ban lower and ZM upper, why not buy an FNC? Then you can get an autosear for $1600 installed and have a full auto ($300 more gets you the three round burst mech. also). AFARR
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 11:35:59 PM EDT
AND THEY ARE BASED IN MA (HOLY SHIEST) WHO KNEW
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 11:48:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Venerated: Only a few hundred more. The benefits are worth it and the government can afford it. Check the website. For civilians the post ban model goes for [b]$1485.00[/b] [url]www.zmweapons.com/pricing.htm[/url]
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Hey, I'm sure they are fine rifles, and if I had spare cash I would be interested in one, but at over $1500 for a preban upper is a bit overpriced if you ask me. And I think the $1500 post ban is for the upper kit alone, with no lower. For that money, I'd rather go with a preban Colt, or if I had to have a post-ban, something with a bit more bang for the buck, like a KAC SR15 RAS Match, but that's just my $0.02.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 2:40:10 AM EDT
They are not superior to a well configured M4. It haS ITS OWN SET OF PROBLEMS. yOU HAVE TO CLEAN THE GAS PISTON AREA AND THE RECOIL SPRING IS WOUND AROUND THE OPERATING ROD AND IT CAN OVERHEAT CAUSING A MALFUNCTION. Oh crap I hit the caps lock and wasnt looking... Well they are not standardized so you cant put an M900 etc on em the M4 is more versitile and can be made just as reliable and accurate. I considered one but I am dropping $5000 on a custom M4 based semi auto instead.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 2:56:12 AM EDT
The exclusive price is what keeps me out of the exclusive ZM club. I would require a preban upper and for that price I could give my 700(P) badly needed MKIV glass, rings, base and some Federal GMM 168gr's. My limit for an upper hovers around $700.00- 800.00.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 3:17:54 AM EDT
Not to mention availability... even if you are willing to fork over the cash for one of these, my understanding from the discussion of the group purchase is that ZM waits until they have at least 75 orders before doing another production run - something that could take up to a year and I believe they ask for 100% up front. Rocko
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 4:24:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: They are not superior to a well configured M4. It haS ITS OWN SET OF PROBLEMS. yOU HAVE TO CLEAN THE GAS PISTON AREA AND THE RECOIL SPRING IS WOUND AROUND THE OPERATING ROD AND IT CAN OVERHEAT CAUSING A MALFUNCTION. Oh crap I hit the caps lock and wasnt looking... Well they are not standardized so you cant put an M900 etc on em the M4 is more versitile and can be made just as reliable and accurate. I considered one but I am dropping $5000 on a custom M4 based semi auto instead.
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DevL: Do you have a source to back that accusation up? I'm not after you. I've just really been interested in one of these for a long time and the budgeting process has made some decent progress lately. If this has some issues I would really like to see a review or report if you know where one exists.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 4:33:49 AM EDT
For civilian purposes, they are just not available. Period. Todays challange....post a link to a retail site that has even 1 ZM/AR for sale. I'd buy one if I could, but I can't, and neither can you.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 4:46:48 AM EDT
It is the same spring design the M96 uses and although Robinson Arms even admits that it may be a problem it is only a problem with sustained full auto use. The semi version you would buy would nopt have that issue. However the handguards dont take things like M900 and other accessories that take up more than that mini 3 rail set up. Its full auto ROF is like 1100 rpm and is too high for full auto use. What I am saying is although it fine for use in a semi it will never be used by the military. Its ONLY advantages are 1. Longer between cleanings and 2. Smaller storage size because of folding stock. Any M4 can match every other aspect or surpass it.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 5:11:19 AM EDT
We tried to do a group buy once, but no luck. I think they might try and organize another group buy within the next year. They are really expensive though, and some replacement parts are not very common...
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 5:13:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Venerated: With their improved interconnecting gas rod system that virtually eliminates recoil and the need for a buffer spring, why aren't these being utilized by the military? They're certainly constructed a hell of a lot better with stronger materials, a 1-piece handguard, etc.
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Who says this system is an "improvement"? The standard gas system works great for me and millions of others. As far as stronger, I haven't broken the standard guns yet, so I don't really see the need for a "stronger" weapon system. Lastly, this weapon hasn't been tested like the M16 has. Do we know for sure it will work as well in all conditions? No.
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