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Posted: 10/14/2002 1:23:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2002 1:24:40 AM EDT by ProfessorEvil]
Does anyone really feel bad about this? Protesters at the School of Americas may not be transferred to the Minimum Security Federal Prison in Kali and instead shipped off to the local county joint, and forced to stay with "thieves, rapists and murderers." I think I left my tears in the other room for this one. [url]http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/South/10/14/jailed.protesters.ap/index.html[/url]
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 1:47:07 AM EDT
God, leftists are still hung up over the School of the Americas? That's like, so 1980's.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 4:31:33 AM EDT
They broke the law and now they are receiving their punishment. They should be happy that we have the military out there fighting for our rights and doing what is best for our country or they might have just ended up having their fucking heads chopped off.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 4:40:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: They broke the law and now they are receiving their punishment. They should be happy that we have the military out there fighting for our rights and doing what is best for our country or they might have just ended up having their fucking heads chopped off.
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The very thing they are protesting is the fact that some of the people we have trained have done those things in their home nations.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 4:47:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Redmanfms:
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: They broke the law and now they are receiving their punishment. They should be happy that we have the military out there fighting for our rights and doing what is best for our country or they might have just ended up having their fucking heads chopped off.
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The very thing they are protesting is the fact that some of the people we have trained have done those things in their home nations.
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So why are they crying to us about it? They can trot their little asses down to whatever nation comitted the crime and protest there. Oh no, they couldn't do that. Imagine how dangerous that would be and their prisons would be terrible. Let's just bother the US military and let all of our friends complain when we get in trouble. Personally, I just don't think that 6 months is enough. I'd let em sit for a year at least.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 4:55:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ponyboy:
Originally Posted By Redmanfms:
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: They broke the law and now they are receiving their punishment. They should be happy that we have the military out there fighting for our rights and doing what is best for our country or they might have just ended up having their fucking heads chopped off.
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The very thing they are protesting is the fact that some of the people we have trained have done those things in their home nations.
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So why are they crying to us about it? They can trot their little asses down to whatever nation comitted the crime and protest there. Oh no, they couldn't do that. Imagine how dangerous that would be and their prisons would be terrible. Let's just bother the US military and let all of our friends complain when we get in trouble. Personally, I just don't think that 6 months is enough. I'd let em sit for a year at least.
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Well, I don't really agree with their politics, but it isn't a radical leap of logic to think that protesting the people who trained the murderers might have some kind of impact. They protest here, because the bad guys were trained here. Personally, I don't really like the idea of our government training foreign personnel who we know are going to use the training they gained to commit human rights violations; much like I don't like the idea of the military training LEAs to kill people and burn shit down in this country.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 5:05:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 5:10:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 5:24:40 AM EDT
A friend of mine on another list was commandant of the School of the Americas when it was based in Pananama. He says that the lies told by liberals about what goes on their is bull. Someplace I have a copy of a letter he wrote to a magazine defending the school, but I cannot track it down right now. GunLvr
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 5:25:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Redmanfms:
Originally Posted By Ponyboy:
Originally Posted By Redmanfms:
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: They broke the law and now they are receiving their punishment. They should be happy that we have the military out there fighting for our rights and doing what is best for our country or they might have just ended up having their fucking heads chopped off.
View Quote
The very thing they are protesting is the fact that some of the people we have trained have done those things in their home nations.
View Quote
So why are they crying to us about it? They can trot their little asses down to whatever nation comitted the crime and protest there. Oh no, they couldn't do that. Imagine how dangerous that would be and their prisons would be terrible. Let's just bother the US military and let all of our friends complain when we get in trouble. Personally, I just don't think that 6 months is enough. I'd let em sit for a year at least.
View Quote
Well, I don't really agree with their politics, but it isn't a radical leap of logic to think that protesting the people who trained the murderers might have some kind of impact. They protest here, because the bad guys were trained here. Personally, I don't really like the idea of our government training foreign personnel who we know are going to use the training they gained to commit human rights violations; much like I don't like the idea of the military training LEAs to kill people and burn shit down in this country.
