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Posted: 10/14/2002 6:12:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2002 6:22:27 PM EDT by RipMeyer]
[url]http://www.bushmaster.com/le/weapons/bushmaster_m203_m4_40mm_grenade_.htm[/url] That M203 is the real thing. [img]http://www.bushmaster.com/le/images/Rifle_M203.gif[/img] The Bushmaster 40-mm M203 Grenade Launcher is a lightweight single shot attachment for the AR15 / M16 / XM15E2S family of weapons (shown here on Bushmaster 16" Dissipator Carbine and Bushmaster 20" M16 Type Rifle). It consists of a handguard and barrel/receiver assembly that attaches to the barrel of the rifle or carbine and a quadrant sight assembly that attaches to the carrying handle of the upper receiver. This unit includes all design improvements and conforms to the latest military specifications of Jan. '93. More than 40 different projectiles are available for the M203 including training rounds, tear gas and smoke, non-lethal rubber rounds, buck shot,[b][size=3] air-burst fragmentation and high explosives.,[/b][/size=3][shock] FEATURES: Folding Leaf Sight Assembly - range selection from 50 to 250 meters in 50 meter increments Molded Glass-filled Nylon Handguard - replaces original handguard - fits over barrel of rifle Quadrant Sight Assembly - attached to rifle's carrying handle - provides range selection from 50 to 400 meters in 50 meter increments Barrel Assembly - Aluminum Barrel and Glass-filled Nylon Handgrip reciprocate on tracks of the receiver assembly Receiver Assembly - a forged aluminum frame houses firing mechanism and ejection system. It mounts on the barrel of the rifle and supports the M203 barrel assembly. SPECIFICATIONS: Caliber:[b] 40 millimeter grenade[/b][shock] Length of Launcher: 15.3 inches Barrel Length: 12 inches Rifling Twist: 6 Lands Weight - Unloaded: 3 Lbs. Weight - Loaded: 3.5 Lbs. Weight of M16 and M203: approx. 11 Lbs. Operation: Pump Action, Breech Loading Single Shot Trigger Pull: 5 lbs. Muzzle Velocity: 71 Meters/Sec. Maximum Effective Range (area targets): 1,148 ft Maximum Effective Range (point targets): 492 ft.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 6:17:27 PM EDT
I guess the answer to that is in your own post isn't it? "tear gas and smoke, non-lethal rubber rounds,"
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 6:20:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2002 6:23:40 PM EDT by RipMeyer]
I can think of other ways to deliver tear gas. NO LEO should need to have a 40mm grenade or the launcher.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 6:22:49 PM EDT
A lot of companies are marketing military equipment to police agencies in order to improve their bottom line after their fat government contracts run out. Look at a Gall's catalog sometime--a lot of shit in there has no legitimate LE purpose. However, many cops are former military, and some can't tell the difference between police duty and military duty (hard to do when you've gone through rigorous state indoctrination and you're of limited intelligence to begin with). Do cops *need* M-203s? Hell no, they should never be firing HE rounds or WP, just CS or whatever gas or smoke which is readily available in 37mm, so NO, stricly speaking, there is no real reason for this weapon.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 6:29:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 6:34:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2002 6:36:03 PM EDT by RipMeyer]
Originally Posted By shotar: Since your odds of being on the recieving end are pretty small considering all here are law abiding citizens who will never need or have contact with the police.
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"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be even a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." - Winston Churchill If the police have that, what else are they thinking about getting? More TANKS like in LA or WACO? they are crossing the line to becoming military. That means a police state.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 6:39:19 PM EDT
Tanks? COOL! (In best GWB accent.) Yawn.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 6:40:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RipMeyer: I can think of other ways to deliver tear gas. NO LEO should need to have a 40mm grenade or the launcher.
