[ARCHIVED THREAD] - No speed limits in Texas (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 6/3/2013 10:12:57 AM EDT
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http://dallasattorney.com/blog/160-no-speed-limits-in-texas.html
Evidently this guy has been getting good results with this defense (he is a lawyer): No Speed Limits in Texas
Believe it or not, there are no speed limits in Texas. You may have heard me mention on the radio that "there are no speed limits in Texas." I've received a ton of email on this issue. Read on, and you'll see I've listed the two relevant Texas statutes. First, I'll explain them, and then I'll give you the full text of each: Explanations of the statutes (both of which can be found in the Texas Transportation Code)... |
God Bless Texas.
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Quoted: That guy is an idiot... The fact that a limit is posted and you exceeded it is proof enough that you were not traveling in a safe and prudent manner. Where the hell did he get his law degree, a cracker jack box? No it isn't. Read your own statutes. You can still be cited, though.
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That guy is an idiot... The fact that a limit is posted and you exceeded it is proof enough that you were not traveling in a safe and prudent manner. Where the hell did he get his law degree, a cracker jack box? I don't care where he got his law degree. I'm just glad he knows how to use it. At least all 5 times I have hired him. Edit: not exactly how I was planning on post 223 |
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Arizona is the same way.
The posted speed limit for any road is what is generally considered to be the safe and prudent speed under normal conditions.Your job as a driver is to drive in a safe and prudent manner. If the flow of traffic dictates that you should drive faster than the posted speed limit sign, then you should. You can actually be ticketed for impeding traffic, even though you are driving at the speed posted. Arizona also has a law that allows them to ticket you for "waste of finite resources"....... basically they ticket you for burning too much gas, rather than for speeding. 
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Quoted: That guy is an idiot... The fact that a limit is posted and you exceeded it is proof enough that you were not traveling in a safe and prudent manner. Where the hell did he get his law degree, a cracker jack box? Why is it 13'ers get a bad reputation around here? |
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That guy is an idiot... The fact that a limit is posted and you exceeded it is proof enough that you were not traveling in a safe and prudent manner. Where the hell did he get his law degree, a cracker jack box? OK. But do us all a favor and stay in the right hand lane, pretty please. |
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Explains why I have not gotten caught. If you look clean, drive a maintained vehicle without faults, they usually leave you alone as long as you are not a hazard to other people or property. Now drive an overloaded vehicle with 4 different tires and calico paint job with burned out lights? You are going to get pulled over. Smoked out tail lamps and license plate cover? Instant stop, more than likely to make probable cause especially if they smell interesting stuff. |
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That guy is an idiot... The fact that a limit is posted and you exceeded it is proof enough that you were not traveling in a safe and prudent manner. Where the hell did he get his law degree, a cracker jack box? COC compliance is difficult at times. But the ignore button makes it better. |
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That guy is an idiot... The fact that a limit is posted and you exceeded it is proof enough that you were not traveling in a safe and prudent manner. Where the hell did he get his law degree, a cracker jack box? Where did your JD come from and when did you pass the bar? What states have admitted you? |
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Everett has been dealing with this issue for a decade and winning. He's far from a goofball. Sometimes his responses can be snotty, though.  I guess once you have a case history behind you of wins, you can be snotty in your responses when dealing with those more ignorant of the law than you. |
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CA also has a basic speed law which is the "Safe for conditions ticket" 22350 I believe Yep, but if you're lane surfing, tailgating, flashing your lights, etc., you are toast. There are two types of speeding, the unsafe aggressive driver type (see above), and the smart stealth driver type. Your choice how you do it, but the consequences are yours alone. |
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Explains why I have not gotten caught. If you look clean, drive a maintained vehicle without faults, they usually leave you alone as long as you are not a hazard to other people or property. Now drive an overloaded vehicle with 4 different tires and calico paint job with burned out lights? You are going to get pulled over. Smoked out tail lamps and license plate cover? Instant stop, more than likely to make probable cause especially if they smell interesting stuff. It also helps being white. That's why I re-up every year. 
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To clarify my drive by comment from earlier: I don't always drive the limit, have been pulled over a few times and never ticketed.