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I see exactly what you are saying. Hell, I don't like the fact that we trained the Afghans to fight the Russians then we had to turn around and kick the shit out of the people we trained 20 years later. I don't like the fact that we sell arms to Iraq and train them to help us with Iran and 20 years later we end up going to war with them for what is about to be the second time. While the US military may be a catalyst in making these guys more efficient killers, they aren't making these guys do what they're doing. All I'm saying is that if these people want to stop what is going on they need to go to the source, which they know as well as you and I, will get them nowhere. If these people want some training then they are going to get it somewhere. Would you rather it be us helping them out or the Taliban? Where then would their loyalties lie? It's all a political game. Yeah it sucks, but life isn't fair. It never has been and it never will. I understand why these people are protesting, they're simply trying to make the world a better place for others, but it doesn't always work that way. They know they are breaking the law and they should accept their punishement instead of crying about it. They've had chances to change their MO of going about what they're doing. They didn't and now they're in jail. How many chances did they expect to receive?
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 5:36:15 AM EDT
Here is the letter: As a former Commandant of the School of the Americas, I've heard all the same alligations with little or no proof for years. Several years ago, I wrote a letter to Father Roy Bourgeois, the founder of SOA Watch. Dear Father Bourgeois, I just finished reading your article in the July/August issue of Maryknoll and found it most interesting. I had the privilege of serving as the Commandant of US Army School of the Americas from 1982 to 1984 and I am quite familiar with the accusations. I served in Uruguay for two years, and to complete the picture, I've been married to a Salvadorian for thirty-two years. I enlisted in the Army as a private . After meeting and marrying my wife, one of the first trips we took together was to El Salvador (1961). It was also my first experience in Latin America and it was an eye opener. My wife's family would be categorized as middle-class here...... I quickly learned that the information I received from the Embassy was less than accurate. According to them the place was full of communists and anti-Americanism was everywhere. This did not coincide with what I had discovered in the nightly walks I took around Santa Anna each evening with my brother in law. What was clear was that the ordinary people where living in s..., and any threat that existed was due to how they were treated. I NEVER forgot that experience and vowed if I was ever in a position to do something I would. All of this is a long winded way of saying that I don't believe I am your stereotypical army officer--if such a creature exists. I agree one hundred per cent with the unspoken sentiments of the article--but not your conclusions. Closing the school would be a mistake. That's not to say that improvements--LOTS--of improvements can't be made. That was my goal when I took over. The school itself is not evil. The people who serve there are not evil. Quite the contrary, both the school and the people there try their very best to teach and to show how the military should protect and defend the people. I was the last commandant while the school was in Panama and unlike Ft. Bennning, people just didn't attend the school they lived it twenty-fours a day. Everyone lived the school--there wasn't a lot else to do except what we are selves developed (no Disneyland). Consequently, the Latins and U.S. families lived together, worked together and played together. The same for their children--a large plus--in my mind. The Latins had an unique opportunity to live and interact with one of our best advertisements for Democracy--the an average American family. We often forget that while often hit ourselves over the head for not "knowing" the Latins, we forget that they don't "know" us OR EACH OTHER! The average Latin officer or NCO from Chile knows almost zero about his counterpart from Peru/Brazil/Honduras etc. USARSA provides another unique opportunity for them to learn about one another and their shared problems--all (hopefully) under the guidance of a concerned and dedicated U.S. cadre. In my opinion, this opportunity alone justifies the existence of the school. If I have any argument with your logic [my nuns wouldn't believe I would do this] it's with your three basic--and unstated assumptions: 1. That atrocities didn't occur before the School of the Americas. 2. There would be less atrocities if the School didn't exist. 3. There are less Democratic governments in Latin America since the establishment of the School of the Americas. I once told a reporter who was interviewing me following your line of reasoning, that I and the School, would accept the blame for everything that had gone wrong in Latin America since the School started--if she would give us credit for all the improvements. A common accusation--often from clerics--is that "the Latin military will never change." Where would the Catholic Church in Latin America be today if that argument had been followed? Historically has the Church's actions always been in the best interest of the common man in LA? Has it changed? The military can be changed--as the Church was changed--by good people working hard and making great personal sacrifices over a long period of time. I am applauding, not attacking my Church when I say that no institution in Latin America has changed more--and for the better. You use a lot of numbers of graduates of USARSA to bolster your argument for closing the school and Father I hope you won't be offended if I say that following that reasoning, all seminaries should be closed because 100%--not 50%, or 80%--but 100% of the priests who molested children attended seminaries, so all Catholic Churches should be closed because all the molesters worked there, or etc. etc. etc. The Church didn't change over night and neither will the Latin military, but they have changed and will continue to change--if we don't ignore them. It would be easy to just ignore the military and hope they'll go away. But they won't and we can not ignore the military's role in Latin America--we can't! Rather