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In the context of anti personnel rounds, I agree with you. But, like the specs say, there are non lethal/less lethal rounds available. Why not have it attached to a rifle? You have the option of first trying less lethal munitions and if that doesn't solve the problem or if the bad guy escalates then you have the option of deadly force. The 37mm copies of the M203 are not constructed the same as the M203. They can't handle most of the less leathal/gas/distraction loads that are available to L.E.. They are designed for smoke and flares.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 6:44:53 PM EDT
Me thinks somebody's been rousted by the po-po one too many times and is jealous of thier toys. [}:D]
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 6:45:35 PM EDT
Law enforcement needs all of the tools it can get to protect your freedoms in this great democracy. The police NEED the option of having a rifled m203 barrel as all HE rounds are armed by the spinning of the projectile. Smooth bores won't cut it.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 6:46:17 PM EDT
I think a better question would be when have you ever seen a cop with one of these. Cops can get a lot of things, that doesn't mean we do. The real question should be why people who can't have the real thing, purchase them.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 6:55:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RipMeyer:
That means a police state.
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(Again in best GWB...) Police State? Like, a State with a whole bunch of police? COOL! Like Texas, Super Sized! Don't Mess With Texas, Hell! Don't Mess With The Police State! Hehehe! Stretch... Scratch... Yawn...
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 6:57:51 PM EDT
Because not everyone puts their hands over their heads and says....."Gee officer, you got me....I give" I expect this would be used by SWAT personnel for different options listed in the add : the M203 including training rounds, tear gas and smoke, non-lethal rubber rounds, buck shot. And yes, high explosives too.... to blow locks off doors or doors off hinges. It does happen. I think the bigger question here is why does it bother you so much?
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 7:32:23 PM EDT
i don't give two shits about the cops having them ... as long as i can have them too
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 7:36:56 PM EDT
Why does anyone need [s]balaclavas[/s] [b]BAKLAVA!![/b] [img]http://www.bakingshop.com/panos/baklava-s.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 7:41:03 PM EDT
OK, all you freedom stomping JBTs can have balaclavas, but they have to look like this: [img]http://www.villmarkshistorier.no/turomraader/finnmark/pasvik/baklava.JPG[/img]
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 7:44:17 PM EDT
for people who spin their tires at car washes of course!
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 7:47:48 PM EDT
DScott.... A little OT, but does the graphic under your name have any meaning other than looking like a sideways 8....or an infinity sign? Any relation to your sig line?
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 7:55:37 PM EDT
A couple of years ago I had a discussion with a DefTec rep who stated that the industry was moving to a 40mm standard and the 37mm was going the way of the dodo bird. Something about larger payload, better performance, and more variety of munitions, especially crowd control. (rubber buckshot etc) I guess he wasn't pulling my leg after all.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 8:06:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RipMeyer: I can think of other ways to deliver tear gas. NO LEO should need to have a 40mm grenade or the launcher.
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You may never know when you might that!
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 8:15:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2002 8:19:06 PM EDT by AR15fan]
The munitions manufacturers (less leathal and otherwise) are not happy about having to make their products in both 37mm and 40mm. They have been pushing hard for standardization to one caliber. Since the military spends big $$$ on the 40mm, I expect it's the 37mm that will go away. Edited to add i should read the entire thread before posting, bwecuase John has already posted the correct answer. Although it was hard to find amid all the knee jerk reactions.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 8:15:22 PM EDT
LAPD swat has a M60 and a APC.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 8:18:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 8:28:26 PM EDT
I don't know about LEOs but the ATF needs them. Where will the spark that sets the gun nut's house come from?......not that they mean to.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 8:39:22 PM EDT
A AR carbine with either a M203 or a 12ga under the barrel would be just about the perfect LE weapon. The launcher or masterkey could be kept loaded with beanbags, and lethal backup is still just a slight move of the right hand away.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 8:39:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4: DScott.... A little OT, but does the graphic under your name have any meaning other than looking like a sideways 8....or an infinity sign? Any relation to your sig line?
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Yes and yes. Infinity sign, done incredibly well, I thought- very cosmic and "all" that. Kind of a light-hearted reference to one-ness and stuff. The sig line changes, but is indirectly related to the above. I'm sure we'd agree about what "incredible" things people believe...
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 8:40:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2002 8:41:01 PM EDT by DScott]
Originally Posted By Aimless:
Originally Posted By DScott: Why does anyone need [s]balaclavas[/s] [b]BAKLAVA!![/b] [url]http://www.bakingshop.com/panos/baklava-s.jpg[/url]
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I love it, but my ears get cold when I shovel the driveway no matter how many I stick on! ...