How do you think speed limits are set? Initially (as in newly constructed routes which are pretty rare these days), the designing engineer does a determination based on the characteristics of the facility (curve radii, sight lines etc...). When a limit is reviewed (periodically usually due to changing conditions such as congestion, access characteristics or new construction) we will actually do a speed survey of the existing traffic flow. The "prudent" speed is by definitions from AASHTO, the 85th percentile speed (meaning that out of 100 drivers ranked by speed #85 is right while the 15 faster are "speeding" and the 84 slower are "too slow"). So the posted limit is a number based on what A. An engineer says it should be, or B. what the majority of drivers are actually doing... Tell me how you get "there is no speed limits, drive however fast you want" from that? P.S. all of the above is based on my experience with how the state of Texas sets speed limits on state system roadways, I have no knowledge about how cities or counties do theirs. Also please forgive me for ruffling the lawyer feathers with my obviously over brief and flippant first post. |
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Yes this has certainly been around a long time; hell I've even had people mention in conversation for years. And also Everett used to make regular appearances on Russ Martin's show back in the day before he went totally batshit. Everett seemed to know his stuff.
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This is based on Texas law but what about cities, towns and municipalities and even counties? Can they not make their own speed limit laws and enforce them regardless of what Texas law says? Unless of course Texas law forbids this practice. Municipal governments can enact ordinances, not laws around here. This can include speed limits which certainly do change in every city, but state law is codified just as you see on their web page. |
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To clarify my drive by comment from earlier: I don't always drive the limit, have been pulled over a few times and never ticketed. How do you think speed limits are set? Initially (as in newly constructed routes which are pretty rare these days), the designing engineer does a determination based on the characteristics of the facility (curve radii, sight lines etc...). When a limit is reviewed (periodically usually due to changing conditions such as congestion, access characteristics or new construction) we will actually do a speed survey of the existing traffic flow. The "prudent" speed is by definitions from AASHTO, the 85th percentile speed (meaning that out of 100 drivers ranked by speed #85 is right while the 15 faster are "speeding" and the 84 slower are "too slow"). So the posted limit is a number based on what A. An engineer says it should be, or B. what the majority of drivers are actually doing... Tell me how you get "there is no speed limits, drive however fast you want" from that? P.S. all of the above is based on my experience with how the state of Texas sets speed limits on state system roadways, I have no knowledge about how cities or counties do theirs. Also please forgive me for ruffling the lawyer feathers with my obviously over brief and flippant first post. Which is why you can be on a straight rural 4 lane road, with a median divider, no population at all, but a speed limit of 35mph...because cities never induce an overly slow limit just for revenue production right? I can name you 4 cities that don't even hide it, the speed limit was set like that by the city council for revenue generation and they had an open vote on it. Calvert Texas, Highway 6, the 1mi of the highway north of town, outside population, but inside their "city limit". 4 lanes, median, straight as an arrow, shoulders on each side of all 4 lanes... Anywhere else this would be a 70 or 75mph zone...but the city designated it 45mph because they could. Keep living in that perfect world you described above and invite me into it. I bet there aren't any unconstitutional laws in that world too huh? |
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To clarify my drive by comment from earlier: I don't always drive the limit, have been pulled over a few times and never ticketed. How do you think speed limits are set? Initially (as in newly constructed routes which are pretty rare these days), the designing engineer does a determination based on the characteristics of the facility (curve radii, sight lines etc...). When a limit is reviewed (periodically usually due to changing conditions such as congestion, access characteristics or new construction) we will actually do a speed survey of the existing traffic flow. The "prudent" speed is by definitions from AASHTO, the 85th percentile speed (meaning that out of 100 drivers ranked by speed #85 is right while the 15 faster are "speeding" and the 84 slower are "too slow"). So the posted limit is a number based on what A. An engineer says it should be, or B. what the majority of drivers are actually doing... Tell me how you get "there is no speed limits, drive however fast you want" from that? P.S. all of the above is based on my experience with how the state of Texas sets speed limits on state system roadways, I have no knowledge about how cities or counties do theirs. Also please forgive me for ruffling the lawyer feathers with my obviously over brief and flippant first post. Which is why you can be on a straight rural 4 lane road, with a median divider, no population at all, but a speed limit of 35mph...because cities never induce an overly slow limit just for revenue production right? I can name you 4 cities that don't even hide it, the speed limit was set like that by the city council for revenue generation and they had an open vote on it. Calvert Texas, Highway 6, the 1mi of the highway north of town, outside population, but inside their "city limit". 4 lanes, median, straight as an arrow, shoulders on each side of all 4 lanes... Anywhere else this would be a 70 or 75mph zone...but the city designated it 45mph because they could. Keep living in that perfect world you described above and invite me into it. I bet there aren't any unconstitutional laws in that world too huh? Highlighted part covers pretty much everything you said... Also: Dayum, speed limits to constitutional absolutism in one sentence, bravo sir. |
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Arizona is the same way. The posted speed limit for any road is what is generally considered to be the safe and prudent speed under normal conditions.Your job as a driver is to drive in a safe and prudent manner. If the flow of traffic dictates that you should drive faster than the posted speed limit sign, then you should. You can actually be ticketed for impeding traffic, even though you are driving at the speed posted. Arizona also has a law that allows them to ticket you for "waste of finite resources"....... basically they ticket you for burning too much gas, rather than for speeding.