than ignore them we must work hard for change, and we can't do that if we don't have a presence. In my opinion, USARSA (not at Ft. Benning) is the best tool for change that the U.S. has and it should be improved and expanded. When I took over USARSA, I instituted a policy that ALL courses would receive instruction in the Geneva Convention and the Rules of Land Warfare. For the Command and General Staff Course, I made ethics a mandatory subject and it was taught by my Catholic Chaplain, (with some from me). This course and the instructor, were deeply resented by many of the students--but they not only took it, they participated--because I said they would and I was there in the class room! I once found myself in the position of making policy when one student asked how were they to determine if the captured terrorist/patriots were to be treated as Prisoners of War under the Geneva Convention? I didn't hesitate in my answer, and I still can't think of an better one, (though I am sure you can, and should--why don't you?). I said "if the police can handle the situation they can treat them as criminals--but if the military is called in, than they must be treated as POWs!" Every class repeatedly stressed respect for human rights--and it wasn't stressed ostensibly. My point is, where else would they have received this information if the school didn't exist and they were forced to pay attention? Where? Who will talk to them about Democracy and Democratic institutions? Who? Where? In their school system? From the Maryknoll fathers? Where? My officers and I did this in the classroom--in the club--in the church and in our homes! Was it enough? No! Was I satisfied that I had solved the problems of the military in Latin America? Hell No! But Father, I do believe that rather than curse the darkness I had at least lit a candle or two. There are still a lot of unlit candles laying around out there--waiting for someone with matches. Really Father, I support you in your efforts to improve the lot of the people of Latin America. Just remember that the military are also people--and they won't go away no matter what we wish. It is easy to say "ABOLISH (fill in the blanks)," and a hell of a lot more work and pain to make it better. But the Church exists today in LA solely because the Church fought the "Abolishers."
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 5:38:14 AM EDT
[cont.] If I may be so bold, I would suggest that rather than trying to abolish the school, your organization should get deeply involved into turning it into the type of organization you feel it should be. The Army is full of old generals and colonels who would like to do the right thing--really. Some suggestions: 1. Insure that superior U.S. people (and wives) are assigned to the school--and that they are promoted. When I was there the promotion rate for the officers serving there was far below the army average. Ditto for selection for command and senior service school. 2. Same for the Commandant. I don't remember any Commandant who was ever promoted. As I wrote to my general "send colonels with a future, not just a past." 3. What is the process for student election? Are the right people being selected? Who approves them? How can the process be improved? 4. What is being taught! What Is Being Taught! WHAT IS BEING TAUGHT! Sit in the classes--all the classes--and check. It's easy, none are classified. I did enjoy your article Father and while I may be retired from the Army, I've not retired my feelings for the people of Latin America. I hope you accept this letter in the spirit in which I tried to write it. Not very well I am afraid and I realize that this poorly written document will probably have little impact. Still my candle lighting instincts do die hard--Buena Suerte y--ADALANTE--Poder a la Gente!! "UNO PARA TODOS, Y TODOS PARA UNO" Sincerely Nicholas A. Andreacchio Col[ret],Armor USA
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 5:44:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Redmanfms:
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: They broke the law and now they are receiving their punishment. They should be happy that we have the military out there fighting for our rights and doing what is best for our country or they might have just ended up having their fucking heads chopped off.
View Quote
The very thing they are protesting is the fact that some of the people we have trained have done those things in their home nations.
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Actually, the prisoners are from Indiana and California, according to the article
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 5:48:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Avtomat:
Originally Posted By Redmanfms:
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: They broke the law and now they are receiving their punishment. They should be happy that we have the military out there fighting for our rights and doing what is best for our country or they might have just ended up having their fucking heads chopped off.
View Quote
The very thing they are protesting is the fact that some of the people we have trained have done those things in their home nations.
View Quote
Actually, the prisoners are from Indiana and California, according to the article
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I think he was referring to what the soldiers we trained are doing when they return to their home country, not the protestors.
Link Posted: 10/14/2002 5:53:25 AM EDT
Just my input, but I was on Ft. Benning and saw those dumb bastards. I was also on Ft. Benning Sept 11, and the base was locked down. Within weeks, new fences and guard posts were up at the gates. Traffic was a mess, and all sorts of people (me included) were pressed into service as gate guards. By the time these jerks came around, things had settled down somewhat, but they knew the situation was not normal. They chose to protest anyway, interfering with the already overtaxed security forces on Ft. Benning and interfering with base operation (one of the gates was closed for a while, I got turned back about two times). I think one of the woman handcuffed herself to the gate. What they did was irresponsible, potentially dangerous, and does not remotely effect the people responsible for the former SOA. If they were serious about their views they would write a letter to congress. They deserve what they got.
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