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Maybe you need the sticky-buns-Princess-Leia style... [img]http://www.fschobbies.com/scifi/starwars/art/leia.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 8:46:07 PM EDT
I personally don't think any [b]CIVILIAN[/b] should have any weapon that I, as a free, law-abiding citizen cannot purchase easily at the local gun-store. Scott
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 8:50:36 PM EDT
DScott, I think I have seen the band Tool use that symbol in their live show, a video and some of their cover art, IIRC. They are very into that type of stuff and Sacred Geometry and all that. Cool.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 8:55:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DScottHewitt: I personally don't think any [b]CIVILIAN[/b] should have any weapon that I, as a free, law-abiding citizen cannot purchase easily at the local gun-store. Scott
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You cant buy a masterkey in Virginia? I can here. We need to get the ATF to reclassify the M203 itslef as no longer a regestered Dangerous Device and just as AOW or SBS. Cause theres lots of ammo other than the HE and HEDP grenades that would be legal.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 9:36:36 PM EDT
For the same reason you "need" another AR,AK,FAL,Sig,Glock, S&W,Colt, Ruger,Beretta,Winchester,Mossberg,Marlin,Luge­r,H&K,...........
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 9:52:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RipMeyer: [url]http://www.bushmaster.com/le/weapons/bushmaster_m203_m4_40mm_grenade_.htm[/url] That M203 is the real thing. [url]http://www.bushmaster.com/le/images/Rifle_M203.gif[/url] The Bushmaster 40-mm M203 Grenade Launcher is a lightweight single shot attachment for the AR15 / M16 / XM15E2S family of weapons (shown here on Bushmaster 16" Dissipator Carbine and Bushmaster 20" M16 Type Rifle). It consists of a handguard and barrel/receiver assembly that attaches to the barrel of the rifle or carbine and a quadrant sight assembly that attaches to the carrying handle of the upper receiver. This unit includes all design improvements and conforms to the latest military specifications of Jan. '93. More than 40 different projectiles are available for the M203 including training rounds, tear gas and smoke, non-lethal rubber rounds, buck shot,[b][size=3] air-burst fragmentation and high explosives.,[/b][/size=3][shock] FEATURES: Folding Leaf Sight Assembly - range selection from 50 to 250 meters in 50 meter increments Molded Glass-filled Nylon Handguard - replaces original handguard - fits over barrel of rifle Quadrant Sight Assembly - attached to rifle's carrying handle - provides range selection from 50 to 400 meters in 50 meter increments Barrel Assembly - Aluminum Barrel and Glass-filled Nylon Handgrip reciprocate on tracks of the receiver assembly Receiver Assembly - a forged aluminum frame houses firing mechanism and ejection system. It mounts on the barrel of the rifle and supports the M203 barrel assembly. SPECIFICATIONS: Caliber:[b] 40 millimeter grenade[/b][shock] Length of Launcher: 15.3 inches Barrel Length: 12 inches Rifling Twist: 6 Lands Weight - Unloaded: 3 Lbs. Weight - Loaded: 3.5 Lbs. Weight of M16 and M203: approx. 11 Lbs. Operation: Pump Action, Breech Loading Single Shot Trigger Pull: 5 lbs. Muzzle Velocity: 71 Meters/Sec. Maximum Effective Range (area targets): 1,148 ft Maximum Effective Range (point targets): 492 ft.
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Yeah and the real pisser is it probably cost less to LEO's than what we pay for a rat preban!
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 10:18:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1_153_370_371_407: i don't give two shits about the cops having them ... as long as i can have them too
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Exactly!!!!!!!! This whole "why should cops be allowed to have one of these...." Sounds just like my sister why i could possibly ever need an AK47.. or AR15 I get the same crap for owning a pistol, the exact question I was asked by an aunt was "What can you hunt with a handgun?" Now whithstanding it is a 9mm...... I have them because I want them, they are fun, and the 2nd is not about duck hunting... I want whatever the LE community and Military community can have. Not because I might go deer hunting with HE rounds, but because I cannot see the future and one day I might have to protect my family from armor or something with them.... (Besides, when was th elast time we saw a BG use an M203 in a crime?)