I SOOOOO wish that people could be ticketed for impeding flow, but they never seem to...at least around here. Go with the flow, should really be the underlying principle here....not 75 IS AS FAST AS YOU CAN GO, PERIOD EVER because the state knows best!!!!!!! |
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I don't buy the argument. Valiant effort for sure, though. In the same vein, if he is able to convince juries of this stuff, it sounds like he is earning his money. How would one be prosecuted for speeding under this logic? I'm with you, don't buy it... I'll pretend I'm a DA trying to hang a speeding charge on someone though, just for fun: Speeder / Cracker jack lawyer contends that the speed at the time of the citation was in fact reasonable and prudent despite exceeding the posted limit. As DA I call the engineer that performed the last speed study or came up with the posted limit by determination, ask a series of questions about how the posted limit was arrived at, and hopefully demonstrate that Mr. Engineer is more reasonable and prudent than Mr. Speeder... Fun fact for anyone still reading at this point: The last facility that I can remember getting its posted limit by determination was the new SH130 toll road (the one with the 85mph limit). The engineer looked at the modern barriers, smooth curves / transitions and long sight lines and decided that it (the facility) could handle the speed. One thing that he (or she?) failed to consider however was the local wildlife, and there was at least one fatality crash involving wild hogs shortly after opening. [/fun fact] |
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I don't buy the argument. Valiant effort for sure, though. In the same vein, if he is able to convince juries of this stuff, it sounds like he is earning his money. How would one be prosecuted for speeding under this logic? Non jury trials. He is convincing Judges of this...not jury's. As such he has set a precedent now with case law so he can reference his previous cases for his defense. |
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I don't buy the argument. Valiant effort for sure, though. In the same vein, if he is able to convince juries of this stuff, it sounds like he is earning his money. How would one be prosecuted for speeding under this logic? I'm with you, don't buy it... I'll pretend I'm a DA trying to hang a speeding charge on someone though, just for fun: Speeder / Cracker jack lawyer contends that the speed at the time of the citation was in fact reasonable and prudent despite exceeding the posted limit. As DA I call the engineer that performed the last speed study or came up with the posted limit by determination, ask a series of questions about how the posted limit was arrived at, and hopefully demonstrate that Mr. Engineer is more reasonable and prudent than Mr. Speeder... Fun fact for anyone still reading at this point: The last facility that I can remember getting its posted limit by determination was the new SH130 toll road (the one with the 85mph limit). The engineer looked at the modern barriers, smooth curves / transitions and long sight lines and decided that it (the facility) could handle the speed. One thing that he (or she?) failed to consider however was the local wildlife, and there was at least one fatality crash involving wild hogs shortly after opening. [/fun fact] What dept. do you work for? |
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I don't buy the argument. Valiant effort for sure, though. In the same vein, if he is able to convince juries of this stuff, it sounds like he is earning his money. How would one be prosecuted for speeding under this logic? I'm with you, don't buy it... I'll pretend I'm a DA trying to hang a speeding charge on someone though, just for fun: Speeder / Cracker jack lawyer contends that the speed at the time of the citation was in fact reasonable and prudent despite exceeding the posted limit. As DA I call the engineer that performed the last speed study or came up with the posted limit by determination, ask a series of questions about how the posted limit was arrived at, and hopefully demonstrate that Mr. Engineer is more reasonable and prudent than Mr. Speeder... Fun fact for anyone still reading at this point: The last facility that I can remember getting its posted limit by determination was the new SH130 toll road (the one with the 85mph limit). The engineer looked at the modern barriers, smooth curves / transitions and long sight lines and decided that it (the facility) could handle the speed. One thing that he (or she?) failed to consider however was the local wildlife, and there was at least one fatality crash involving wild hogs shortly after opening. [/fun fact] What dept. do you work for? Care to venture a guess? Shouldn't be too hard from just this thread, should be really easy if you look at my older posts (I've made no secret of it). |