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 10:32:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cyrax777: LAPD swat has a M60 and a APC.
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Dude, lapd has everything.. They've got assorted .50 bmg rifles... eesh. "To protect and serve".... [BD]
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 3:21:10 AM EDT
Because 37mm and 12-ga are considered "legacy rounds" for delivering less-lethal munitions and are also considered obsolete. We use 37mm to deliver sponge, "stinger" (rubber pellets), baton, fin-stabilized baton, and non-pyrotechnic gas rounds. We will use the 40mm to deliver all of the same kinds, but at longer ranges with far beter accuracy. 37mm is not rifled, uses black powder as a propellant, and has limited range and accuracy. 40mm is a far better caliber for delivering less-lethal munitions at longer ranges and delivering gas rounds. 40mm is the new LE standard. Departments all over the country are ditching their 37mm systems because they just don't cut it any more. The M203 is one solution, but most folks are buying the Sage or DefTech 6 shot launchers, for more rounds on target more quickly. In fact, I just dropped a PO for two DefTech launchers a couple of weeks ago. BTW, almost anyone can buy these launchers, under Federal Law, as long as one pays the tax stamp, and I know of no PD anywhere who has ever bought any HE, HEDP or any of the other standard military rounds for these.
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 4:29:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott:
Originally Posted By M4: DScott.... A little OT, but does the graphic under your name have any meaning other than looking like a sideways 8....or an infinity sign? Any relation to your sig line?
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Yes and yes. Infinity sign, done incredibly well, I thought- very cosmic and "all" that. Kind of a light-hearted reference to one-ness and stuff. The sig line changes, but is indirectly related to the above. I'm sure we'd agree about what "incredible" things people believe...
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It's pretty cool, although I had thought it was a mobius strip.
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 6:16:18 AM EDT
As a side note, some depts. use 12 ga. shotguns to deliver less-lethal, bean bag, rubber projectiles, gas etc. The problem is that those guns are still full functional 12 ga shotguns. There have been a few incidents where live rounds have found there way into "less-lethal" designated shotguns. You can imagine the results. 37mm guns are made to no particular standard, trigger, sights, safeties, barrel lenght. They are built to stand up to rounds that are less powerful than the 40mm. 40mm, The military has designed these weapons to work with the M-16 family. If LEO's have AR's they can work with those too. The are also standardized weapons, with specific MIL-SPEC's. They are also single shot weapons. So each round has to be handled individually prior to firing. So messing up the ammo you WANT to fire shouldn't happen. Since I know of nobody even selling military 40mm ammo to LE, it would be tough to "accidentaly" load one of Uncle Sams rounds if all you have is, civilian gas, bean bag, and rubber ball rounds. The M-16/M203 or AR/M203 combo also gives the officer using less-lethal the immediate ability to defend themself or others, if the less-lethal doesn't work. If the question is why does LE need an M-203 to lob MIL-SPEC lethal ammo? Then the answer is they don't.
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 7:33:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2002 7:35:24 AM EDT by cyrax777]
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
Originally Posted By DScottHewitt: I personally don't think any [b]CIVILIAN[/b] should have any weapon that I, as a free, law-abiding citizen cannot purchase easily at the local gun-store. Scott
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You cant buy a masterkey in Virginia? I can here. We need to get the ATF to reclassify the M203 itslef as no longer a regestered Dangerous Device and just as AOW or SBS. Cause theres lots of ammo other than the HE and HEDP grenades that would be legal.
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what WE means by easily is without all the NFA bullsh*t and legaly. edit to fix typo
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 8:56:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2002 8:58:56 AM EDT by SteyrAUG]
Originally Posted By Duke76: high explosives too.... to blow locks off doors or doors off hinges. It does happen.
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Man, I hope you were kidding.
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 9:07:21 AM EDT
to protect and serve
Link Posted: 10/15/2002 1:46:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: Why does anyone need [s]balaclavas[/s] [b]BAKLAVA!![/b] [url]http://www.bakingshop.com/panos/baklava-s.jpg[/url]
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YUMMY! [:)]
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