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I don't buy the argument. Valiant effort for sure, though. In the same vein, if he is able to convince juries of this stuff, it sounds like he is earning his money. How would one be prosecuted for speeding under this logic? I'm with you, don't buy it... I'll pretend I'm a DA trying to hang a speeding charge on someone though, just for fun: Speeder / Cracker jack lawyer contends that the speed at the time of the citation was in fact reasonable and prudent despite exceeding the posted limit. As DA I call the engineer that performed the last speed study or came up with the posted limit by determination, ask a series of questions about how the posted limit was arrived at, and hopefully demonstrate that Mr. Engineer is more reasonable and prudent than Mr. Speeder... Fun fact for anyone still reading at this point: The last facility that I can remember getting its posted limit by determination was the new SH130 toll road (the one with the 85mph limit). The engineer looked at the modern barriers, smooth curves / transitions and long sight lines and decided that it (the facility) could handle the speed. One thing that he (or she?) failed to consider however was the local wildlife, and there was at least one fatality crash involving wild hogs shortly after opening. [/fun fact] What dept. do you work for? Care to venture a guess? Shouldn't be too hard from just this thread, should be really easy if you look at my older posts (I've made no secret of it). Didn't look. DPS? |
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That guy is an idiot... The fact that a limit is posted and you exceeded it is proof enough that you were not traveling in a safe and prudent manner. Where the hell did he get his law degree, a cracker jack box? God I hope you arent a cop. Someone doesn't know what txdot is... |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That guy is an idiot... The fact that a limit is posted and you exceeded it is proof enough that you were not traveling in a safe and prudent manner. Where the hell did he get his law degree, a cracker jack box? God I hope you arent a cop. Someone doesn't know what txdot is... Less then a cop? |
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I follow two rules: 1. When driving by myself down a stretch of road, do not exceed the speed limit by 5mph or more. 2. When driving with multiple other drivers around me, do not be the fastest driver in the vicinity. #2 in particular saved my butt one day on I-35 just south of Austin (a particularly noteworthy stretch of road for zealous revenue enhancement traffic enforcement). I have no idea which one of us the cop hit with the radar gun, but he pulled over the guy passing me on the left. |
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The OP topic isn't about how TXDOT comes up with posted speed limits. That's all fine and dandy.
The topic is about how TEXAS STATE LAW defines speeding as only that you're "speeding" if you're driving at a rate of speed that is "unreasonable and imprudent under the circumstances then existing." The posted speed limit on a given road may be 65, but on a warm, dry, sunny and clear day with no other traffic, it may not be unreasonable or imprudent under the circumstances to travel at a speed somewhat higher than 65. Same road with similar conditions with lots of traffic going at or under the posted speed limit, then it could easily be shown to be not reasonable or prudent to travel much faster than the speed limit. How TXDOT comes up with the limit appears to mean absolutely SQUAT when looking at the LAW. |
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The OP topic isn't about how TXDOT comes up with posted speed limits. That's all fine and dandy. The topic is about how TEXAS STATE LAW defines speeding as only that you're "speeding" if you're driving at a rate of speed that is "unreasonable and imprudent under the circumstances then existing." The posted speed limit on a given road may be 65, but on a warm, dry, sunny and clear day with no other traffic, it may not be unreasonable or imprudent under the circumstances to travel at a speed somewhat higher than 65. Same road with similar conditions with lots of traffic going at or under the posted speed limit, then it could easily be shown to be not reasonable or prudent to travel much faster than the speed limit. How TXDOT comes up with the limit appears to mean absolutely SQUAT when looking at the LAW. You come close to the implication the the "posted speed limit" (trem used loosely, so as not to start a semantics squabble) is the maximum permitted under the most adverse conditions. |
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Arizona is the same way. The posted speed limit for any road is what is generally considered to be the safe and prudent speed under normal conditions.Your job as a driver is to drive in a safe and prudent manner. If the flow of traffic dictates that you should drive faster than the posted speed limit sign, then you should. You can actually be ticketed for impeding traffic, even though you are driving at the speed posted. Arizona also has a law that allows them to ticket you for "waste of finite resources"....... basically they ticket you for burning too much gas, rather than for speeding.
I SOOOOO wish that people could be ticketed for impeding flow, but they never seem to...at least around here. Go with the flow, should really be the underlying principle here....not 75 IS AS FAST AS YOU CAN GO, PERIOD EVER because the state knows best!!!!!!! 1998 I got pulled over for impeding the flow of traffic on I35 through downtown San Antonio. I was doing 55 in a 65 going slow to let a buddy catch up to me. I was leading the way and he didn't know how to get to the destination. Cop pulled me over and told me I was going too slow...so he stopped me and plugged up an entire lane of traffic with he and I clogging up the interstate to tell me that 10mph below the limit is too slow. Yea...0mph isn't too slow, but 55mph is. 8hr later on the way out of the town I got into a wreck and the person jumped out of their vehicle and ran away yelling "No policia'!". Instead of catching illegal imigrants who don't know how to drive and wreck into other people, the cops are pulling people over for 10mph under the limit... (didn't get a ticket, only a warning) |